We are the problem

kosar

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We Are the Problem
December 11th, 2004

Every time Iraqi soldiers and policemen boogie away from combat, the standard answer that comes out of the U.S. government is that they need to be "trained up" better.

That's nonsense. Training teaches technique; it does not teach the will to fight. Given the history of Iraq and its culture, nobody can say that the Iraqis are cowards. In fact, in the Middle East, they have a reputation for fierceness.

Therefore, if it's not lack of training and if it's not cowardice, then there must be another reason so many Iraqis, while desperate for a paycheck, nevertheless decide in moments of conflict that it is not in their interest to fight.

I believe the reason is that most of them do not believe that the U.S. occupation is going to end, and in Iraq it is certainly not in the rational self-interest to be seen as someone who fights to maintain the American occupation.

To say that occupation ended when we transferred sovereignty to a government we selected and appointed is to play word games. Anybody who believes the interim government is actually independent and could do anything without our permission is living in a dream world.

To hint that we will leave after the January elections ? assuming they take place ? is another deception. Only recently, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld speculated that U.S. forces would remain in Iraq for at least four years. That's four years after the election. And in my opinion, the U.S. government plans to maintain a military presence in Iraq indefinitely.

Therefore, in the minds of many Iraqis, if you fight with the Americans, you are not fighting for Iraq, but for American occupation. I don't believe many Iraqis feel that maintaining our presence in their country is worth the risk of their lives and possibly those of their families.

The answer, of course, is to give the Iraqi people a hard and firm time and date when we will leave their country. If the Iraqis believed that, say, in March 2005, the last American soldier would leave the country, then I think we would see Iraqis not only volunteering in droves but going after the insurgents like a hungry bear after honey. The Iraqis know how to fight. They don't need training so much as they need equipment and an incentive to use it.

Our policy toward Iraq has been constructed entirely out of deceptions. Deceptions about weapons of mass destruction, deceptions about the danger an elderly dictator represented to the world, deceptions about his link with al-Qaida and deceptions about our own intentions.

If the government that's elected in January cannot tell us to get out of the country, then it will not be an independent government of a sovereign nation. It will be a government of stooges. Naturally the plan is for the new government to sign an agreement "asking" us to stay. That will be the same as the agreements Eastern European countries signed with the Soviet Union "asking" the Red Army to stay.

So just as handing over titular sovereignty didn't stop the insurgency, having elections will not stop it either if the people perceive the new government to be made up of quislings beholden to the United States. So long as we maintain a military presence in Iraq, there will be an insurgency. In the long run, we will be forced out. It's just a question of how many people will die before that result is achieved.

President Bush ? or at least his speechwriter ? is a master of sophistry. At first, if you disagreed with his Iraqi plan, you were unpatriotic. Now, if you disagree, you are a racist who doesn't believe Arabs can have a democracy. Well, I for one have never said that. I have said they might not choose to have a democracy, which involves a great deal more than having an election. One thing required is for the losers not to shoot the winners.

But never mind; no matter how disastrous the situation becomes, President Bush will declare it a great triumph. After all, he sees a warlord-ruled, heroin-supplying Afghanistan as a great triumph of democracy even though the elected president is holed up in a fortified palace surrounded by foreign guards.
 

dr. freeze

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Yes, we are the problem. Most Americans love hearing this schpeel over and over again.

Us hardworking Americans trying to take care of the world and eliminate terrorism are the true problem.

Shame on us.

Hopefully we apologize to the rest of the world soon.

Great post Mr. Kosar. You are a true patriot.

God Bless America
 

kosar

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Is there anything in particular that you disagree with in that article, Freeze?

Just keep goose-stepping along singing the praises of the incompetent leadership. I know it pains you to think critically, but give it a shot.
 

dr. freeze

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how about the first paragraph where it says "every time"

the second paragraph where it says "thats nonsense"

1. They dont say that every time.

2. It is not nonsense that they need to be trained better. You are a fool if you dont think that better training wont help.
 

dr. freeze

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"anybody who believes that the interim government blah blah blah"

maybe this esteemed author fails to realize that right now we are worried about how the new gov't will be a little too friendly with Iran
 

dr. freeze

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To hint that we will leave after the January elections ? assuming they take place ? is another deception. Only recently, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld speculated that U.S. forces would remain in Iraq for at least four years. That's four years after the election. And in my opinion, the U.S. government plans to maintain a military presence in Iraq indefinitely.

*** who in the hell thinks we are going to leave after the elections? and who has insinuated as such?

and in this person's "opinion" the us government plans to maintain a military presence in Iraq indefinitely

Why the heck does this person think of this in a negative light? Does he/she similarly think that we shouldn't have had an occupation in Germany since the end of WWII?

What better place to have a military base than in Iraq? assuming its not some tent and actually will have some infrastructure -- good grief this person's ignorance is deafening
 

dr. freeze

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Therefore, in the minds of many Iraqis, if you fight with the Americans, you are not fighting for Iraq, but for American occupation. I don't believe many Iraqis feel that maintaining our presence in their country is worth the risk of their lives and possibly those of their families.


Again, these opinions and use of the words "i dont believe many" and "not many Iraqi's" are baseless....even if they are true, there is no evidence to support this garbage...

and how about wording it this way "I don't believe many Iraqi's are thankful for the Americans to help stabilize their country. Most would not be willing to fight for freedom and opportunity to succeed and raise their standard of living. Most Iraqi's would not want, in my opinion, a different way of life than what they are accustomed -- random beatings and other uncivilized atrocities are a engrained in them."

