End of the debate - Best Program

[Bob Stoops]

When you talk about the best programs, you have to look at more than last year and what you think might happen next year. When you look at the history of college football, Oklahoma's Seven national Championships rank third best all time. Considering where Notre Dame and Alabam have been the last ten years there is clearly an argument to be made about the best program of all time.

But if you look at who the best program is today, it is no contest. I realize that I am biased, but please look at the stats for Oklahoma.

LAST FOUR YEARS - UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA

Record: 48-6 (89%)

Two-Time Big 12 Champions
Three times Big 12 Title Games
2000 National Champions

2000 Orange Bowl Champions Final Season Rank #1
2001 Cotton Bowl Champions Final Season Rank #6
2002 Rose Bowl Champions Final Season Rank #5
2003 Played in BCS Title Game Final Season Rank #3

13 All-Americans

Individual Awards: 2003 Heisman
2003 Butkus
2003 Lombardi
2003 Thorpe
2003 Nagurski
2003 O'Brien
2003 Bednarik
2001 Butkus
2001 Thorpe
2001 Nagurski
2001 Walter Camp

I welcome anyones comments or disareements to this list. I think all will agree that it is very impressive. If you look at the upcoming season, I see no reason to believe that Oklahoma won't be right in the thick of it again.

All stats from www.soonersports.com

 

[bbk]

I would guess Scott is going to say USC and because OU did not win their last 2 games that OU is the 5th best team over the last 4 years. I would agree with you Stoops. Would put OU 1st with Miami a very close 2nd.

 

[Master Capper]

I would say in the past three years both Ohio State and Miami of Florida deserve the top program billing.

 

[Kdogg21]

i would have to agree with OU being tops, right behind would be Ohio St, Miami, LSU and USC...

 

[Stuman]

Can't argue with those stats, although I'm sure Scott is working vigorously behind the scenes as I type this to make us believe otherwise...

Its only a matter of time now...

 

[Kdogg21]

....:lol2 :lol: ....sad but true...

 

[Bob Stoops]

I have to agree that it would be difficult to argue with a Miami Fan in this regard. They are almost equal to Oklahoma in every area.

 

[Scott4USC]

Bob Stoops

Very good post. I agree OU was the best program the last 4 years.

I think Miami. was the best program the last 3 years.

USC the best program the last 2 years. (OSU comes a very close 2nd)

What did I factor:

wins/losses
National Championships
Recruiting
Media Spotlight
SOS (OOC Schedule, home/away victories)
Domination of opponents/field of play
Heisman Trophy
Media perception
Coaching

 

[Bob Stoops]

Just for arguments sake you say you use media spotlight, but OU led the BCS all season last year and most of 2002 which means they were the main team talked about when the rankings came out each week.

In addition, I think College Gameday TV has been to an OU game 4 or 5 times in the last two years and the Radio Gameday (Mel Kiper) about the same number of times and the spotlight does not get any bigger than that in College Football.

 

[Scott4USC]

Bob Stoops

Of course OU has had a lot of media pub. I 100% agree on that. For all the positive media pub OU recieved, they also got their share of negative pub for getting "blown" out by KSU and not winning their conference. Despite not winning their conference, OU still played in the BCS title and lost. Negative pub. In addition, OU recieves good pub for recruiting, but failed to get the #1 class 2 years in a row.

I am not sure if you think OU had the best program the last 2 years vs USC or not. Or if your merely pointing out OU does recieve a lot of pub. USC I think has recieved the most pub of all college teams this last year. You agree? It seems like USC is the media darling.

Just as I write this, I found out Brian Kenny just called USC a DYNASTY on ESPNews. I personally think USC is "building" a dynasty but USC is not a dynasty yet. Need a few more 10 win seasons, 1-2 more NC's in the next 4-5years, and few more ROSE BOWL victories over the "mighty" Big 10.

 

[Bob Stoops]

It is hard to imagine that USC got more pub than OU when we led the BCS for the entire year, were ranked number one for the entire year and had the Heisman Trophy winner. I don't think it is possible to get anymore publicity than that. Matbe out in LA, but not nationwide.

 

[Blackman]

Coming from an East Coast perspective: -Oklahoma dominated news for most of the year, and since NJ does not have a big time football team to take up news coverage, we get mostly whoever is the hottest story nationwide. USC and LSU did not really come onto the scene until late - Mid November or so. Of course they got coverage, but Oklahoma was dominating the headlines as they were storming through the Big 12 regular season. Even read a few columms talking about the 2003 Oklahoma teams' place amongst the all time great college squads, which made me laugh then and really makes me laugh now.

