Teachers - back to school

dogface

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Worm-

There is a difference between typos, and spelling for the record. Most items on a bulletin board are not proofread for grammatical or spelling errors as it is not a formal environment, but you can easily spot a typo verses a spelling error!

Ex.) Error (correct)
Airer (Misspelled word)
or Erorr (Typo)

just helping a Mensa VP out!
 

dogface

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LMAO!

I really thought those made the post!!! I thought at least I would get some credit for making up "airer".

Tough Crowd!

LOL! ;)
 

dr. freeze

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well i have had teachers that repeat the same videos year after year....have also had teachers that give you the math assignment and play video games the rest of the period then get pissed if you ask them a question

all in all, and i went to a pretty "good" school as far as standards across the boards i have seen, about 1/3 of the teachers are this garbage

and all of this "altering"...maybe 5% of the teachers go to an extent of even near the one that you describe...and as you have seen in my post, i recommend huge raises for them

are the bottom 1/3 of doctors like this??? lol...no or they wouldn't make a dime....if there was an environment where they didn't have to do anything and could plug a patient into a video all day would 1/3 of the doctors be like this? heck yeah
 

dr. freeze

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ferdville...those 10 weeks "without pay" is a ridiculous argument because we are talking about yearly salaries compared across the board...and many teachers i know take on summertime employment and can make another 5-10-15K depending on how hard they want to work...

most jobs don't offer such a luxury....

also most schools i know get 10-15 weeks off in the summer, 2-3 weeks off for Christmas, spring break, fall break, and all the other holidays....

not bad
 

dr. freeze

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and how much Math do i have to update year to year??

how about reading and writing???

Has Shakespeare come out with a new edition for literature?

has US History pre Civil War changed?

how about Spanish, or Latin?

how about 7th grade woodworking??

Physical education???

and in US History, how many times do you even get to the recent history by the end of the year? and how many lessons do you spend on it?

*** If there IS all this "updating" that needs to be going on....who and why are they enforcing this?***
 

just cover

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Freeze- I don't know where you went to school, but I went to a small school with 500 kids total and I never watched a plugged in video. I can say that my wife who is a teacher has never done that. HOW can you being so educated, enlightened, and intelligent say such a stupid comment about the bottom third of teachers are garbage?

And what about the bottom third of doctors? How many quacks are out there? How many unneeded surgeries go on every year? And this is the big one- how many doctors over prescribe just for a kick back from the pharmaceutical companies? Also I don't know many teachers who can push their students back 2 hours so they can go hit 18 holes at the country club. I think half the time you argue a point just to hear yourself sound smart.

Like I said I am biased but some of these comments made about teachers are ridiculous. Teaching is the profession that creates all others- I don't know exactly where I heard that but it is probably the smartest statement I have heard yet.

jc
 

dogface

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One last note form myself on this topic as it is pretty well covered. Some with great points, some not so great, and some just absolutley absurd.

I have been on both sides of this debate:

Before I actually graduated from College the first time, I became an Insurance/Investment Broker. Worked in that industry, and found myself working late into evenings, meeting individuals at their home and convenience to build my book of business. DUring theday I focused on Business to Business sales, running 401k's, group health plans, etc.. Typical work week 60+ hours. (Granted I was getting started but the more you work the more you make..it was all commission!)

Due to personal reasons I left, and became a Retail Store Manage for a Large National Chain, thinking this would be a way to still utilize my extroverted personality, make a nice income and motivate people one of my strengths. Work Week Required 46+ hours a week, but in retail you really never leave! Actual around 60+.

I then left the industry to purchase 3 MBE, now UPS stores. I lasted in that boring industry as an owner of a very dull franchise IMO. WOrk week...well it never ended I hired college kids to run two stores I ran the other and filled postions with Marketing (DECA) students from local high schools. Work week Never Ended, and it was mind numbing.

