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Tenzing

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sigh, 'ere we go again

sigh, 'ere we go again

Obviously, anyone may freely post on here. But it is not getting us anywhere to use ad hominem (look it up) attacks to "rebut" (man, I laugh so hard at some of these posts) ideas and theories you can't fathom. Like I said, it's your right to do so, but seriously, calling people this that or the other thing only lends credance to the arguments I make, and detracts from any negative aspect you can contrive to impune me or my ides. In other words if you can't speak to my facts with your own, all you wind up accomplishing is the same thing you've been stuck doing for a while now, i.e., looking foolish and preposterous.
Oh, and btw, I can't read, so there's no way for me to quote books or stuff.
Lol, and another thing, try using your own ideas instead of the 3rd (that is, instead of the 2nd) grade version of "I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I?
The above exortation therefore provides that I'm older than you, both mentally and chronologically.
Since you can't use anything but personal attacks, just give up the ghost, my boy. Find some reasons to think like you do, or discard them and grow up.
Either way, I'm done with you.
 

yyz

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People hate America because we stick our nose in their business. No matter how "disadvantaged" you think some poor slob may be, it doesn't mean he feels that way.


As for the humuliation of the Iraqi prisoners, it just looks bad. How can you, on one hand, go to "liberate" a country's people from a torturous tyranical way of life, and then act the same way? I'm sorry, but that makes little sense.
 

djv

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Tenzing You mention folks here dont speak to the facts. What facts were you thinking off?
You talk about personal attacks here. You have to get used to that. I get it all the time. Just becasue I wont bend down and kiss the ground Bush walks on im dam near Un-American.
We Americans do hold our self to a higher standard. Why? It's starts way back in grade school. And ofcourse the way we are brought up at home has agreat deal to do with it.
As for why were hated so many places. I always say why are we loved so many places. And yes we give to much away for nothing in return. Then other times we give nothing with out getting our return first. It's a old story is the cup half full, or half emty.
 

Tenzing

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Since I'm an adult, I don't think I'll take vitriole-filled advice from people who waste their time and by extention, the time of the people who read this thread.
It is certainly possible to live in whichever state you currently reside and be un-American. So many people think a crass remark (or more often than not, a series of them) and hate-filled speech, as long as it directed towards a public officail, is great, wonderful, superb, in fact required and wholy patriotic. Well, listen up, you losers, it isn't. Blabbering off about how (insert polticos' name here) is doing this that or the other thing, even tho, you have no idea behind the reasoning or the impact means you are just a dastardly old curmudgeon who hates free-loving peoples and our way of life. Yes, I'm aware that the left has made it de rigeur to be as vocal and vociferous as possible when denegrating anything that doesn't suit their brand of democracy, that is to say the "fact" that these Hollywood-types should always have thier way and never have to answer to you schmucks, for that is what you are to these bozos, schmucks, and that there will always be a core group of unintelligent individuals who have to scrabble to a TV set or buy a book to discover what the aforementioned American-hating liberals say, so they can then ascetain how they should feel about a particular set of circumstances. Should you choose to allow others to think for you, that's your business- but hardy-har rejoinders and trite phraseology won't get you anywhere.
To speak to the issue, there is no way that the rest of the world can criticize us for anything we do, we provide or have in the last 65 years, provided, everything they have.
Saddam killed 400,000 to 1,000,000 kurds with gas. Illeagl under any rules of warfare. Plus most of the murdered were non-combattants. Where is the Iraqi-wide condemantion of the Ba'ath party, and its' officials who still roam the countryside? These barbarians who have no idea how to bathe or read or write Arabic, are gonan tell my country how to do things? Hardly. We kicked their ass in on-on-one combat, now they gotta live with that fact. If you, as an American, don't like it, tough noogies. We aren't going anywhere and your whiny admonitions to the contrary are notwithstanding.
Now under no circumstance am I concerned about what the clowns in Iran or Senegal or Honduars or Kazakhstan etc think about our policies. They don't pay my bills and sure as hell won't help to defend my country from insugents who originate in their country. If america is such a disgusting country why don't you pack up and move on down the road to Bimini or the Bahams or the Leeward Island; I'm progressive thinkers like you guys are in sort supply there. Come to think of it, they still will be.
The people around the world hate us cause we got hegemony and they don't, which is understandable, our nuclear-powered ocean going hundred-thousand tonne ships show up on thier shores and they know the US means business, we don't **** around, that's some scary shit, and since they can't protest their own gov't (except in France where shutting down the capitol city every week-end, oops, I meant um, well let's see is there another word, nope it's definately week-end, over the price of strawberries of some hyper-cultured yogurt that in few years may or may not turn into cheese.)
Why don't those of you with such keen minds go help out and work towards making this the socialist Utopia you dream about.
 