USC got some publicity sure, but wasn't the dominant story around here for the majority of the year, and probably never was the top story this season on the East Coast. Even after the Rose Bowl and Sugar Bowls, LSU got as much coverage as the Trojans in my neck of the woods.

 

[Scott4USC]

You both are right. I made a mistake and was not looking at the big picture. OU did prob. have more pub throughout the "whole" year. I was sort of basing my statement on the last half of the year until now (including recruiting) and factoring negative publicity towards OU.

 

[Bob Stoops]

So basically what you are saying is USC is the best program in the last two months?

I don't know, LSU has a pretty strong argument.

I thought I would look at a couple of your other points.

Strength of Schedule:
In 2002 USC was #1 and OU #14
In 2003 OU was #11 and USC was #37

Won/Losses USC has 3, OU has 4

Recruiting does not count due to the fact we won't know who won for 3 or 4 years. I will say OU got the consensus #1 player in the country. (Adrian Peterson)

Domination of Opponents:

OU 59 UCLA 24
OU 65 Texas 13
OU 52 OSU 9

USC has some nice wins by 20-30 points, but nothing like this against two teams in the final Top 25.

Heisman Trophy is obviously a wash, but based on some of your previous theories, I will take the nod due to recent history.

Media perception - This is also not a real stat. If it were, the liberals would be running the country.

Coaching - I am sure neither of us would trade.

All things considered, I would say they are pretty equal over the last two years. If you are looking for a tiebreaker, the Big 12 is a better conference than the Pac-10.

 

[Scott4USC]

In the last 2 years....

USC 23-3 88% winning % :thumb:
OU 24-28 85% winning %

In the last 2 years....

USC won 2 Conference Championships :thumb:
OU won 1 Conference Championship

In the last 2 years....

USC won 1 National Championship :thumb:
OU has won 0 National Championships

Recruiting Rankings (yes we can judge that now)..........

In 02/03 USC recruited #1 classes both years. :thumb:
In 02/03 OU recruited #4 and #7 classes.
***Remember, Carroll set a recruiting record with 8 5-star players in one recruiting class. In addition, USC DL coach Orgeron was named national recruiter of the year. ***In 2002 USC got the #1 class after QB BOOTY signed with USC after LOI day.

Strength of Schedule the last 2 years.....

In 02/03 USC was #1 and #37
In 02/03 OU was #14 and #11 :thumb:
***Big 12 was over-rated last year and no way would i have rated OU #11 SOS. But those are the #'s. Can't really argue it. Advantage OU except USC #1 SOS in 2002 was one of the all time toughest schedules and USC went 11-2 and their 2 losses were away and by 3pts OT and 7pts. Virtually a wash, but I give the nod to OU.

Domination of Opponents in the last 2 years....

I say this is a wash. Both dominated their opponents, except maybe slight edge to USC. USC has humiliated both BCS opponents in both bowl games. In addition, USC dominated their last 9 opponents in 2002 with the #1 SOS.

Heisman Trophy in the last 2 years....

I agree, this is a wash except Palmer stepped up in big national games and White laid huge egg.

Coaching in the last 2 years.....

USC def. gets the edge over OU. The reason I give USC the edge in coaching is: USC did win a NC, dominated both opponents in BCS bowl games (offensively and defensively). USC in the last 2 years has never lost in the months of OCT., NOV, December and January. NO PROGRAM CAN MAKE THAT CLAIM. USC coaching staff has their team playing there best football at the end of the year (like your suppose too). In addition, this was Leinarts first year playing QB at USC with zero prior experience, and completely new backfield. Simply amazing coaching job at USC. Leinart was a legitimate Heisman contender. In the last 2 years USC has never lost by double digits and "only" lost by an average of 4pts!!! 2 of the 3 USC losses were in OT!!!!! Stoops and staff are excellent but in the last 2 years USC coaching has been 2nd to none.

Media perception of both schools

At the end of the 2002 season, a lot of the media felt USC was playing the best football at the end of the year. At the end of the 2003 season, most of the media felt USC was playing the best football at the end of the year. That is what I meant from media perception. BTW, I agree Liberals run the media.

OOC opponents by both schools....

USC wins hands down, especially since USC played in some VERY hostile environments.