Decided to try Collegiate Coaching, as a FB coach. I swear 70+ hours during season and when recruiting. Meeting, after meeting, breakdown after breakdown of game films. Work Week as mentioned 70+ during season, narrowed down after but believe the pay is low!

I decided to get another degree while coaching, hence the Education degree. Became a Marketing Teacher / DECA Advisor / Football Coach. 9-10 Weeks of for summer, during that time I put at least 30-40 hours a week in developing plans and curriculum, altering lessons to meet certain requirements, looking for innovative ways to instruct and reach the Multiple Intelligences, as well as the EQ of students. Attending workshops, continuing on in education to increase our pay and keep our license. Work week during school 65+, summer's 35+ hours a week.

Pharma rep for one of the Big 5 companies. Tough day to day interaction with Doc's. Some good, some not so good. Some intelligent, some not. Travel extensively within the state from clinic to clinic. Pay for lunches where some Doc's ego's get in the way and only sneek in to get food, and snek out right away with out a thank you! At least students would snub you or talk smack to you in or face! LOL! Work day consists of being educator, salesmen, Encyclopedia of Info, Coddler of ego's, Expert in field, to Caterer. Avg work week with tons of paperwork. 60+

Now when I say this, I say it with both sides considered and weighed. Teaching by far is the Hardest, Most Demanding, Under Paid, Less and less respected, postion I have ever had...bar none! I find most people, and colleagues have not 1 clue about how education is run, how decisions are made, who makes the decisions, etc.... but are more than willing to talk about ease of job, benefits of summers off, blah, blah, blah and all of that oxymoronic stuff. Point being a majority of those posting in this thread couldn't hack the profession if they wanted to...but a teacher could handle yours!

That's my story and I am sticking to it!!

Some may view this thread as funny, disappointing etc., I love the banter and conversation simply because every post becomes an eye opener for someone. Whether it be knowledge or just amazed at someone's response or ignorance, it just really shows how much this board is a microcosm of the nation!
 

NySportsfan

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A lot of people have made good points, and some stupid ones. I think Dogface is making all teachers out to as important as cops and firemen and that they are the second coming of christ, when in fact, that's just not the case. By the way, Im not a teacher, but have a good friend who just went into the field.
First off, Of course there are some good and some bad/lazy teachers who don't care, flirt with the female students, etc, and of course some exceptional ones, who go over the top to help kids, be influential part of their lives and such. I just have a very very hard time believing some of the crap Dogface is saying. First off, It is NONSENSE how every teacher makes the same. Im not saying in quality of teachers, but Im saying, in how gym teachers make the same as science teachers, as long as have been there the same amount of years, thats absurd, and elementary school teachers making the same as a high school math teacher, when they only essentially babysit.
Secondly, It is ABSURD saying 35+hrs a week in the summer for most teachers, Maybe you are the exception, you love your job and you love the kids, which is great, more power to you. How bout the PE Teachers, gotta work 35 hrs a week in the summer working up kickball lesson plans, and dodgeball lesson plans? I know its tough for high school kids to figure it out, and literally at my school, the fat a$$ gym teacher would sit and flirt with girls, or eat his lunch, while everyone played volleyball, kickball, etc. Of course coaching takes up a lot of time and is underpaid, but they do that mainly to be involved w/sports and the like, and to bring some meaning to their jobs. PE teaching job possibly is the biggest sham in the world, Guy just retired at my old school made 100k his last few yrs doing jack crap, now he'll get a fatt ass pension and sit and drink beers all day and play golf. Yes, there are legit teachers, but gym teachers are a farce, they only have jobs b/c schools need PE to keep kids "well rounded"
Thirdly, Its a good point how teachers cant skip out on their students. But, Many teachers, in like health and the like, show the same videos for 30 yrs in a row! and sit there and play pocket hockey while the classes watch. Dont tell me these guys spend 35+ hrs a week in the summer, how bout 35 seconds not even! The bottom line is, maybe teachers are underpaid, but dont act like all the teachers are gods gift to the world, alot of them legitimately care about the kids, some of them are in it for the joke ride, and summers off. Also, I think teachers as a whole are conservative, mainly because if they were so high and almighty, why not go make more $$$, with some risk involved? Fireman are the heroes in this world NOT teachers, teachers have a tough and often underappreciated jobs, especially now with the standardized testing, but lets not get too nuts here!