ctownguy

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Tenzing :iagree: :iagree: :142hail: :142hail:

Nice posts on this subject, finally some clear and common sense thinking about all of this.

Great job:thumb:
 

kosar

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Tenzing said:
Saddam killed 400,000 to 1,000,000 kurds with gas. .

I can't even fathom the rest of your manifesto, and certainly don't have the time to respond to all the nonsense, but the Kurds killed by gas were 3-5 thousand. By weapons that we supplied them with. Not very pleasant, and quite evil, but certainly not the 400k-1million that you cite. Your accuracy is par for the course around here.
 

Hoops

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LOL...yes, they killed one million Kurds. That's real 'close' to being accurate, but might want to subtract a couple of 0's.
 

Tenzing

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gah

gah

Saddam launched multiples of dozens, around 40-60, of gas attacks against the kurds killings severl, sometimes dozens of thousands per attack, so using American math, thats about 500,000, numbers supported by every organization who has seen the brutality first hand and reported on it, such as the Red Crescent, Red Cross, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, among others.
It's sickening that you would try to defend Saddam, you worthless son of a bitch.
And you take time to ad hom but can't rebut my points, which is acquiescence, under any guise. You can try to hide under the banner of free speech, blah-blah, but you are anti-American, and moronic. This thread needs to be closed.
 

kosar

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Re: gah

Re: gah

Tenzing said:
Saddam launched multiples of dozens, around 40-60, of gas attacks against the kurds killings severl, sometimes dozens of thousands per attack, so using American math, thats about 500,000, numbers supported by every organization who has seen the brutality first hand and reported on it, such as the Red Crescent, Red Cross, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, among others.
It's sickening that you would try to defend Saddam, you worthless son of a bitch.
And you take time to ad hom but can't rebut my points, which is acquiescence, under any guise. You can try to hide under the banner of free speech, blah-blah, but you are anti-American, and moronic. This thread needs to be closed.


F*ck off, tenzing. Come up with even one credible source that a half million Kurds were killed. It was 1% of that, tops.

Nobody is defending Saddam you half-wit.

And what 'point' of yours would you like to be rebutted? Some nonsense about french yogurt turned into cheese?

Don't fly in here with your utter crap and then say that the thread should be closed you whiny b*itch.

Again, what point(?) of yours would you like to talk about?
 

djv

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I think someone is lost in numbers. Kurds maybe 10/15k and of course with items we help Saddam get from us. A milliiom just wont cut it. There is not many more then 3 million. An there not all in Iraq. Now Turkey one of our buddies has killed off a few Kurds also in the 1000's. So what should we do about those Turkes. Where you maybe getting mixed up is the 55/60K Iran lost in there war with Iraq. Once again with many items we gave our friend Saddam. Funny how we didn't give a chit all these years. Now we need to save the Iraqis from them selfs. And to do that were placing a few baa-th parties memebers back in power to help us. Those good guys we trusted all these years. We never learn. Im surprised we didn't help Saddam even gas more Iran soldiers. We hate Iran. So that was ok.
 

