recruiting : of the top flight schools, which coaches have the easiest......

[gman2]

"sells" and which coaches really have to work hard to sell their school.

why do i pose this question?

mainly because its been on my mind since the end of the college football season and the advent of signing day and all that comes with it.

right now (in 2004 - and im simply generalizing) i would assume we can agree the major "players" in college football recruiting are

oklahoma
texas
ohio state
michigan
louisiana state
southern cal

(fsu, miami, florida, notre dame could be included as well)

ill offer this caveat before i begin:
i think pete carroll is an excellent coach. i think usc is going to remain a major player in college football for the foreseeable future.

BUT

is it really surprising that usc is able to assemble this kind of blue-chip talent? i mean, when you think about it -- isnt this what they SHOULD BE DOING?

honestly, how hard is it to sell tradition, california, a warm climate, organized debauchery with high class broads, and a pass-happy offense to an 18-year old kid?

shouldnt usc be getting top recruiting classes EVERY YEAR?

see where im going with this?

the florida schools have the same advantage.

to me, its more impressive when oklahoma puts together a blue-chip recruiting class, or a texas or an lsu. because i think you have to be more of a salesman (at okie compared to usc) to persuade a kid who is on the fence to come to your school instead of the other one he is leaning to.

in terms of ohio state, i think tressel has a lot of things working for him:

1) largest university in the country
2) very urban area (although not the cleanest )
3) chance to compete for national title each yr (since his arrival)

but i dont think its a coincidence that one ohio product went west (davis to usc) and one ohio product stayed home (ginn). i think its easy as hell to convince top-flight defensive players to come to ohio state. ginn would be stupid to go anywhere else. but davis leaving for usc wasnt a huge surprise. hard to sell a WR on the osu offense if his other option is southern cal

as you can see, im coming from all different angles on this

but i just think coaches in the midwest and big 12 area have to be much better recruiters than those on the coasts, for obvious reasons.

thats kinda why i just feel like usc is doing what they SHOULD BE DOING EVERY YEAR.

what are the pros and cons to lsu (i really dont know)
what are the pros and cons to texas (i really dont know)
etc. etc. etc.

any responses welcome

 

[scott]

pro's for texas would be that they have better facilities than most pro teams, and Austin is an amazing town. Plus, there is a huge talent pool to choose from. It is also not a coincidence that texas, ohio, michigan, california, and florida are some of the biggest states in the united states. They also all have great football traditions.

 

[Blackman]

A school that amazes me every year with their recruiting classes is Penn St. Campus in the middle of nowhere, rumors that every year will be Joe Pa's last, and a slumping team over the past two years.

As I said in another thread I went to Bucknell, which is about 45 minutes east of State College. It is the middle of nowhere. I am not exaggerating one bit when I say that the biggest attraction in the area is Walmart - and the same idea applies to PSU. Unless the recruit really likes walking to class in a foot of snow, I think that they really have to sell the tradition and the facilities. Probably play up the small town close knit atmosphere too.

 

[gman2]

blackman:

good point. if im not mistaken, penn state had a top 7 or 8 recruiting class this year. that speaks volumes. they must be doin something right in pennsylvania. like you said, they gotta be selling tradition. i dont know if the guys in this years penn state recruiting coup are in-staters or out-of-staters. im sure pennsylvania kids still grow up hopin to go to psu though. but maybe thats changing

 

[Scott4USC]

gman2
Great post and I agree with you. USC always should be a top 10 recruiting class, as well as FSU, Miami, FL, Texas, etc....

However, I do disagree with you thinking that USC "should" be #1 recruiting class or any other university you mentioned. It takes extrememly hard work to be a top 5 recruiting class. I agree USC has a lot more to sell than maybe 90% of the Universities. Take this into perspective.

The morning after USC beat Michigan and won the AP NC, Pete Carroll was on a plane to go out and recruit. I would love to know how many coaches did that right after their bowl game victory (not to mention USC bowl victory meant AP NC). No celebration from Carroll because he is not done building USC. He is not satisfied. He said he has not accomplished what he wanted at USC yet and that he is not leaving anytime soon.

Another example, the next morning after LOI (letter of intent day) Pete Carroll visited 6 high schools to recruit. Why? After the day after national letter of intent there is a 5month dead period where coaches cannot recruit. I have been told that on that day Carroll already got 2 silent verbals from 2 5-star players for next recruiting class. I wonder how many college coaches recruited the day after they just finished their recruiting class? Much less visiting 6 high schools. The guy is relentless.

My last example is this. USC did not really recruit nationally before Carroll. When Carroll came, he wanted the best recruits out there so he went national as well as CA. He said he had to sell kids on USC and tell them about USC. 2years later national recruits not only know about USC, but have USC in their top 3.

Carroll said he loves recruiting because he can get the best recruits and as many as he wants. In NFL he only can get 1 each round.

Lastly, what Pete Carroll did this year in recruiting was outstanding. He recruited 8 5-star athletes. These players are the elite players in the country. I think there are only 32 5-star athletes and Carroll got 8 of them compared to LSU who got 3 5-star athletes. (remember, getting 3 5-star atheletes is a hell of a job). Never has a school recruited 8 5-star athletes and the previous record was 6 5-star athletes but that was when there were 60 5-star athletes compared to only 32 now. It is just plain sick the way Carroll recruits AND recognizes/develops talent.

