Your answer makes no sense Chan. And DTB knows what I'm saying. You for some reason do not. And Chan I don't need to prove anything to you.
"He should apologize."
- Thread starter Chopsticks
- Start date
dogs, regarding the links, I was speaking of your posting #42, reference to the Free Republic.com (a conservative news source).
Frankly that is neither here or there, honestly I look at the political banter as friendly conversation that I would enjoy with friends at any neighborhood bar. Unfortunately threads like this particularly this one have digressed to a level of anger and dislike I'm not really comfortable with. In the 18 + years since my injury I've learned 2 things patience, and the fact that some things just aren't that important.
While I can certainly understand the distaste some veterans hold for Mr. Kerrys comments following the war, I genuinely don't understand other decorated veterans such as yourself questioning thereby slandering the Senators service. Are politics that important? Are partisan politics that important to cause fellow veterans to spit on and demean others service. Honestly I don't know having not been there, and I certainly yield to you dtb as possessing infinitely more knowledge than myself on this subject, but is this what politics in our country has become?
Dtb, you stated above most people like Kerry didn't enter service through the Navy, but wasn't it relatively common place for someone like Kerry (a graduate from a school like Yale) entering the service through the Navy. I mean isn't that how JFK, his old brother, and even 41 entered, through the Navy. I believe Mr. Kerry was on his second tour when he was made commander of the Swift boat. I also believe I read their was a 75% chance of being KIA in this position, is that not worthy of at least some respect?
Again sir, although I don't possess the first hand knowledge of being there, I have spent great portions of my life talking and listening to veterans. Some of this I gather was because I spent 17 months in a VA HOSPITAL, another reason is because although I went to college on a athletic scholarship at a college recognized within the top 20 in the nation in engineering I only interviewed with 2 companies prior to my injury, Navy & Air Force, I fully expected to be given my service to one of the 2. So the time spent was always rewarding for me.
One thing that became extremely obvious was that very few veterans, at least that I spoke with did not see, do or hear about things that would forever change their lives. Its been conveyed to me, that in fact was the overwhelming reason for the massive inherent drug problems with American Vietnam veterans Over there & upon their return. I will never forget this one Marine tearfully told me how himself and friends threw apples as far as they could out into a lake and took odds on which kid would get the apple, knowing full well some would drowned trying. Was this the norm, I'm sure it wasn't, again I'm full willing yielding you will forever know infinitely more than me, and as I stated before I fully RESPECT AND HONOR, yours and all veterans service, but isn't it somewhat convenient and tactical remembrance to believe some of what the Senator said did take place? Maybe he went overboard, maybe he should have kept his mouth shut, but isn't that exactly why so many veterans of that war have taken their own lives? From being quiet, from not speaking about their problems? I don't know dtb, but I'll tell you as a middle age American who greatly cares about this country, this whole political system & all the negativity that goes with it a greatly troubles me.
Frankly that is neither here or there, honestly I look at the political banter as friendly conversation that I would enjoy with friends at any neighborhood bar. Unfortunately threads like this particularly this one have digressed to a level of anger and dislike I'm not really comfortable with. In the 18 + years since my injury I've learned 2 things patience, and the fact that some things just aren't that important.
While I can certainly understand the distaste some veterans hold for Mr. Kerrys comments following the war, I genuinely don't understand other decorated veterans such as yourself questioning thereby slandering the Senators service. Are politics that important? Are partisan politics that important to cause fellow veterans to spit on and demean others service. Honestly I don't know having not been there, and I certainly yield to you dtb as possessing infinitely more knowledge than myself on this subject, but is this what politics in our country has become?
Dtb, you stated above most people like Kerry didn't enter service through the Navy, but wasn't it relatively common place for someone like Kerry (a graduate from a school like Yale) entering the service through the Navy. I mean isn't that how JFK, his old brother, and even 41 entered, through the Navy. I believe Mr. Kerry was on his second tour when he was made commander of the Swift boat. I also believe I read their was a 75% chance of being KIA in this position, is that not worthy of at least some respect?
