Bush Supporters.... An Apology From Me

[TossingSalads]

I came in to your forum here to discuss politics and some of the main issues with you. I tend to use some tongue in cheek comments and some off the wall conspiracy theories as well as some little known facts about your administration to entertain but also to open up some healthy debate. I know some of the things I have brought to the forefront in here are hurtful and you'd rather not hear about them, much less debate them. For that I apologize.
It is a shame that this Country is so polarized by the two party system, that we sometimes let our "team" get in the way of our Country. We are all Americans and all very patriotic. America is the best country in the world, there is no debating that. Blind faith in your government and blind partisinship is very detremental to the nation. I have always tried to vote for the best man for the job, however I do lean to the left on some issues. I can however vote Republican. I could easily vote for John McCain, Rudy G, Colin Powell prior to his lies, etc etc.. The Conservatives on this board could never cross party lines even if they know their Government is lieing. John McCain questions the Pressident or does not aid in attacking Kerry and the ditto heads cut him off at the knees. I personally feel Kerry is the lesser of two evils, but that is my right. I can also criticize him, Clinton, Gore, and anyother Liberal. I just want to know why you Conservatives can not criticize your guys? I have brought up many topics in alot of my threads looking to enlighten you and learn some from you as well. I get nothing but name calling and avoidance of the topic. I'm not trying to change anyones vote. I'm not expecting any answers to this thread other than from the few usual suspects who can't debate any issues or my points. They just pray that I'm not right, and turn into Rush and Shaun to get reassurace. If you are up for a little healthy debate I challenge you to the following questions. Yes you are being called out.

#1) If Clinton could be impeached for lieing to America about his sex life, should we not consider impeaching Bush for lieing to America in a state of the union address?

#2) Why does it not bother you that Wolfowitz, Cheney and Rumsfeld had this plan for War with Iraq befor Bush took office and came up with the WMD Lie to sell it to a grieving nation to sell it?

#3) Do you think the Bush policy has made us safer, or created more terrorists, more hostility, and more hatred from the Arab world and isolated us from our allies?

#4) Will you admit that we would have been better off staying the course in Afghanistan?

#5) Does your president have a plan in Iraq? Are you ready to admit that we are in a mess over there that stems from porr planning.

6) Everyone wants to Connect Bin Laden with Saddam. Please explain how the presidents family has stronger ties to the Bin laden Family than Sadadam ever had?

And last but not least... Follow Close
If The Pnac Group lobbied for a war in Iraq in 1998
If the Pnac group members included Rumsfeld, Cheney and Wolfowitz,
If all of these men all wound up in Gw's Cabinet

Did George w Bush Mislead the American Public for a war with Iraq?

 

[AR182]

tossing salads quote:#1) If Clinton could be impeached for lieing to America about his sex life, should we not consider impeaching Bush for lieing to America in a state of the union address?"



i guess you are not familiar with bob woodward (sp?) just published book where he was allowed access to the various meetings of bush & his administration.

in one particular meeting between bush & tenant talking about iraq'a wmd, woodward writes in his book that quotes bush asking tenent, " is that all you got ?" about evidence of wmd.

woodward answers bush," trust me, mr. president there is plenty of evidence in iraq".

all of you bush haters can think that bush lied, that they planned attacking iraq before 9/11, that they are getting kick-backs from haliburton, etc.

i have two words for you-----

proove it.

and don't give us supposition or quoting to about what is written in books.


proove-it !!!

 

[TossingSalads]

So Let me get this straight. You want to quote a book but I can't? Secondly it was Tenant that that said trust me Mr Bush not Woodward.

 

[TossingSalads]

Ar you are one of the more intelligent and polite guys on this board. I enjoy reading what you have to say. The PNAC iswas and is a real organization. check out their website. I can provide you a link if you like. It is all there.


I'm surprised that you only found that one statement to take issue with.

 

[djv]

Im told to stay positive so I will try. Very hard when everyday were fed nothing but the story of a changing Iraq. No one seemed to have any idea what the hell they were getting into.
They cant even workout a good story for the young man who had his head cut off. CIA/FBI? No one knows.
And while everyone stays on this issue. The real issus of security dont get discussed. And all he inflation thats coming are way no one mentions it. We need are leaders to start taking about the positive things they wish to offer this country other then Iraq.
That might even help us feal more positive.

