Shame on u bush

Kdogg21

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Dear Mr. Bush,

I am so confused. Where exactly do you stand on the issue of Iraq? You, your Dad, Rummy, Condi, Colin, and Wolfie -- you have all changed your minds so many times, I am out of breath just trying to keep up with you!

Which of these 10 positions that you, your family and your cabinet have taken over the years represents your CURRENT thinking:

1983-88: WE LOVE SADDAM. On December 19, 1983, Donald Rumsfeld was sent by your dad and Mr. Reagan to go and have a friendly meeting with Saddam Hussein, the dictator of Iraq. Rummy looked so happy in the picture. Just twelve days after this visit, Saddam gassed thousands of Iranian troops. Your dad and Rummy seemed pretty happy with the results because ?The Donald R.? went back to have another chummy hang-out with Saddam?s right-hand man, Tariq Aziz, just four months later. All of this resulted in the U.S. providing credits and loans to Iraq that enabled Saddam to buy billions of dollars worth of weapons and chemical agents. The Washington Post reported that your dad and Reagan let it be known to their Arab allies that the Reagan/Bush administration wanted Iraq to win its war with Iran and anyone who helped Saddam accomplish this was a friend of ours.

1990: WE HATE SADDAM. In 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait, your dad and his defense secretary, Dick Cheney, decided they didn't like Saddam anymore so they attacked Iraq and returned Kuwait to its rightful dictators.

1991: WE WANT SADDAM TO LIVE. After the war, your dad and Cheney and Colin Powell told the Shiites to rise up against Saddam and we would support them. So they rose up. But then we changed our minds. When the Shiites rose up against Saddam, the Bush inner circle changed its mind and decided NOT to help the Shiites. Thus, they were massacred by Saddam.

1998: WE WANT SADDAM TO DIE. In 1998, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and others, as part of the Project for the New American Century, wrote an open letter to President Clinton insisting he invade and topple Saddam Hussein.

2000: WE DON'T BELIEVE IN WAR AND NATION BUILDING. Just three years later, during your debate with Al Gore in the 2000 election, when asked by the moderator Jim Lehrer where you stood when it came to using force for regime change, you turned out to be a downright pacifist:


?I--I would take the use of force very seriously. I would be guarded in my approach. I don't think we can be all things to all people in the world. I think we've got to be very careful when we commit our troops. The vice president [Al Gore] and I have a disagreement about the use of troops. He believes in nation building. I--I would be very careful about using our troops as nation builders. I believe the role of the military is to fight and win war and, therefore, prevent war from happening in the first place. And so I take my--I take my--my responsibility seriously.? --October 3, 2000

2001 (early): WE DON'T BELIEVE SADDAM IS A THREAT. When you took office in 2001, you sent your Secretary of State, Colin Powell, and your National Security Advisor, Condoleezza Rice, in front of the cameras to assure the American people they need not worry about Saddam Hussein. Here is what they said:


Powell: ?We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they have directed that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was 10 years ago when we began it. And frankly, they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors.? --February 24, 2001


Rice: ?But in terms of Saddam Hussein being there, let's remember that his country is divided, in effect. He does not control the northern part of his country. We are able to keep arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt.? --July 29, 2001

2001 (late): WE BELIEVE SADDAM IS GOING TO KILL US! Just a few months later, in the hours and days after the 9/11 tragedy, you had no interest in going after Osama bin Laden. You wanted only to bomb Iraq and kill Saddam and you then told all of America we were under imminent threat because weapons of mass destruction were coming our way. You led the American people to believe that Saddam had something to do with Osama and 9/11. Without the UN's sanction, you broke international law and invaded Iraq.

2003: WE DON?T BELIEVE SADDAM IS GOING TO KILL US. After no WMDs were found, you changed your mind about why you said we needed to invade, coming up with a brand new after-the-fact reason -- we started this war so we could have regime change, liberate Iraq and give the Iraqis democracy!

2003: ?MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!? Yes, everyone saw you say it -- in costume, no less!

2004: OOPS. MISSION NOT ACCOMPLISHED! Now you call the Iraq invasion a "catastrophic success." That's what you called it this month. Over a thousand U.S. soldiers have died, Iraq is in a state of total chaos where no one is safe, and you have no clue how to get us out of there.

Mr. Bush, please tell us -- when will you change your mind again?

I know you hate the words "flip" and "flop," so I won't use them both on you. In fact, I'll use just one: Flop. That is what you are. A huge, colossal flop. The war is a flop, your advisors and the "intelligence" they gave you is a flop, and now we are all a flop to the rest of the world. Flop. Flop. Flop.