Again sir, although I don't possess the first hand knowledge of being there, I have spent great portions of my life talking and listening to veterans. Some of this I gather was because I spent 17 months in a VA HOSPITAL, another reason is because although I went to college on a athletic scholarship at a college recognized within the top 20 in the nation in engineering I only interviewed with 2 companies prior to my injury, Navy & Air Force, I fully expected to be given my service to one of the 2. So the time spent was always rewarding for me.
One thing that became extremely obvious was that very few veterans, at least that I spoke with did not see, do or hear about things that would forever change their lives. Its been conveyed to me, that in fact was the overwhelming reason for the massive inherent drug problems with American Vietnam veterans Over there & upon their return. I will never forget this one Marine tearfully told me how himself and friends threw apples as far as they could out into a lake and took odds on which kid would get the apple, knowing full well some would drowned trying. Was this the norm, I'm sure it wasn't, again I'm full willing yielding you will forever know infinitely more than me, and as I stated before I fully RESPECT AND HONOR, yours and all veterans service, but isn't it somewhat convenient and tactical remembrance to believe some of what the Senator said did take place? Maybe he went overboard, maybe he should have kept his mouth shut, but isn't that exactly why so many veterans of that war have taken their own lives? From being quiet, from not speaking about their problems? I don't know dtb, but I'll tell you as a middle age American who greatly cares about this country, this whole political system & all the negativity that goes with it a greatly troubles me.
stevie,
but why did he have to lie & exaggerate in front of congress in the 1970's about what was going on in nam ?
i would think that it was bad enough without him embellishing on it.
but why did he have to lie & exaggerate in front of congress in the 1970's about what was going on in nam ?
i would think that it was bad enough without him embellishing on it.
AR, I do not know if he lied. But if he did and it helped end the killing sooner than what is wrong with that. We had a lot of guys come home messed up in the head. I don't know why those incidents from Vietnam seemed to be higher than from other wars. It was a terrible war that was extended unnecessarily and thank god it finally ended before more damage was done to our country and those who fought..
The reason the Kerry issue has been politically motivated is HE made it an issue initially when he started campaigning going as far as bringing those he served with him to rally's.
When he makes it an issue and trys to portray himself as some sort of hero he opens himself to scrutiny.
--and when he says what he did about veterns there that did serve honorably he makes it a double issue.
I just don't understand your statement DJV
"Kerry was awarded his for reasons none of us truly know. But again I'm sure he earned them."
Which is it? If no one knows how can you be sure he earned it?
Maybe we all see what we want to see but 2 things are certain--
He got in country and immediatly took a little peice of schrapnel in one hand (and what was reported per Globe and several sources including aid station attendent and superior officer and not disputed by Kerry) and what resembled a finger nail scratch on the other and HE requested Purple Heart. Definately not Marine material--and after accumulating another 2 as he described "walking wounded" immediately requested to get the F--K out of country--returned to U.S to carry out campaign against others.
--and how much courage does it take to speak out against a war and those who serve????
He may be your hero but he sure as hell is not mine--however we all are entitled to our opinions--and thats what makes the world go round.
Shamrock Nice write up. You have always appeared to me as a very compassionate person which this world need much more of.
When he makes it an issue and trys to portray himself as some sort of hero he opens himself to scrutiny.
--and when he says what he did about veterns there that did serve honorably he makes it a double issue.
I just don't understand your statement DJV
"Kerry was awarded his for reasons none of us truly know. But again I'm sure he earned them."
Which is it? If no one knows how can you be sure he earned it?
Maybe we all see what we want to see but 2 things are certain--
He got in country and immediatly took a little peice of schrapnel in one hand (and what was reported per Globe and several sources including aid station attendent and superior officer and not disputed by Kerry) and what resembled a finger nail scratch on the other and HE requested Purple Heart. Definately not Marine material--and after accumulating another 2 as he described "walking wounded" immediately requested to get the F--K out of country--returned to U.S to carry out campaign against others.