Mike
 

Hoops

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worm44 said:
Hey hoops--nice spelling(check your post)-do you need verification? I can supply that--Put your $ where your mouth is...

Worm- Thanks. I can supply documentation that I'm a priest. Doesn't mean I really am. Would you like to put $$ on that?
 

dr. freeze

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fyi most pharm reps don't have any idea what they are talking about (had one the other day that didn't know if their antibiotic covered MRSA or even what MRSA was **a bug that pretty much defines a drug's spectrum**)....and no doctor giving any kind of care wants to sit there and listen to a biased commercial...and it is pointless to argue with a pharm rep, so might as well take the lunch and run to next patient....one is actually doing a patient a disservice by paying attention to these schpeel's because they withhold some information and very few are totally honest, up front, and forthright

my comment about the bottom 3rd of teachers being garbage comes with experience....and the school i went to consistently scored way above national average so i can hardly imagine what the lower tiered schools have in their systems....

doctor's do not get a "kick-back" from pharm companies anymore....those days are over (thankfully i might add) although there are still some garbage ones who overprescribe.....BUT a patient has a choice and does not ahve to go to them and thus does not have to provide business/income to the quack doctor.....

a school board canNOT fire a bad teacher or reward a good one....at least thats my experiences with them -- and if they try to fire one or reward one with a huge raise it causes all kinds of chaos (compare this to the simple decision to switch to a different doctor's service -- and if your HMO doesn't let you do it, thats a whole different debate and maybe you should figure out a different way to pay for your health care)......and thus the point of this whole debate

a good teacher is not easy to be, i will readily admit that....especially these days with the lack of parenting that is going on and loss of the ability to discipline kids...but the root of the problem for teacher's salaries lies in the lack of accountability and a reward system for performance...and that MUST be taken care of before an across the board raise can be considered...

i just don't want to hear about all these "lesson plans changing or updating" or whatever because the information kids learn -- math, science, history, language, literature should be the same that we all learned....with very few exceptions.....the books just do not change that much year to year....or at least they SHOULD not...and if they do change, why is this so?
 
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loungelizard

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kids in the inclusion programs which now I believe most classrooms have, need IEPs (individual education plans) these can't be used year to year, and most must be modified frequently during the school year, I would assume few teachers just blow the dust off the old lesson plan book and use them year to year as things do change, remember the new math while 2+2 still equaled 4, there had to be a new way to teach it. Doctors, Lawyers, Teachers, and many other professions require continuing education who teaches these things? My dad always said he wasn't interested in seeing the 4x4 Diploma on a doctors wall, he wanted to see the doctors grades, how does a doctor get educated? just wondering.

Peace,
LL
 

dogface

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NYSPortsFan-

You don't think teaches are as important as Police or Firemen? That is absolutely stunning IMO. Education is the basis in which you were given the ability to make your post. But I digress, as to the rest of your points. Let me know of the district that had someone making $100000 a year, I may go back into teaching!


Freeze- If I am correct you are still in school...deciding on what you want to be...GP or what have you? Yet you think MOST Reps do not have a clue. I find out in my specific area of coverage I have more knowledge than most of of my physicians. OB/Gyn's are more knowledgeable in my area, FP's and GP's have no clue. I will argue that a good rep does not provide a Biased commercial as you stated, but looks for avenues in which the doctor's may not have looked...or outline specific patient types. Aslo a good rep knows his products better than anyone, and also knows his competitiors products better than his competitors.