These are all of the following reasons why I have USC the #1 program in the last 2 years. Some of these statements are not debatable, and some of these statements are subjective. I think on the ones that are subjective I was more than fair. After adding up all that criteria and putting more weights on some than others, that is why I have USC edging out OU for the best program in the last 2 years. Along with OU, Ohio St. has a very good argument in being the #1 program the last 2 years. I think I would put Ohio St. #2 program the last 2 years.

the Big 12 is a better conference than the Pac-10.

No I am sorry, the Big 12 is not better than the Pac 10. I will be putting up numbers very soon on a new thread comparing all the conferences to prove this last statement of mine. Please lets not debate this until my new thread appears and you will see.

I will say OU got the consensus #1 player in the country. (Adrian Peterson)

No, I am sorry Peterson was not exactly the consensus #1 player in the country. He was the consensus #1 RB in the country. USC OL recruit BYERS was named player of the year by few recruiting services along with Peterson in other services.

Bob Stoops
I enjoy exchanging posts with you. You bring up very good points and you are very respectful. I also want you to know in no way am I minimizing the succuss of the OU program. Like I said, I think hands down OU is the #1 program the last 4 years. But when you look at just the last 2 years I "think" USC hands down is the #1 program. I cannot wait for an OU vs USC matchup and I feel the day is coming!

 

[mansa_musa]

Mr Stoops

I have no stake in the whole best program debate, but,

the Big 12 is a better conference than the Pac-10.

The three best Big 12 teams (OU, K State & Texas) all lost their bowl games! Half the conf gave up over 30 ppg to BCS teams (3 teams allowed over 40 ppg!) and Texas gave up 28+ ppg. The Big 12 was probably the weakest of the BCS confs defensively last yr. Of the 76 wins recorded by the Big 12 bowl teams, 24 came against non BCS schools & another 19 wins came against Baylor, ISU or Tx A&M. That's over 56% (5+ wins per team) of their wins against weak comp. No wonder the Big 12 went 2-6 in the bowls (W's over Navy & Mich St:shrug: ), when they had to step up to play the big boys.

The rapid decline of Colorado & TX A&M have severely weakened that conf. I dont really believe you thought that comment through before you made it. You probably hoped it would be defended by other biased Big 12 fans, who also havent done their homework. You may want to stick to defended the merits of OU. But, then again, the Sooners run up their impressive stats vs the soft underbelly that is the Big 12.

On the other hand, the three best Pac 10 teams (SC, Cal & WSU) all won their bowl games. Havent worked the #'s as far as the amt of Pac 10 wins v non BCS & AZ (the only Pac 10 program comparable to the Big 12 bottom feeders--but that should change w your brother coaching there now!). But I bet it wont be 50+%, cause the Pac 10 teams usually schedule tougher OOC opponents than most other confs.

So the next time you feel like making that kind of comment, please expect to be challenged by someone willing to count it out for you. It is not a true statement & I hope you dont use that opinion when you cap your conf's games.

 

[DR STRANGELOVE]

is it me or is scott starting to lean to the middle a bit?
great info as always scott

 

[Mr Hockey]

Mr Stoops

I have no stake in the whole best program debate, but,


The three best Big 12 teams (OU, K State & Texas) all lost their bowl games! Half the conf gave up over 30 ppg to BCS teams (3 teams allowed over 40 ppg!) and Texas gave up 28+ ppg. The Big 12 was probably the weakest of the BCS confs defensively last yr. Of the 76 wins recorded by the Big 12 bowl teams, 24 came against non BCS schools & another 19 wins came against Baylor, ISU or Tx A&M. That's over 56% (5+ wins per team) of their wins against weak comp. No wonder the Big 12 went 2-6 in the bowls (W's over Navy & Mich St:shrug: ), when they had to step up to play the big boys.

The rapid decline of Colorado & TX A&M have severely weakened that conf. I dont really believe you thought that comment through before you made it. You probably hoped it would be defended by other biased Big 12 fans, who also havent done their homework. You may want to stick to defended the merits of OU. But, then again, the Sooners run up their impressive stats vs the soft underbelly that is the Big 12.

On the other hand, the three best Pac 10 teams (SC, Cal & WSU) all won their bowl games. Havent worked the #'s as far as the amt of Pac 10 wins v non BCS & AZ (the only Pac 10 program comparable to the Big 12 bottom feeders--but that should change w your brother coaching there now!). But I bet it wont be 50+%, cause the Pac 10 teams usually schedule tougher OOC opponents than most other confs.