ozball

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Guys, guys, I've got it figured now....it was a million CURDS killed in the making of the French cheese from yogurt...all very clear now

ozball
 

Chanman

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Thought I'd pass along a few other views that came my way. This exerpt is from a friend, who shall remain nameless, but has a different outlook:

It these troubled times, there are many who feel our President/Commander In Chief has failed us. I see things a little different. He has not failed us, we have failed him. All those military and civilian (CIA and subcontractors) who mistreated prisoners under their personal care FAILED HIM. Our supposedly "friends/allies" Saudi Arabia and Pakistan have failed him. The tribal chiefs in Afghanistan all of which have their OWN agenda, have failed him. Those in the Defense Department that decided to send our warriors to war without the armor, weapons, even the best flak jackets have failed him. Those in Congress that spend more time in witch hunts than in supporting him have failed him, and certainly those in our many intelligence communities have failed him.

I know there will be those who read this that say I am way off base by thinking that the Saudis and Pakistanis and tribal leaders in Afghanistan have no obligation to "serve" him, but I say yes they do. They ALL depend on OUR country to provide the manpower to stop the international terrorism while they sit on their butts and sip tea. They take intel information we share and share it with our enemies. Saudi has financially supported and financed the training and operations of known terrorists for many years now. The tribal leaders in Afghanistan have been taking money from both sides for a couple of generations yet still promote their personal agendas. The growing of opium and distribution of same has NOT decreased since we shed our warriors blood to free their areas of the Taliban and Al Quieda. And Pakistan goes through the motions of chasing O'sama and his band of terrorists sporadically while the locals in the badlands areas of that country fully support him, offer him protection and comfort. AND




The American Military and Iraq - One Woman's Unique Perspective
Cholene Espinoza is the military journalist for Talk Radio. She was an embed with a Marine unit during the invasion of Iraq and returned once more to Iraq in June (she may have been there even more than twice). She has an enormous amount of experience in Iraq and the rest of the Middle East. Oh yeah, she was also a Air Force Captain piloting U-2 spy planes.

She wrote a thoughtful letter about the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal, to her Congresswoman - Representative Anna Eshoo. It is a unique perspective because the letter is based on Ms. Espinoza's own military and embed experiences, and she offers recommendations to fix some of the problems.

I received this from Ms. Espinoza's uncle who emailed it to the Marine All Hands network. He thought that this was something that you won't see in the media. He's right.

I do not know if my insight will be of help to you, but I feel compelled to share my perspective on the prison abuse situation in Iraq. I view this from the vantage point of having served in the military, and also having spent time in Iraq with our troops and with the Iraqis.
As soon as I saw the story on 60 Minutes II, I thought of the Air Force Academy scandal. I am concerned that this is also a systemic problem rooted in the occupation of Iraq.

Purpose of Iraqi incarceration from my vantage point:

To detain insurgents or accused insurgents and criminals
To extract information from the prisoners via interrogation
To entice prisoners to become informants for the coalition
Complaints from the Iraqi People:

Arrests are often arbitrary. It is up to the soldier or marine on the ground to determine via his/her judgment who gets arrested or not. I asked if there were a criteria for arrest and the soldiers told me, ?No, we just decide.? Another soldier said, ?If someone gives us a rough time we throw them in jail for a few days and then let them out or not.? The soldiers almost arrested man during a neighborhood raid who was living in the home of a former guard for one of Saddam?s top men. The house was full of Saddam clocks, pictures of Saddam, a monument to Saddam. The soldiers were going to arrest this man and then realized that he was one of the neighbor?s cousins who had simply found a nice place to live.

Due Process:

To my knowledge and to the knowledge of the Iraqi people, there is no form of due process or representation or way to get out of jail other than perhaps good behavior and/or cooperation. The perception is that this is severely unjust. The secrecy feeds resentment and conspiracy theories among the Iraqis.