--and how much courage does it take to speak out against a war and those who serve????
He may be your hero but he sure as hell is not mine--however we all are entitled to our opinions--and thats what makes the world go round.
Shamrock Nice write up. You have always appeared to me as a very compassionate person which this world need much more of.
I can't see speaking out for or against a cause as a courageous act personally. If that was the case
protestors would be the most courageous people on the planet--and they sure would not get my vote.
I will also say in your defence there are a lot of situations where some brass ,not all, send soilders in combat situations liking taking a hill or position only to give it up once taken, and that takes very little courage on the brass's part but lots of courage and lives on soilders part.
So if one is to error on judgement or opinion I would side with you--better to error on non-violent side. However if necessary there are times things have to be taken that far--the problem that arises is we usually do not know till years afterward if it was worth it or not. I think Iraq will be judged by what roads the Iraq's take in the aftermath.
protestors would be the most courageous people on the planet--and they sure would not get my vote.
I will also say in your defence there are a lot of situations where some brass ,not all, send soilders in combat situations liking taking a hill or position only to give it up once taken, and that takes very little courage on the brass's part but lots of courage and lives on soilders part.
So if one is to error on judgement or opinion I would side with you--better to error on non-violent side. However if necessary there are times things have to be taken that far--the problem that arises is we usually do not know till years afterward if it was worth it or not. I think Iraq will be judged by what roads the Iraq's take in the aftermath.
DTB you know the system. You only get them if recommend to do so. I mean you just don't stand on a hill and say wheres my metal. So of ofcourse he earned them or he would not have them. And neither would you.
As for vets wanting to be at his side. If there still friends after all these years why not. And because he did serve good for him. At least he has those who wish to do that. I cant help it Bush took another route and no one remembers serving with him. At least the last 8 months. And I truly don't care. When he came to our town at your's and mind expenses they bused in 120 troops from a base 50 miles away. When asked why they were there. Some said it was the assignment for the day. If true thats very wrong.
Chan it was afair question because I didn't know they never changed the date from first ones given out. You see Chan many who don't read about Nam don't understand to call it a war from 63 to 73 is wrong. We had almost 500 in country already in 59. And more then that in 60. True the real build up started after Johnson took over.
I dont think Kennedy would have ever did the same as Johnson did. But things sure went to hell after his death and I blame the idiot Johnson for most of it. And Tricky Dick for some to.
As for vets wanting to be at his side. If there still friends after all these years why not. And because he did serve good for him. At least he has those who wish to do that. I cant help it Bush took another route and no one remembers serving with him. At least the last 8 months. And I truly don't care. When he came to our town at your's and mind expenses they bused in 120 troops from a base 50 miles away. When asked why they were there. Some said it was the assignment for the day. If true thats very wrong.
Chan it was afair question because I didn't know they never changed the date from first ones given out. You see Chan many who don't read about Nam don't understand to call it a war from 63 to 73 is wrong. We had almost 500 in country already in 59. And more then that in 60. True the real build up started after Johnson took over.
I dont think Kennedy would have ever did the same as Johnson did. But things sure went to hell after his death and I blame the idiot Johnson for most of it. And Tricky Dick for some to.
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Good point djv. Too bad Kerry didn't feel the same way about medals he earned- Remember he symbolically threw "his" medals over the White House fence?
Bush maybe took another route, but he still served. I'll bet he could have even gotten out of that too if he wanted. DTB you know the system...and so does Bush.
As far as troops being bussed in- The President is the Commander in Chief. From Clinton's BLOW JOB...heh,heh, j/k from Clinton's hair cut on the runway to Bush's audience. "You know the system."
Bush maybe took another route, but he still served. I'll bet he could have even gotten out of that too if he wanted. DTB you know the system...and so does Bush.