So the next time you feel like making that kind of comment, please expect to be challenged by someone willing to count it out for you. It is not a true statement & I hope you dont use that opinion when you cap your conf's games.

I am one who thinks the Big 12 is not as strong as many want to believe from top to bottom since they do have some pretty weak teams but over the last 10 years in your opinion, do you honestly feel the Pac 10 has achieved greater success as a whole? I'm just asking for an opinion. I'm curious to here your answer. I know you can have an open mind which is why I asked you.

I do agree that the rapid decline of Colorado & Texas A&M has been very bad for the Big 12. The Big 12 used to be able to claim tough teams as being Colorado, OU, Neb, Tex, TA&M, etc but lately it is pretty much all Oklahoma with everyone else atleast 2 notches below. OU has probably done the best over the last 4-5 years of any other team but look at what that has done to the conference. It isn't so good in my opinion to have that one standout team & everyone else be 2+ notches below as that really hurts the overall conference product.


Looking at the Pac 10 objectively, USC has the potential to be another Oklahoma of the past 4-5 years & while it would make them look damn good, will the conference suffer more since most teams would probably be atleast 2 notches below them?

 

[Scott4USC]

Mr Hockey

I am one who thinks the Big 12 is not as strong as many want to believe from top to bottom since they do have some pretty weak teams but over the last 10 years in your opinion, do you honestly feel the Pac 10 has achieved greater success as a whole? I'm just asking for an opinion.

I know you did not specifically ask for my opinion but I think this will help you out.

1993-2003 Conference Champions

Pac 10 Conference Champions in the Last 11 Years

9 out of the 10 teams in the Pac 10 won their conference. 90% of the teams in the Pac 10 have won a conference championship. In the last 11 years, 17 teams have claimed the title or shared the title. That is a lot and shows how competitive the conference is.

Big 12 Conference Champions in the Last 11 Years

Only 5 of the 12 teams in the Big 12 won their conference. 41% of the teams in the Big 12 have won a conference championship. Now you "might" be saying, well there is a championship game in the BIG 12, so you cannot compare it to the pac 10 having 90% of their teams winning their conference and 17 teams claiming or sharing the pac 10 title. Well if you look at all the teams that reached the Big 12 conference title game, there has only been 6 different teams. 50% of the conference never reaches the conferene title game.

Another thing to remember, the best teams in the Big 12 often do not play each other in conference play and meet up in the conference title game. So please do not say the Big 12 is tougher because they play a conference title game. Just take last year for example OU not playing KSU until the conference championship. If OU played KSU earlier in the season or during the season at all, OU would not have looked so tough. OU also did not have to play Nebraska who finished 2nd in the Big 12 North. So the Conference Championship game actually evens the playing field. Otherwise OU would not have played the top 2 teams in the Big 12 North. So I def. am in favor of the Conference Championship game.

Hopefully you and others realize that the Pac 10 is extremely competitive from top to bottom year in and year out. In the last 11 years, only 2 teams have gone 8-0 in conference play. That is it. Can any major conference in the country claim these same stats as the Pac 10? NO. This should help explain why not many Pac 10 teams have won the National Championship in the last 11 years. Only 2 teams have gone 8-0 in conference play. Also factor in the Pac 10 always playing TOUGH OOC competition. UCLA went 8-0 in conference play but went undefeated in the regular season but they had one more game left against Miami @Miami at the very end of the year. They ended up losing it in a shootout. If UCLA played div. 2 schools for OOC schedule like the SEC and other conferences, then UCLA would a have won a NC. But that is not the Pac 10 philosophy and maybe that is why the Pac 10 is so tough from top to bottom. NO EASY WAY OUT! DO NOT LOOK FOR THE EASY ROUTE TO A NATIONAL TITLE LIKE OTHER TEAMS DO! NOTHING TO BRAG ABOUT BY BEATING DIV. 2 SCHOOLS! LSU THIS YEAR CAN BRAG ABOUT WINNING A SPLIT NC BUT THEY ALSO BEAT DIV. 2 SCHOOLS IN THE PROCESS! I WOULD NOT BE PROUD OF THAT!

I am not saying the Pac 10 in the last 11 years was the most dominant conference. I am saying there is no conference more competitive than the Pac 10.

 

[txhorns]

Scott4USC
Your so full of shit I can smell u down here.