Personnel/Training:

Lack of training: I did not go to a prison while I was in Iraq in June. But my experience while embedded with the Marines during the war led me to believe that there was no formal training for the treatment of POWs (keeping in mind, the people in the Iraqi prisons today are not POWs). My unit, the TOW Missile Platoon of the 1st Tank Battalion had some Reservists who trained as many as they could in the handling of prisoners (based on their experience as Texas Highway Patrolmen). They yelled at their fellow Marines when they were too harsh. They kept saying, ?We are liberating these people. Treat them with dignity.? It struck me as being very odd that our troops had no formal training in the treatment of prisoners, especially given the predictions before the war that so many Iraqis would surrender.

Personal stress on the part of soldiers: I went back to Iraq last June, and it was apparent that the stress of being shot at by ?civilians? had taken an enormous toll on the good will these Soldiers and Marines could extend to Iraqis. One solider told me ?I?m scared all the time.?

I think we all need to take a step back and realize the impossible mission we have handed over to the US military. They are supposed to be social workers by day and commando by night with no way to determine friend from foe. As an airline Captain after 9-11, one of my biggest challenges was convincing passengers and flight attendants that Arab looking people should be allowed to ride on the same plane with them. Try to imagine what a solider goes through each day given the number of them who have been attacked by ?ordinary looking Iraqis.? Supervision is the key here.

Examples of my formal training in the Air Force: While in the Air Force I went through two simulated ?POW? courses. I was put into a POW camp and treated accordingly. I was put in a small box, interrogated, deprived of food and sleep, forced to do labor, thrown around, had my urine dumped on me and put in solitary confinement. After I was assigned to fly the U-2, I attended an advanced course where they were allowed to hit me. I learned a tremendous amount about ?resistance.? The Air Force put me in a training environment in order to teach me the skills to resist the enemy if I was shot down. The behavior of these soldiers was of no surprise given what I had learned in the Air Force training. It is a brutal environment that brings out the worst in people.

As a senior cadet, I was in charge of the same POW camp. We learned how to interrogate and how easy it is for abuse to creep into operations. We were shown a documentary on the ?Stanford Syndrome.? It is a true story of a sociology course, I believe, at Stanford that conducted a prison experiment. The class was split up into inmates and guards. The abuse became so bad that they had to stop the experiment. The Air Force emphasized supervision and a continual sanity check to guard against such behaviors. I am told that the Air Force still uses this training film for its interrogators so that they do not fall prey to the Stanford Syndrome.

Unfortunately, the Air Force Academy had to discontinue this training due to some abuse cases. It is now conducted by official Air Force Survival Evasion Resistance Escape (SERE) personnel.

Troop Strength: The senior staff of the military claims that this abuse has nothing to do with a lack of uniformed personnel in Iraq; however, every time we had a break down in discipline in the military I served in for 13 years, it was due to a lack of supervision and/or training. I suspect that you will find that the ratio of prisoners to guards or guards to supervisors was not consistent with norms in other prisons.

Rules and Regulations Governing Iraqi Prisons:

I have researched while in Iraq and while at home to find what rules actually govern Iraqi prisons while under occupation. The problem is that soldiers do not know what rules they are operating under. One of the individuals who was part of these pictures said he had not seen a copy of the Geneva Conventions. This abuse stems in part from not having a clearly defined set of governing rules. The Bush Administration has put Iraq, Afghanistan and, Guantanamo into the all encompassing, perpetual war on terror. In reality, Iraq should be considered to be governed under the law of occupation under the Geneva conventions. This law puts the health and welfare on the back of the occupying force. If we were held accountable for this, we would be found severely lacking. The administration does reference ?Geneva Conventions,? but they do not seem to be applying it across the board.

Essentially, I think the abuse comes from the second and third mission of these prisons which is stated above, ?to extract information and entice prisoners to be informers.? I am confident that he soldiers who performed these acts had those two missions in mind.
 

Chanman

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Dignity:

The prison problem is symptomatic of a larger issue. Our soldiers have tried in many cases, but failed by the very nature of their job to preserve, let alone restore Iraqi dignity. House to house searches, tearing down fences, ruining roads (some eventually fixed but still destroyed), intrusive checkpoints, etc. has engendered immense ill will. Iraqis pulled me aside on raids and said, ?This is not the way.? In America, we complain if we have to take our shoes off while going through security. We honestly have no concept of the level of humiliation. You win wars with the military, not hearts and minds.