As far as troops being bussed in- The President is the Commander in Chief. From Clinton's BLOW JOB...heh,heh, j/k from Clinton's hair cut on the runway to Bush's audience. "You know the system."
"So of ofcourse he earned them or he would not have them. And neither would you. "
BULLSHIT
He went in and personally requested Purple Heart for injury himself.
The general way non coms get them them is when they are sent to aid stations or hospitals to be treated for wounds.
-and lets look at his other awards bronze star and silver star. You have few people on boat.Commander Kerry is in charge of promotions of his few crew--crew nominates him for award. Get the picture!!!!!!!!!!!
So anyone who would say he earned them because he got them is either blind or totally clueless of the system.
I know your memory is excellent and sure you remember link about his efforts to get his men reassigned after he cut and ran after 4 months.
You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.
Soilders are in there to get home and could care less what they receive unless they are career soilders. I can tell you most or probably not aware of dates and sometimes events in for which their awards were received as for many it could have occurred on many occasions.
Case in point if a troop walked into an aid station with small piece of metal in one hand and scratch on other arm and demanded purple heart they would laugh in his face and tell him to get a life. If officer walked in and demanded same they would have no recourse but to write up papers the way he told it--then laugh their ass off after he left.
BULLSHIT
He went in and personally requested Purple Heart for injury himself.
The general way non coms get them them is when they are sent to aid stations or hospitals to be treated for wounds.
-and lets look at his other awards bronze star and silver star. You have few people on boat.Commander Kerry is in charge of promotions of his few crew--crew nominates him for award. Get the picture!!!!!!!!!!!
So anyone who would say he earned them because he got them is either blind or totally clueless of the system.
I know your memory is excellent and sure you remember link about his efforts to get his men reassigned after he cut and ran after 4 months.
You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.
Soilders are in there to get home and could care less what they receive unless they are career soilders. I can tell you most or probably not aware of dates and sometimes events in for which their awards were received as for many it could have occurred on many occasions.
Case in point if a troop walked into an aid station with small piece of metal in one hand and scratch on other arm and demanded purple heart they would laugh in his face and tell him to get a life. If officer walked in and demanded same they would have no recourse but to write up papers the way he told it--then laugh their ass off after he left.
DTB Sounds Political. You know you just don't ask for these and get them. Don't tarnish many men with this type of reasoning. You just belittle yourself.
"DTB Sounds Political. You know you just don't ask for these and get them."
"But Kerry met with his immediate superior officer, Lt.Cmdr. Grant Hibbard, the next morning and requested a Purple Heart for his wound. Hibbard recalls that Kerry had a "minor scratch" on his arm and was holding in his hand what appeared to be a fragment of a U.S. M-79 grenade, the shrapnel that had caused the wound. "They didn't receive enemy fire," Hibbard tells Insight. Since this was an essential requirement for the award, the commander rejected Kerry's request. Hibbard does not remember that Kerry received medical attention of any kind and confirms that no one else on the mission suffered any injuries."
I stand by what I said
quote from
http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/04/27/Politics/Purple.Hearts.Three.And.Out-656749.shtml
"But Kerry met with his immediate superior officer, Lt.Cmdr. Grant Hibbard, the next morning and requested a Purple Heart for his wound. Hibbard recalls that Kerry had a "minor scratch" on his arm and was holding in his hand what appeared to be a fragment of a U.S. M-79 grenade, the shrapnel that had caused the wound. "They didn't receive enemy fire," Hibbard tells Insight. Since this was an essential requirement for the award, the commander rejected Kerry's request. Hibbard does not remember that Kerry received medical attention of any kind and confirms that no one else on the mission suffered any injuries."
I stand by what I said
quote from
http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/04/27/Politics/Purple.Hearts.Three.And.Out-656749.shtml
Sound like one guys idea of what happen and others with different idea. I mean he had one already what the hell would you be asking for another. I hear this fellow is not fond of Kerry so I guess you need to read between the lines. At least I would. So much hate unreal.