How is that for word-play? This is garbage journalism.....I am done dissecting it for now
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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1st thing that got my curiousity in when "unknown author" says

"I believe the reason" and then rambles on about fierce warriors but disregards fact that 80% of iraq population has allowed itself to be exploited tortured and exterminated for decades under the 20% Sunni and Saddam rule.
------and it goes downhill from there.
 
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kosar

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It's Charley Reese, a conservative leaning columnist until this Iraq debacle came around.

It gets tiring hearing you and Freeze talk about and/or imply how the 'good' Iraqis or the 'good' Muslims should revolt. You would do the same damn thing if you were in their shoes. Nothing.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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"It gets tiring hearing you and Freeze talk about and/or imply how the 'good' Iraqis or the 'good' Muslims should revolt. You would do the same damn thing if you were in their shoes. Nothing."

The reference that I would do nothing if in their shoes is opinion--- The truth is that I and others including yourself put their lives on the line for a lot less--is fact!

other facts are as noted in other threads the shites have 100,000+ of their own militia they said they would make available for voting and we've been having to phyisically keep the Kurds out of this.--all to avoid cival war--which I concur has already started.
I propose we sit back and let it happen and let the Shites and Kurds get their justice. Then rebuild as there will be fewer cities that won't have enough population to rebuild.
Then we could have Kurds rule north--Shites the south and maybe call the middle Shiturds :)
 

djv

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Did Rummy head really say we need to stay another 4 years. Is that man sick or what. Why the hell do we have to be there more then a year. Give-em there country back. So many here throw the American dream issue around. There are many dreams and there not all ours. And to be free is. So let them have there freedom. We don't have anymore right to stay there then we want some one to occupy our country.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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"We don't have anymore right to stay there then we want some one to occupy our country"

I asume you would consider the same in Africa-Afgan-South Korea ect???????

Hmmm If not I have to assume it is just a matter of politics--

Maybe we should take same route as last administration in Beirut and Somolia????

Bush Sr breaking his promise and 2 events above are what gave terrorist the inkling America don't have the guts and fortitude to stick it out----and for some they are correct.
 

djv

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I don't believe we invaded and of those countries you mention.
We need to stay in Iraq more then a year. Why? Were starting to here same B S reasons that kept us in Nam way to long.
 

gardenweasel

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"the bunker"
i`d say calling reese "conservative leaning" is a bit of a stretch...maybe he used to be.......right now,he`s all over the map....and leans way left,if anything....

the guy likes george soros.....he wanted dean for president.......

and identifies ideologically with the michael moore`s and linda ronstadt`s of the world....

he may like smaller gov`t....o.k...he`s extremely anti-war....o.k.

that`s just fine.....but a guy that likes soros,moore, dean et al....and just hates george bush..and is anti-military....is for gay marriage....

not to disparage the guy...i like a guy that doesn`t fall lockstep into a political philosophy...he`s an independent thinker.....i could give a damn is gays get married myself....

i like that....

don`t know whether to characterizing the guy as "conservative leaning" is a fair assessment...
 
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THE KOD

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kosar said:
We Are the Problem
December 11th, 2004

Every time Iraqi soldiers and policemen boogie away from combat, the standard answer that comes out of the U.S. government is that they need to be "trained up" better.

That's nonsense. Training teaches technique; it does not teach the will to fight. Given the history of Iraq and its culture, nobody can say that the Iraqis are cowards. In fact, in the Middle East, they have a reputation for fierceness.

Therefore, if it's not lack of training and if it's not cowardice, then there must be another reason so many Iraqis, while desperate for a paycheck, nevertheless decide in moments of conflict that it is not in their interest to fight.

I believe the reason is that most of them do not believe that the U.S. occupation is going to end, and in Iraq it is certainly not in the rational self-interest to be seen as someone who fights to maintain the American occupation.
[/B]
.......................................................................

I would disagree with him and offer this as a reason for the Iraqi army running.

What they are afraid of is if the US does pull out. Then all hell is going to break loose. The terrorists will get into power by bombing them silly and starting their own army. The ones that are in the Iraqi army are going to prison or worse.

Face it. We will maintain a military presence there for at least 5. The price of democracy.
 

beertime

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Scott-Atlanta said:
.......................................................................

I would disagree with him and offer this as a reason for the Iraqi army running.

What they are afraid of is if the US does pull out. Then all hell is going to break loose. The terrorists will get into power by bombing them silly and starting their own army. The ones that are in the Iraqi army are going to prison or worse.

Face it. We will maintain a military presence there for at least 5. The price of democracy.



yep .

and we will never leave iraq or kuwait in our lifetime because it IS IN OUR BEST INTEREST to be in the neighborhood permanantly.

these repressed countries will live a better quality of life over time and come to appreciate being involved in the "modern world".

oh and i forgot if the next 911 has suitcase nukes and manhatten is uninhabitable for 200 years the wacks on the left will say we didnt do enough..

grow up and face the facts that nuke tech will spread.

the state dept has.

cut the pc crap and look at the big picture.
 

djv

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Big Picture of what? Not spending enough money on home land security. Leaving our borders wide open. Instead we found it more important to capture Saddam. Who we had under control.
 

kosar

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GW,

Until this president, and this war, almost all (80% maybe?) of Reeses columns have been what might be considered 'conservative leaning.'
 
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