Mission: There is a 30 June ?hand over,? but I have not seen anything about what the mission of the US military will be at that time. I think this a train wreck waiting to happen. After the 30th, the Iraqi governing body (whatever that might be) will be technically responsible for Iraq. How will the US military fit into their governing structure? What does it mean to ?govern? if you are still occupied by 130,000 troops? I think this is a ?lose lose? for the US military and the Iraqi governing body. It was clear from the beginning and clear from my trips to Iraq that the DOD leadership wanted FULL control of Iraq. The CPA was held captive in the Green Zone due to security concerns. Our military tried to do it all and was doomed to fail given the enormous ?mission creep? that was brought on by the DOD itself, in my mind. What is their new roll and who will exercise control? They are doing so many missions now, when and how will their mission be tailored to the new government? Having been a member of the military, I never thought I would say this, but I think that given the DOD?s mismanagement, I think there needs to be more civilian control and oversight of the entire US mission in Iraq.

War: It is clear that we are still fighting a war in Iraq by the admission of this administration. This makes defining the role of the US military all the more necessary as we move into June.

Personnel: US troops are ill-suited to do reconstructions work for the psychological reasons stated above on the part of both the Iraqis and the soldiers. In my opinion we need to hire and empower Iraqis to rebuild as well as people from the local nations. I was in Jordan prior to the war, where I met several Iraqis who were working in Jordan (I was told there were about 250,000). I also met Jordanians who had worked and trained in Iraq. Why not formalize this exchange? We were very quick to privatize the Iraqi economy. This resulted in mass unemployment as the Iraqis saw it. They lived in a Soviet/Centralized economy where everyone had a job, even if it was a lousy job. Now they have no job and are sitting around complaining about the US and in some cases doing more than complaining. I would recommend putting Iraqis and locals back to work on the government payroll and get the non-security US military out of Iraq.

Training: First redefine what the mission of the Iraqis prison system is versus what it should be and review the cases of people in prison to expedite release. Then train the personnel to support that mission and include Iraqis, (what will happen after 30 June?). And insure that they personnel are supervised and there are enough personnel to do the job commensurate with incarceration standards elsewhere. A lack of training and supervision have historically been at the root of abuse.

Perspective: The only positive sides to this are that our nation is not burying this in secret investigations (thanks to Congress). Also, we should remember that yes, US soldiers did this, but it was also a US soldier who gave these pictures to his/her commander and to the press. This distinguishes us from the former Iraqi regime.

One last note, when I was sitting on the border of Iraq with the Marines waiting to invade, I turned to the 19 and 22 year old I was with and said, ?The future of our country is in your hands.? They asked, ?Why do you say that?? I replied, ?Because your judgment and your conduct in this war and after the war will dictate in the end whether this war was just or not in the minds of the world.? There was a long silence after I said that. Today I feel like these men were sold short with too much mission, too few people and too little training.

Of course, time will tell if her worries are well-founded (my opinion is that they are correct). But that doesn't mean that the military and the government shouldn't start looking at her recommendations immediately.

Hopefully, Representative Eshoo will take Ms. Espinoza's letter, temperment, and balanced evaluation to heart. Our troops deserve no less.

Last, but not least...

SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T MAKE THE NEWS

Maybe you?d like to hear about something other than idiot Reservists and naked Iraqis.

Maybe you?d like to hear about a real American, somebody who honored the uniform he wears.

Meet Brian Chontosh.

Churchville-Chili Central School class of 1991. Proud graduate of the Rochester Institute of Technology. Husband and about-to-be father. First lieutenant in the United States Marine Corps.

And a genuine hero.

The secretary of the Navy said so yesterday.

At 29 Palms in California Brian Chontosh was presented with the Navy Cross, the second highest award for combat bravery the United States can bestow.