And you have the audacity to criticize John Kerry with what you call the "many positions" he has taken on Iraq. By my count, he has taken only one: He believed you. That was his position. You told him and the rest of congress that Saddam had WMDs. So he -- and the vast majority of Americans, even those who didn't vote for you -- believed you. You see, Americans, like John Kerry, want to live in a country where they can believe their president.

That was the one, single position John Kerry took. He didn't support the war, he supported YOU. And YOU let him and this great country down. And that is why tens of millions can't wait to get to the polls on Election Day -- to remove a major, catastrophic flop from our dear, beloved White House -- to stop all the flipping you and your men have done, flipping us and the rest of the world off.

We can't take another minute of it.

Yours,

Michael Moore
mmflint@aol.com
www.michaelmoore.com
 

spibble spab

NEOCON
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Sounds like you need a lesson on war tactics.
It would take me too long to pick apart each and
every one of your allegations and ramblings.
so i'll put the ball in your court and you can
pick which one you would like me to clarify for you.

Micheal Moores main tactic: Lie by omission, get cash for it
 

spibble spab

NEOCON
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:thumb: BTW. can we PULEEESE not cut and paste other ppls
messages. These are not your words, son.
I can cut and paste shit from the internet till my
balls squeal too, but this is a DISCUSSION FORUM
not a bathroom wall.

for a good time, call spibby
 

ferdville

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If I want to read Michael Moore I will go to Michael Moore's American-hating and bashing website. But thanks for conveying his thoughts to those of us that didn't already know where he stood. The absolute idiocy of these statements are beyond belief. Do YOU really care what Bush Sr. did...and if you do....tell me what it has to do with W. Do you think that W is just doing the bidding of his father and those involved in Sr's administration? I could go on and on but I have to watch the Angel game. I will be happy to discuss the issues with Moore, but will await some original thought from you in language that is not rife with profanity. I know, it is going to be a long wait.
 

CHARLESMANSON

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KDogg....
Spibble Spab has offered to school you on ANY of those lame statements that you posted. Why won't you pick out a couple that you like best and lets iron them out!

If not, anyway you can answer ferdvilles ?????
 

ferdville

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Wow - another KDogg(Sir Cut'n'Paste) cut and paste special. Maybe I will just snag articles off the internet and cut and paste them myself. It would take less time to do that than actually type it. Better yet, I wouldn't have to actually create an original thought of my own. Sounds like a great time saver to me. I wonder what he does with all the spare time that results?
 

MrChristo

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Nov 11, 2001
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OK...So ignoring that it is indeed a cut and paste....
(Which does does lead an interesting point in itself!...I mean, you put an 'opinion' here and it gets attacked as being 'stupid', or 'you made that up, prove it!', or some other similar jibe....yet you paste an article and you get bashed for not having an opinion!!)
[Granted, that isn't an article, but more someone else's opinion!].....But anyway, I digress!!! :D.........

...Does no-one else here think that the underlying point of the puppet government is a valid one?
Like it or not, we (the west) have no-one to blame for this situation we find ourselves in, but ourselves!
50 years or medling, "fixing", more medling, support this guy (until he out-grows us), support that guy (until he disagrees with us)...etc....etc...and on and on.....

Look, we all know why the west wants to play a significant role on the area...No-one in their right mind can deny it's about the oil.
The US, Cananda, UK and Australia have less than 10 years forecast oil production at current outputs.
Iraq, UAE, Kuwait, Saudio Arabia, Iran and Lybia all have considerably more reserves......
...In fact of the top 8 projected countries with the most oil physcially remaining, 5 are in the middle eastern area.
It's projected the the US has ~92 billion barrels left, compared to ~740 billion barrels in the Middle East.

You don't think a stuttering idiot from Texas doesn't know this??...Come on, even I have to give Georgey a small amount of credit.

How do we fix the current situation? I don't know! (I'd probably get the hell out of there and let the entire region actually be in control of themselves for the first time in about 70 years!!...But then I'd be a weak-ass, pussy, mother-****er, wouldn't I? ;))
Hell, oil prices would probably go thru the roof (actually they wouldn't because these countries would still have to sell the oil, stock piling isn't really an option)....but given at this rate, most of the oil will be gone in about 150 years, maybe it's about time we started developing some other energy forms anyway.

I know what half the people here would do, and that's shoot every arab that moved and take over the whole region as the 51st state. Would solve a heap of problems, I'll give you that!

Problem is, does any [potential] western leader have any clue as to what they are doing?
Seems we are quite content to sit in Iraq, see what happens, until the next big thing blows up in our face.