 

[AR182]

ts,

i'm sorry if i wasn't clear. i meant tenant said it, not woodward.

i quoted woodward because it's first hand knowledge & the complete book was endorsed by the w.h.

you can quote any book you want, but points should be substantiated.

i would like to think that i am open minded & willing to read anything pertaining to this topic. so yes i would like to read about that site.


i may get kidded for this, but i tend to look at this forum as a little community with many different points of view. i like to think each poster as a neighbor. & since i was taught to respect my neighbors, i tend to be polite towards a poster.

 

[TossingSalads]

The Woodward book is great. Here is an article from the ap with some direct quotes from it.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush secretly ordered a war plan drawn up against Iraq less than two months after U.S. forces attacked Afghanistan and was so worried the decision would cause a furor he did not tell everyone on his national security team, says a new book on his Iraq policy.

Bush feared that if news got out about the Iraq plan as U.S. forces were fighting another conflict, people would think he was too eager for war, journalist Bob Woodward writes in "Plan of Attack," a behind-the-scenes account of the 16 months leading to the Iraq invasion.

The Associated Press obtained a copy of the book, which will be available in book stores next week.

"I knew what would happen if people thought we were developing a potential war plan for Iraq," Bush is quoted as telling Woodward. "It was such a high-stakes moment and ... it would look like that I was anxious to go to war. And I'm not anxious to go to war."

Bush and his aides have denied accusations they were preoccupied with Iraq at the cost of paying attention to the al Qaeda terrorist threat before the September 11, 2001, attacks. A commission investigating the attacks just concluded several weeks of extraordinary public testimony from high-ranking government officials. One of them, former counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke, charged the Bush administration's determination to invade Iraq undermined the war on terror.

Woodward's account fleshes out the degree to which some members of the administration, particularly Vice President Dick Cheney, were focused on Saddam Hussein from the onset of Bush's presidency and even after the terrorist attacks made the destruction of al-Qaida the top priority.

Woodward says Bush pulled Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld aside November 21, 2001 -- when U.S. forces and allies were in control of about half of Afghanistan -- and asked him what kind of war plan he had on Iraq. When Rumsfeld said it was outdated, Bush told him to get started on a fresh one.

The book says Bush told Rumsfeld to keep quiet about it and when the defense secretary asked to bring CIA Director George Tenet into the planning at some point, the president said not to do so yet.

Even Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, was apparently not fully briefed. Woodward said Bush told her that morning he was having Rumsfeld work on Iraq but did not give details.

In an interview two years later, Bush told Woodward that if the news had leaked, it would have caused "enormous international angst and domestic speculation."

The Bush administration's drive toward war with Iraq raised an international furor anyway, alienating long-time allies who did not believe the White House had made a sufficient case against Saddam. Saddam was toppled a year ago and taken into custody last December. But the central figure of al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, remains at large and a threat to the west.

The book says Gen. Tommy Franks, who was in charge of the Afghan war as head of Central Command, uttered a string of obscenities when the Pentagon told him to come up with an Iraq war plan in the midst of fighting another conflict.

Cheney allegedly influential
Woodward, a Washington Post journalist who wrote an earlier book on Bush's anti-terrorism campaign and broke the Watergate scandal with Carl Bernstein, says Cheney's well-known hawkish attitudes on Iraq were frequently decisive in Bush's decision-making.

Cheney pressed the outgoing Clinton administration to brief Bush on the Iraq threat before he took office, Woodward writes.

In August 2002, when Bush talked publicly of being a patient man who would weigh Iraqi options carefully, the vice president took the administration's Iraq policy on a harder track in a speech declaring the weapons inspections ineffective. Cheney's speech was viewed as the beginning of a campaign to undermine or overthrow Saddam. Woodward said Bush let Cheney make the speech without asking what he would say.

The vice president also figured prominently in a protracted decision March 19, 2003, to strike Iraq before a 48-hour ultimatum for Saddam Hussein to leave the country had expired.

When the CIA and its Iraqi sources reported that Saddam's sons and other family members were at a small palace, and Saddam was on his way to join them, Bush's top advisers debated whether to strike ahead of plan.

Franks was against it, saying it was unfair to move before a deadline announced to the other side, the book says. Rumsfeld and Rice favored the early strike, and Secretary of State Colin Powell leaned that way.

But Bush did not make his decision until he had cleared everyone out of the Oval Office except the vice president. "I think we ought to go for it," Cheney is quoted as saying. Bush did.

