This has me puzzeled

DOGS THAT BARK

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Was reading an OPEC remark on oil prices and here was one of their quips which has me puzzeled--maybe AR or Kirk or others can shed some light on how it would tie in with oil prices.

"Beyond that, say traders, oil price direction is largely in the hands of the big investment funds, mostly U.S. based, who have taken oil markets by storm this year. "
 

gardenweasel

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"the bunker"
i`ve read

i`ve read

that economic growth and demand in burgeoning,emerging industrialized society`s like china and india are driving the prices up.....

supply and demand...

but,funny how it all happened so quickly...

sounds shaky to me..
 

djv

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OPEC seems to have there timeing down. Investors seem to know it before OPEC states there cutting back. Then the run up grap some proffits and a lot jump back out. Most hold the real good ones if the div's they pay stay up. I dont see a whole lot new or differant. Prices should start down soon. My guess is they make us pay good till M Day. Is funny tho how the stations take price up 5/7/9 cents at a pop. But on way down it's more like 2/3 &4.
 

TonyTT

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djv,
You're absolutely right about investors seeming to know before OPEC makes their announcement. One of the biggest refining guru's over the past 25 yrs...THOMAS O'MALLEY ...told our refining group in 02 that the price was heading sky high. O'Malley was hired by PETE PETERSON himself ( founder of the notorious BLACKSTONE investment group and a FEDERAL RESERVE shaker and mover)...to run his PREMCOR refining outfit.
These moneymen seem to use OPEC as a "fall guy" to shoulder the blame for prices. Of course Saudi Arabia is the "string puller" in OPEC.....it wouldn't surprise me one bit to find that the royal family of Saudi, dances to the tune of these moneymen.

TT
 

selkirk

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"Beyond that, say traders, oil price direction is largely in the hands of the big investment funds, mostly U.S. based, who have taken oil markets by storm this year. "


DTB oil trades just like any other commodity, I do not believe with the above quote though.

for instance some people believe that if there less trouble in many oil producing regions oil would be trading for around $35. up to a $5 premium is because hedge funds are pushing the prices up (should say bidding them up).
hedge funds, investors, specualtors

there was some attacks on western oil workers and interests in Saudia Arabia, after these attacks oil went higher. it is hard to short a commodity when there could be trouble problems in a major producer.


where I disagree with the quotes is I do not believe "oil price direction is largely in the hands of the big investment funds, mostly U.S. based, who have taken oil markets by storm this year. "

me and you can speculate on what a certain commodity does however we cannot control the price. I mean if hedge funds stop going long and go short the price will not fall to $20 a barrel.

such specualation may add a few dollars to the price but they do not control it.

could go into my history of trading futures (most worked out/except for coffee) that was a disaster. but these are hard to play and no hedge fund can control the moves all the time.


here are some reasons for the price of oil, as for specualtion from hedge funds only a small amount can be attibuted to that.


1. supply demand. the worldwide and US economy are doing much better more demand.
2. supply. there is a big question of how much supply we have, there is a feeling that we can find plenty more. Really someone can list major finds. I will list projects that have been disappointing because of the small amount of oil. larger elephants finds are much harder to find.

also many new areas of exploration require higher oil prices $30 + to take the risk. You are not drilling in the north or offshore Canada east coast for $20-$25 oil, to make a 13%+ or even dream of that you need $30+

3. I know everyone wants to blame OPEC and most US politiceans do however when was the last time a refinery was built....1980s?
4. just compare to how much refinery capacity has increased during that time and how much fuel demand has gone up.
5. to build a refinery would take more than $100-$250 million just for the planning and the enivornmental restrictions. not to mention local, state, federal laws. which could stop it at any time.

why invest $250 million on a longshot. would also require around 2-3 billion to build one. believe none are being planned or built at present.
6. OPEC is producing roughly 23.5-24 millionbarrels a day, and are producing 2million over this at present.

they may be able to produce 2 million more however not much more than that.

7. trouble in oil producing regions. Sauia Arabia is a prime example. more problems with the government and terrorists attacks probably will continue.

you could long and if a terrorist attack happens in Saudia Arabia then then price pushes higher.


I believe the price of oil will fall to around $35, however long term very bullish on oil and natural gas.

hoping for a pullback to $35 or more and then start looking at Jr. oil/gas companies. These companies can sell off sharply and be forgotten quickly.

thanks
selkirk
 

IntenseOperator

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Sellkirk

Sellkirk

#3 and #4 are right on

The oil companies won't build more refineries for a few reasons.

They have to be built environmentally friendly.
With the right party in power, demand could drop.
With the right economic conditions, demand could drop.
With the right advancements in technology, demand could drop.
(all of the last three could happen at the same time)
And they are basically being extremely productive financially by squeezing all they can out of what few refineries are left. By doing this, they are also printing their own money.

There is absolutely no incentive for them to build.

From what I heard on the radio, California has it the worst in the country as far as demand and the current numbers of refineries.


As far as investment funds being the be-all end-all in any financial situation....
I think the markets by their nature, catch these ploys and they end up not being the golden goose they once were. That Soros cat had the system beat for a long time, I believe he is not the tower of power he once was. The markets have built in traps for any system IMO. I don't know much about the markets, but I have heard/read about groups, backed by big $$, cranking out monster returns for stretches, only to have the markets, by nature, catch up and consume all the gains back and then some. It's all back to basic gambling and money management. Someone may be pulling the strings of the oil situation for now, but in the big picture, it's really just a short term flavor of the day.
 

djv

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No way any new refineries are built. This plan was staked out 15 years ago. It's a play on if not oil staying at a certain dollar level. Another way to say gas must stay at a certain value. Three years back $1.10 gas was last time I believe you ever see it again. Or we all get 30 mile to the gallon transportation and ride more bikes and do some good healty walking. Supply and demand could come down big time. But are enough Americans ready to do it.
And lets hope these terroist are not smart enough to blow afew tankers up. I believe they would only get a chance or two. After that the tankers would end up being escorted by Navies of the world.
 
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