Bottom line is that I don't see it as America bashing at all!...The way I see it is that the west has dug themselves an almighty hole, and it seems we are trying to get out of it the only way we know how....Kepp diggin' boys. ;)
 

CHARLESMANSON

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spibble spab said:
Sounds like you need a lesson on war tactics.
It would take me too long to pick apart each and
every one of your allegations and ramblings.
so i'll put the ball in your court and you can
pick which one you would like me to clarify for you.

Micheal Moores main tactic: Lie by omission, get cash for it

I would rather hear KDogg answer to spibble's challenge. :) ....yoohooo?? KDogg??? :)
 

MrChristo

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CHARLESMANSON said:
I would rather hear KDogg answer to spibble's challenge. :) ....yoohooo?? KDogg??? :)

Why? You're constantly calling out KDogg, yet you can't/won't reply to a perfectly legitimate, reasonable question yourself.

What's your take on the whole puppet government issue, Manson?
I'd actually like to hear something sensible spring from your lips, rather than 'calling people out' and dry humping Bush's leg.
 
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StevieD

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Looks like another Bush flip flop to me. If you post your opinion they ask you for proof, if you cut and paste they dismiss it by not liking your source. No one has refuted anything in post but a few attacked the messenger. Too bad they can't prove it wrong. But if they hear it is wrong on Murdoch controlled media they begin to believe it is wrong. It is affairs in America when the media. all the medis, radio, tv, and newspapers are run by the same man who has a death grip on the President.
 

ferdville

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If you cut and paste, give credit to the person who wrote it - don't pass it off as something you yourself wrote. This is junior high school etiquette. The fact that someone chooses to cut and paste without giving credit to the writer is forbid even at the elementary school level. Quit trying to support someone who cannot answer for themselves.

And on a second point, please Mr. Christo, give me concrete examples of why this conflict is all about oil. It is easy to say but not too easy to back up. Again - a question I have asked multiple times and it is constantly ignored -
Give me examples of the United States using Iraqui oil for its own good.

If it is all about oil as is incessantly argued by many, please tell me when we have appropriated their oil for our own use.
 

MrChristo

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ferdville said:
If you cut and paste, give credit to the person who wrote it - don't pass it off as something you yourself wrote. This is junior high school etiquette. The fact that someone chooses to cut and paste without giving credit to the writer is forbid even at the elementary school level. Quit trying to support someone who cannot answer for themselves.

And on a second point, please Mr. Christo, give me concrete examples of why this conflict is all about oil. It is easy to say but not too easy to back up. Again - a question I have asked multiple times and it is constantly ignored -
Give me examples of the United States using Iraqui oil for its own good.

If it is all about oil as is incessantly argued by many, please tell me when we have appropriated their oil for our own use.

I'm sure you can see as easily as I can, ferdville, that KDogg's original post had
Yours,

Michael Moore
mmflint@aol.com
www.michaelmoore.com

at the bottom!!!...Hardly trying to pass it off as his own work! :shrug:

Using Iraqi oil? Of course there is no concrete evidence! Why would there be? Is there ANY concrete evidence of ANY reason we are in there? Can you give me CONCRETE evidence that there are WMD? No.
As I said in my original post, the US (the entire west!) is quickly running out of the stuff. Fact.
World supply was down in late 2003. Fact.
Why?...Because Iraq had their oil exports restricted. Now they're not...Hmmmm....Coincidence? Hey, maybe! :142lmao:
Let's turn the tables, ferdville....How about you tell me why we are there?

As for Manson........
 

ferdville

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Well, I promised not to come back but I will just to answer your question. That is a novel idea for most here.

"Of course there is no concrete evidence."
I interpret that as meaning that the reason there is no concrete evidence is because of skullduggery by the Bush administration. Your take would be even though there is no evidence, we are there to take Iraqu oil - it is a given. So even though there is no evidence, you choose to believe the contrary.

Now let me turn the tables on you. If this is your policy, call it the concrete evidence policy, why can I not state that there were indeed weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and Saddam was ready to use them. You would then say to me - but ferdville, there is NO EVIDENCE of WMD's in Iraq. There is NO EVIDENCE that Saddam was going to use those non-existant WMD's.

Now imagine that my reply was "Of course there is no evidence. It was hidden deep underground or moved to Syria." You would roll off your chair and accuse me of being an idiot that can't back up what I say with facts. I guess this is the epitome of trying to have it both ways; of trying to have your cake and eat it to; of demonstrating hypocrisy at its finest.

I know you haven't recuperated yet because someone here actually answered a question that was posed by another. So hold on to your hat, here comes answer number two.