U.S. forces unleashed bombs and cruise missiles, blanketing the compound but missing the palace. Tenet called the White House before dawn to say the Iraqi leader had been killed. But his optimism was premature. Saddam was alive.

 

[ceciol]

Re: Bush Supporters.... An Apology From Me

It is a shame that this Country is so polarized by the two party system

Amen to that. It is only getting worse, too.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

1 1st the fact is not what Clinton lied about it is the fact he knowingly and blantantly lied and not only on tv shaking his finger at you but under oath.

Now show me where Bush has been proven to have knowing lied??Not your liberal allegations but proof.

--and the rest can be answered in one statement.
I am more convinced now than at start of war that it was the correct thing to do.--and I think many other Americans feel same way. I don't know what the end result will be but I do know what happens when you look the other way and do nothing.

and for your statement
"

---and for the life of me I can read state of union and all the voting in the U.N prior and it was about Saddams failure to comply with resolutions that we went to war. Show me where anyone stated we are going to war because of wmd's despite everyone from both parties indicating they thought that was an extreme possibilty.

and on your statement
"And last but not least... Follow Close
If The Pnac Group lobbied for a war in Iraq in 1998
If the Pnac group members included Rumsfeld, Cheney and Wolfowitz,
If all of these men all wound up in Gw's Cabinet"

Please tell me which of these have been (convicted) of a crime?
Do you from the left have a clue what the difference between spin and convictions? While you have so much time on your hands do a little research how many of the cabinet in last admistration ,the ones that lived left office and were prosecuted? and while on the subject of convictions stroll through these to give you a clue of the meaning of the word. Mind you these do not include the 100+ felons he pardoned.

Criminals: All these people have served prison sentences for illegal activity in a Clinton scandal. They either were convicted or pled guilty. There are over 15 convictions/guilty pleas from Starr's investigation plus several others from other scandal investigations.

Whitewater:
AK Gov. Jim Guy Tucker - fraud felony convictions - 3 counts (Tucker resigned facing impeachment)
Jim McDougal - fraud and conspiracy felony convictions - 18 counts
Susan McDougal - felony - 4 counts (pardoned during Clinton's last minute pardongate payoffs)
William J. Marks Sr - conspiracy
Stephen Smith - conspiracy
Larry Kuca - Fraud
Neal Ainley - 2 misdemeanors for embezzlement
David Hale - guilty plea - conspiracy
Chris Wade - felony - Whitewater real-estate investor
John Haley - recent! 1998 on fraud
Robert Palmer - felony for conspiracy
Charles Matthews - guilty plea for bribery
Eugene Fitzhugh - Whitewater - bribery
Webster Hubbell - #2 ranking Justice Dept. Official - felony for embezzlement and fraud
John Latham - CEO of Madison Bank - bank fraud
Campaign Finance:
Johnny Chung - Clinton cronie - felony guilty plea - funneling money from China
Gene Lum - convicted - felony for money laundering for the DNC
Nora Lum - convicted - felony for money laundering for the DNC
Howard Glicken - guilty plea - 2 midemeanors - funneling foreign donations
Yah Lin "Charlie" Trie - guilty plea - illegal Clinton campaign donations
John Huang - Clinton cronie - felony guilty plea - funneling money from China
Paula Jonesgate:
William Jefferson Clinton - found guilty - civil contempt of court - lying under oath about material facts. The Office of the Independent Council further presented Clinton with an agreement that had him disbarred from practicing law for 5 years and made him signed statement admitting to his deception

 

[TossingSalads]

DTB, With all due respect who said anything about convictions?
All I said that The PNAC PLANNED and Lobbied for war with Iraq.
Those men that I mentioned were all original and policy makers of the PNAC. THey all wound up in his cabinet. We went to war with Iraq.

Now Either it was the plan all along and Bush Mislead America.
Or He is a Colossal Idiot for letting them lead him like a stupid little puppy to War.



How quickly we bring up Clinton as defense. I love it.

 

[IntenseOperator]

DTB

DTB

I'm always amazed out how the whole "UNDER OATH" is always forgotten, glossed over, or totally bypassed.

But

I guess this illegal act shouldn't matter

 

[TossingSalads]

I never said Clinton should not have been impeached for lieing under oath. See that is my point I can criticize and see when my party f's up

 

[IntenseOperator]

The subject of this thread, as "positive" as it is,

NOT

Is just another sugar-coated slam

 

[kneifl]

I would like to vote again..............