Hell, I get called personally from Doc's to answer their questions, as well as from Pharmacists, and get invited to their monthly meetings etc., because of my contributions to their practice. BUt I also know that the Nurse's and NP's no more about their practive than a majority of the Doc's, and are willing to take more time with the patients for their sake. If you believe that the reps are worthless, are you telling me you read every clinical that comes out? How do you stay abreast of the changes in drugs, and their indications? I have quite a few Doc friends and excellent relationships with quite a few in my terrritory. The plain out tell me that they learn an awful lot of information from us aas pharma reps. Especially the one's that support their views with clinicals. Which most of the time they don't want to see anyways for times sakes, and the fact that they know what I say will be supported, or I wouldn't say it? I must admit though you have an interesting observation from your POV. I would like to carry on further conversations to see what you all talk about in the backroom? I may feel sorry for your reps....

Interesting observations, and I tried to be as objective as possible. But until something is personally done or achieved, it is based on an opinion. I like to think my arguments were based on fact.
 

NySportsfan

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Dogface- There are many many schools in the suburbs of Long Island, a lot of upper-middle class areas where teachers and compensated well, not going to name my old town theres no need, but trust me there are many. I know education is the basis, but I personally dont think its all its cracked up to be, formal education. For some things yes, For others no. You might think by seeing me write I'm educated very highly formally, which in fact I'm not, I didn't like the structure of school, and having to "bow down to teachers" and listen to all their stupid rules, and it just wasn't for me, If one was inclined to do so which I was/am, You can teach yourself much much more by living and learning than by being in a boring classroom learning things from 500 b.c.
But that point is a problem with updating the educational system, and that won't happen. Personally, I have taught myself much more by reading, which is the key to everything IMO, and by speaking to intelligent people.
By the way, Firemen save peoples LIVES. Does a gym teacher save anyones life, I guess maybe since they know cpr, if someone falls down jumping rope they can help them, but you get my point in general. I think elementary school teachers are essential, but frankly, once most kids get to high school they tune teachers out, I certainly did, and the teachers at that level stop caring usually also. Hope I clarified my points, JMO of course, we are all allowed to have one, right, wrong or indifferent. good argument though can be argued will the cows come home

Mike
 

NySportsfan

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sorry for a few typos, meant "teachers are compensated well" but like you said, be careful not to measure one's intelligence by posts, because I rush mine because its informal like you said. I was sure some clown would jump on a typo, it's happened before

Mike
 

ferdville

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Please stop with the "dust off the same old lesson plan" crap. Almost every state has or will soon (because of the federal No Child Left Behind program) have to correlate their lesson plans with state standards. The state standards are being changed every year and they did not exist 5 years ago. Old lesson plans would not be aligned with the state standards and they could not be used. Also, using the same lesson plans assumes that you are using the same text book year after year after year. With every new textbook, new plans are necessary. Not only are lesson plans to be aligned with state standards, most districts and states provide calendarized standards. That means by the end of September, for example, my classes should have mastered the calendarized standards for September. In my opinion this is achieving the exact opposite of what is intended. Rather than teaching students to think on their own, we must teach the standards so they can pass the state tests.
 

dr. freeze

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actually i have a pretty solid research background....was on track for MDPhD but dropped the PhD because of the time commitment....have done 2 years in labs in my short time spending time in every facet of research

and most of the drug reps -- although they know their literature, charts, etc. etc.....do not know science...and actually probably 1/3 -- most likely that is an underestimate --of the doctors do not know science...so these charts, graphs, pharm. literature seems very appealing and they can be easily swayed by a quick schpeel....

but the literature supplied by drug reps is very biased...."studies" are presented with all kinds of charts saying nothing on how the study was conducted (a blind vs. double blind clinical trial), what variables could have been confounding, who did the study, who paid for the study, etc. etc.....this is very important information in determining efficacy, side effect profile, indications and the like. Without it, one can manipulate a study to say anything. And get paid well to do so.