You want me to tell you why we are in Iraq. Since I am not the Commander in Chief, I don't know for sure. But let me give you some reasons - even though I don't necessarily support those same reasons. First, it was assumed by everyone that Saddam did have WMD's and was prepared to use them. Kerry agreed; Ted Kennedy agreed; the list goes on. Secondly, we wanted to rid the region of an oppressive dictator that with the help of his sons was killing, raping, stealing, and torturing the citizens at will. Thirdly, it was thought that there was a link between Iraq and Bin Laden and/or Iraq and Al Queda. Fourth, it was a humanitary issue. Fifth, and the most ill conceived thought of all, was our idea to install a democracy in Iraq and allow the citizens to rule their own country. This, of course, was a ludicrous plan that was ridiculed by both Kosar and I immediately. There will not be a democracy in Iraq and most of the other portions of the Mid East in our life time.

That is five reasons and I could go on, but the Angels are winning and I have to go. Keep in mind that I don't necessarily support these points. Nevertheless, I believe those are 5 reasons why we went in to Iraq, like it or not.

What troubles me about Kerry is his apparent lack of specificity. It seems as though his entire mantra is "Anything you can do, I can do better." I am sure that you will note that going in to a country for purely humanitarian reasons does not justify our presence in Iraq. If so, why did Kerry say that he would go in to the Sudan to help the people there? For humanitarian reasons???????

I hope I have answered your questions in a satisfactory manner. I only wish some other people out there would answer some of the questions that I have posed.

Don't bother to reply because I honestly want to get out of this poison forum so that I can maintain a positive attitude. But I won't let someone go after me without a response.

So Christo, you said "how about you tell me why we are there?" I did. Now how about telling me how exactly we are stealing the Iraqui oil? Nevermind, I'd just have to return and do this all over again. Leave me in peace.
 
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MrChristo

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ferdville said:
I know you haven't recuperated yet because someone here actually answered a question that was posed by another. So hold on to your hat, here comes answer number two.

.

:142lmao: :142lmao: I like that!

Sorry, I know you told me not to reply, but I'm not about to start anything. :toast:

I hope I have answered your questions in a satisfactory manner. I only wish some other people out there would answer some of the questions that I have posed.

And, hey....Do I hear this!! There is absolutely nothing worse in this place than articulating a perfectly logical responce to a question/statement...or posing a perfectly reasonable/logical rebuttal question, have it ignored, only to see the exact same thing you were questioning pop up in another thread 5 minutes later!!

I've said all along that Kerry is not an issue for me, don't know enough about him to comment.

Since I am not the Commander in Chief, I don't know for sure.

And that's the key point, I guess. NONE of us KNOW the exact reasons. We can all summise, guess, assume...whatever...but fact is we might never KNOW.
The only thing I'll say on that is that I'm convinced that the Commander in Chief doesn't know either!

Anyway....Leave you in peace I will. Angel's up 8-0. (And I assume this is a good thing!)
Good Luck.
 

ferdville

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Thanks -it has been fun and I know everybody here is probably a good guy that I would enjoy a drink with - well, I don't want to join Charles any time soon! I will return after the elections or just before if anything of drastic proportion occurs. I really think that the reason there are so many arguments here is the fact that it is hard to be sold on either of these two. I have no disrespect at all for anyone who votes for Kerry. Same for Bush. I can easily see why people would think Bush should be dumped. I'd like to see someone else there too - just not Kerry at this moment. I may yet go for Kerry if he starts digging deep into his plans if elected. We need a 3 party system where the 3rd party has a little clout. I just get myself so worked up over this that I need a rest. I think my confusion and inability to find a guy that I trust to run thiis country has temporarily gotten the best of me! Peace to all and to all a good night. I hope everybody wins all their bets. :sadwave:
 

MrChristo

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Agree 100% ferdville.

There are definately guys on herre that I would LOVE to have a drink and spend some time with....guys who are pretty much polar opposites to my way of thinking.
In a way I respect these guys all the more for putting their arguments forward....I mean obviously we discuss some pretty emotive subjects here (esp. leading upto an election!!)...and sometimes things do get heated/out of hand....but hey, I guess that's why we are discussing it on a 'net forum and not belting our 'real' mates every couple of days!! :lol: :lol:

Look, from a totally independant viewpoint, I don't envy you guys at all with the whole election thing!! God, how I think Bush is a moron, but from the limited things I have seen of Kerry, he doesn't seem alot better (as you say!).

I guess the bottom line is that we pretty much all want the same thing....peace and stability....we just have different viewpoints of how to go about it!

(And, yes, DTB...I know it will never happen! ;))

ok....Not doing anything here to enhance my reputation as a muscle bound, fearsome, gun-toting warrior here!!....So I might just bow out myself! :D

Echo good luck to all.....and the Jags are for real ;)
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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:) Yep and pretty intersting points from both sides and for the most part quite civil. Tough section to not lose ones cool in--but all and all I think it shows that many from both sides are making efforts to seek the truth--and thats what it's all about.
 
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