I would like to vote again..............

A) Tossing Salads posts are a joke

B) Tossing Salads posts are a joke

C) Tossing Salads posts are a joke

D) Tossing Salads posts are a joke

Tough decision here folks, but I think I'll take B....seems like the best choice for me.....

kneifl

 

[TossingSalads]

Again someone not able to discuss any of my points.



Here is more Bob woodward.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25550-2004Apr19.html

 

[TossingSalads]

I still have not had anyone address why we didn't stay the course in Afghanistan and would we be better off?

And how about an honest answer to number 3 guys.


Kneifl my posts may waste your time. Your inability to answer any of my questions is a waste of mine.
The policy in Iraq is a waste of lives and a waste of money.

 

[TossingSalads]

hmmm Woodward

hmmm Woodward

-- President Bush secretly ordered a war plan drawn up against Iraq less than two months after U.S. forces attacked Afghanistan and was so worried the decision would cause a furor he did not tell everyone on his national security team, says a new book on his Iraq policy.

Bush feared that if news got out about the Iraq plan as U.S. forces were fighting another conflict, people would think he was too eager for war, journalist Bob Woodward writes in "Plan of Attack," a behind-the-scenes account of the 16 months leading to the Iraq invasion.

The Associated Press obtained a copy of the book, which will be available in book stores next week.

"I knew what would happen if people thought we were developing a potential war plan for Iraq," Bush is quoted as telling Woodward. "It was such a high-stakes moment and ... it would look like that I was anxious to go to war. And I'm not anxious to go to war."

Bush and his aides have denied accusations they were preoccupied with Iraq at the cost of paying attention to the al Qaeda terrorist threat before the September 11, 2001, attacks. A commission investigating the attacks just concluded several weeks of extraordinary public testimony from high-ranking government officials. One of them, former counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke, charged the Bush administration's determination to invade Iraq undermined the war on terror.

Woodward's account fleshes out the degree to which some members of the administration, particularly Vice President Dick Cheney, were focused on Saddam Hussein from the onset of Bush's presidency and even after the terrorist attacks made the destruction of al-Qaida the top priority.

Woodward says Bush pulled Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld aside November 21, 2001 -- when U.S. forces and allies were in control of about half of Afghanistan -- and asked him what kind of war plan he had on Iraq. When Rumsfeld said it was outdated, Bush told him to get started on a fresh one.

The book says Bush told Rumsfeld to keep quiet about it and when the defense secretary asked to bring CIA Director George Tenet into the planning at some point, the president said not to do so yet.

Even Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, was apparently not fully briefed. Woodward said Bush told her that morning he was having Rumsfeld work on Iraq but did not give details.

In an interview two years later, Bush told Woodward that if the news had leaked, it would have caused "enormous international angst and domestic speculation."

The Bush administration's drive toward war with Iraq raised an international furor anyway, alienating long-time allies who did not believe the White House had made a sufficient case against Saddam. Saddam was toppled a year ago and taken into custody last December. But the central figure of al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, remains at large and a threat to the west.

The book says Gen. Tommy Franks, who was in charge of the Afghan war as head of Central Command, uttered a string of obscenities when the Pentagon told him to come up with an Iraq war plan in the midst of fighting another conflict.

 

[stomie]

I don't know shit about politics but didn't Saddam even think he had WMD?

 

[IntenseOperator]

I don't know shit about politics but didn't Saddam even think he had WMD?

Stomie, there you go making sense:nono:

he's in on the scam

He was making it up too

 

[TossingSalads]

Quotes

Quotes

President Bush's Statements On Iraq's Weapons Of Mass Destruction

Readers may not recall exactly what President Bush said about weapons of mass destruction; I certainly didn't. Thus, I have compiled these statements below. In reviewing them, I saw that he had, indeed, been as explicit and declarative as I had recalled.

Bush's statements, in chronological order, were:

United Nations Address, Sept. 12, 2002:


"Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons."
Radio Address, Oct. 5, 2002:


"Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons."

"We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have."
Cincinnati, Ohio Speech, Oct. 7, 2002:


"The Iraqi regime... possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons."

"We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas."

"We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States."

"The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program. Saddam Hussein has held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, a group he calls his "nuclear mujahideen" -- his nuclear holy warriors. Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past. Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons."
State of the Union Address, Jan. 28, 2003:


"Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent."
Address to the Nation, March 17, 2003:


"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."