All in all, I think you are taking away the hard work, Carroll, Saban, Mack Brown, Bowden, etc. do to recruit top classes. They all are basically guaranteed top 20 class, but anything higher will take hard work. In addition, you must recognize the talent (not just recruit out of recruiting rankings). I do know those schools have easier sell then say a team in midwest. You talked about USC so I gave example why USC has recruited the #1 recruiting class 2 years in a row. HARD WORK. I think Carroll, Saban, and Stoops are the 3 best recruiters in the country and maybe USC has the most to sell but LSU does as well (especially now). But guess what, all 3 coaches work harder than the other coaches who do not have as much to sell. Isn't that interesting.

Another note, ND has just as much (maybe more) to sell than USC. Why can't TY recruit at ND? You said these teams should be expected to have #1 recruiting class yet ND recruited ZERO 5-star players and only 2 4-star players in this last recruiting class. LSU I think had 10 times as many 4-star recruits as ND!!!! LSU has no tradition compared to ND. Explain that and please do not use academics. USC academics is just "slightly" lower than ND. "Maybe" only 1-2 recruits each year of USC's class could not get into ND.

Blackman
YES your 100% right. What Paterno has done for Penn St. is amazing. I have so much respect for Paterno and Penn St. they are one of my favorite teams. Plus Penn St. is a very good academic school despite being a state school. (expensive too I think)

 

[Blackman]

Penn St does get helped by the fact that their is no football powerhouse in the Northeast, especially the Tri-State area. I don't think they have a ton of trouble wrestling away talent from Rutgers and UConn when it comes down to it.

Also helps a lot that Penn St is so big statewide, and Paterno is such a legend in PA (much like Tom Osborne was in Nebraska). Kids grow up watching this team and this coach, so it is not hard to get the top notch talent to stay home. Guess that is their edge.

 

[gman2]

scott:

im going to defer to your usc knowledge and proximity to the program.

what kinds of recruiting classes did hackett annually put together?

i dont think talent has EVER been an issue at usc. thats my opinion, but i think its fairly fact-based as well.

im not taking ANYTHING away from carroll as a recruiter. but hasnt usc always had top-level talent, even throughout the mid- to late-90s?

wasnt carson palmer a blue chip recruit that never lived up to his hype for 3 years and then had a great senior season?

wasnt keary colbert part of the hackett classes?

point being that even though usc was mediocre, didnt they continue to pull in top level talent even when hackett was there?

will defer to your knowledge on this one.

 

[Scott4USC]

gman2

Your right again. USC always has had talent. Under Hacket, USC had maybe the #10 recruiting class but generally top 15. But who cares abour recruiting rankings because Hacket was not great at recognizing talent and developing it. He recruited by #'s instead of own evaluations.

I will tell you why some programs succeed and other don't.

#1) RECRUITING RANKINGS MEAN JACK CRAP if you cannot develop these talented players and get the most out of them.

#2) RECOGNIZING TALENT and RECOGNIZING your team needs. John Robinson at USC is classic example of this. He was an awesome recruiter but stupid. He first of all was lazy he started recruiting out of recruiting rankings and not doing his own evaluations (like Carroll).

He did not recruit to teams needs. Went after the flashy WR instead of a big OL. Say USC had 3 starting junior OL he would not recruit for the future and get younger OL (remember OL takes long time for kids to adjust). Every program needs plenty of OL and DL in the program. Some coaches do not get this. Need to create DEPTH and understand when to load up and not load up on certain postitions. USC lost 3 senior OL and Carroll already has young guys to replace them. He was not satisfied with that and recruited the #1 JC OL in the nation, #1 high school OL and player of the year, another JC OL, and 2 other 4-star OL. DL and OL are most important positions on the field. Some coaches do not realize that.

Another thing a coach needs to evaluate is if a SUPER TALENTED HIGH SCHOOL KID maxed out in high school and if another talented high school kid can get even better in college. Many athletes max out in high school yet dominate high school football. Tough to recruit and recognize this.

This is why recruiting means jack crap if you do not recognize/develop talent and do not recruit to your teams needs. Now you prob. saying what the hell does Scott know and a D1 coach not know this? Come on, Scott is a goof ball. Just look around college football and see how teams recruit and develop their talent. Inuries will not affect USC next year because USC has 5-star recruits as backups and Carroll made sure of it. He recruits based on teams needs and own evaluations. How you think USC got Mike Williams out of FL? Carroll said Mike would be awesome WR and Zook said Mike would be awesome TE. Carroll made Mike Williams a future millionaire and #1 draft pick. Williams was only a 3-star recruit which tells you WHO CARES ABOUT RECRUITING RANKINGS unless you have faith in your coach.

 

[Stuman]

"A coach that has to work harder to sell their program"

-Any coach at a non-BCS school. Enough said. No one has more work, no one.

 

[Blackman]

"A coach that has to work harder to sell their program"

-Any coach at a non-BCS school. Enough said. No one has more work, no one.

Agree - and their battle is twofold. Not only is it a major sell to get a 5-star recruit to come to their school, they also HAVE to find those 2 or 3 star recruits that are really golden nuggets hidden in the masses. Since it is near impossible for a Miami-Oh to bring in a top tier player, they have to find kids who will turn into the Ben Rothlesberger's of the world, or the team is destined to be mediocre. Got to give the coaches of the Miami Oh's and Boise States a ton of credit - because they have to evaluate and take a lot of chances on guys that are not highly touted but have untouched potential - and then unlock that potential. Great point Stuman.