As for myself, I will read review articles in reputable journals. Reviews or meta-analysis articles consume very little time actually. Most doctors are too lazy to do this thouhg. Hence the success of the drug rep.
 

dr. freeze

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ferdville said:
Please stop with the "dust off the same old lesson plan" crap. Almost every state has or will soon (because of the federal No Child Left Behind program) have to correlate their lesson plans with state standards. The state standards are being changed every year and they did not exist 5 years ago. Old lesson plans would not be aligned with the state standards and they could not be used. Also, using the same lesson plans assumes that you are using the same text book year after year after year. With every new textbook, new plans are necessary. Not only are lesson plans to be aligned with state standards, most districts and states provide calendarized standards. That means by the end of September, for example, my classes should have mastered the calendarized standards for September. In my opinion this is achieving the exact opposite of what is intended. Rather than teaching students to think on their own, we must teach the standards so they can pass the state tests.

I agree...but I think what has happened is the textbooks themselves, and school districts themselves have been putting out illiterate people unable to think for themselves or do simple mathematics and do not understand science. RIght now, I see no other solution that imposing some kind of standards. Well, we COULD reward good teachers and hold bad ones accountable....but that would be a travesty.

And these new textbooks with completely different lesson plans or whatever is very unneccessary. No need to change Algebra I's textbook every year. X^4=16 still means X=2. And Shakespeare hasn't written any new books and Christopher Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492. The atom still is made of protons, electrons, and neutrons and the cell still has a nucleus. What has happened, is school districts are getting bilked by publishers who are in bed with the NEA and authors of all these textbooks are the same people making recommendations on how to teach and what to teach and what book to buy. Its a racket....but actually addressing this problem would be a travesty.
 

dogface

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Very interesting on the clinical journals analysis. We were instructed to lead with that information such as type of study, controls, who did the study, etc....Typically then all of the information you are looking for is within the 1st paragraph which provides that specific info.

Typically I lead with proof sources "We call them that" as my visuals if you will....but most will say you don't need to show me that. (Time issue, trust factor I imagine)

Secondly, how do those reps discusss things without out a thorough clinical walkthrough...the rest then is funny science...similiar to a restrospective study! LOL! Where patietents couodn't remember what they were on, they identified the drug by wha tthey thought the color was, couldn't remember what they weighed so they couldn't ascertain if their was weight gain or loss...etc...


Alos, most studies coming our of Europe are terribly designed, and usually all open labeled, etc., etc., but apparently that is their science. I profess to not have a strong liking for science, and I am definitely not a scientist, but I do have the mindset to research, and read which I am sure helps. Not too mention, I never waste a Doc's time...one of the IMO largest and easiest errors most make....but never correct.
 

ferdville

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Freeze - totally agree with you. Public school systems are political animals and as such, they just won't work. The idea of standards seems like a good one, but in reality, districts force the teachers to teach the standards which is teaching to the test. The tests are based on the standards. This leads to emphasis on regurgitation of useless facts. It also does NOT require students to understand the overall picture. It also does not require a competent teacher because other than your teaching delivery, everyone within a district is covering the same material at the same pace. As anyone with half a brain can see, this is an assinine system. However, the testing frenzy will be with us for a good decade (in my opinion) as it just serves as an easier way for people to cover their ass. We will produce a generation of students that can only recite minutia and important facts, yet will not understand the whole picture. They will be able to tell you that the Civil War lasted from 1861 to 1865. But they won't be able to tell you much about the causes of the Civil War other than the vague concept of slavery which was but one of several reasons. This disturbs most of the teachers I know. I would like my students to be able to think for themselves - to be able to form an opinion based on fact and not opinion - things of this nature. But this kind of thinking is going byu the wayside in district's that emphasize an exit exam, etc. I predict that in the future students will all receive their instruction on line via computer. One qualified teacher will be responsible for dealing with 50 or so students. Districts will love it because the software is already there and they can eliminate most, if not all of the teachers and replace them with aides. Trust me - this will happen in the next 25-50 years.
 
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