That?s a big deal.

But you won?t see it on the network news tonight, and all you read in Brian?s hometown newspaper was two paragraphs of nothing. Instead, it was more blather about some mental defective MPs who acted like animals.

The odd fact about the American media in this war is that it?s not covering the American military. The most plugged-in nation in the world is receiving virtually no true information about what its warriors are doing.

Oh, sure, there?s a body count. We know how many Americans have fallen. And we see those same casket pictures day in and day out. And we?re almost on a first-name basis with the pukes who abused the Iraqi prisoners. And we know all about improvised explosive devices and how we lost Fallujah and what Arab public-opinion polls say about us and how the world hates us.

We get a non-stop feed of gloom and doom.

But we don?t hear about the heroes.

The incredibly brave GIs who honorably do their duty. The ones our grandparents would have carried on their shoulders down Fifth Avenue.

The ones we completely ignore.

Like Brian Chontosh.

It was a year ago on the march into Baghdad. Brian Chontosh was a platoon leader rolling up Highway 1 in a humvee.

When all hell broke loose.

Ambush city.

The young Marines were being cut to ribbons. Mortars, machine guns, rocket propelled grenades. And the kid out of Churchville was in charge. It was do or die and it was up to him.

So he moved to the side of his column, looking for a way to lead his men to safety. As he tried to poke a hole through the Iraqi line his humvee came under direct enemy machine gun fire.

It was fish in a barrel and the Marines were the fish.

And Brian Chontosh gave the order to attack. He told his driver to floor the humvee directly at the machine gun emplacement that was firing at them. And he had the guy on top with the .50 cal unload on them.

Within moments there were Iraqis slumped across the machine gun and Chontosh was still advancing, ordering his driver now to take the humvee directly into the Iraqi trench that was attacking his Marines. Over into the battlement the humvee went and out the door Brian Chontosh bailed, carrying an M16 and a Beretta and 228 years of Marine Corps pride.

And he ran down the trench.

With its mortars and riflemen, machineguns and grenadiers.

And he killed them all.

He fought with the M16 until it was out of ammo. Then he fought with the Beretta until it was out of ammo. Then he picked up a dead man?s AK47 and fought with that until it was out of ammo. Then he picked up another dead man?s AK47 and fought with that until it was out of ammo.

At one point he even fired a discarded Iraqi RPG into an enemy cluster, sending attackers flying with its grenade explosion.

When he was done Brian Chontosh had cleared 200 yards of entrenched Iraqis from his platoon?s flank. He had killed more than 20 and wounded at least as many more.

But that?s probably not how he would tell it.

He would probably merely say that his Marines were in trouble, and he got them out of trouble. Hoo-ah, and drive on.

?By his outstanding display of decisive leadership, unlimited courage in the face of heavy enemy fire, and utmost devotion to duty, 1st Lt. Chontosh reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and the United States Naval Service.?

That?s what the citation says.

And that?s what nobody will hear.

That?s what doesn?t seem to be making the evening news. Accounts of American valor are dismissed by the press as propaganda, yet accounts of American difficulties are heralded as objectivity. It makes you wonder if the role of the media is to inform, or to depress ? to report or to deride. To tell the truth, or to feed us lies.

But I guess it doesn?t matter.

We?re going to turn out all right.

As long as men like Brian Chontosh wear our uniform.
 

yyz

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Re: sigh

Re: sigh

Tenzing said:
You are all duly noted as morons. Have a good day.


Why? Because you have such a hard-on to impress everyone with your flowery vocabulary, that none of your thought process makes a fuhking ounce of sense? Because all of your freshly garnered "knowledge" is bullshit? Chat amongst the rest of the "think tank" at school, you snot-nosed fuk, and leave us morons to our small world views.
 
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djv

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yyz :iagree:
And to those who keep saying our men and woman were never trained how to take care of prisnors. Please! You take care of them the same way you hope to be treated if a prisnor.
True much of the world does not believe in that. To bad we do.
 
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