Is it time to leave Iraq

[DOGS THAT BARK]

I'll defend something if I think worth my time or deserves it--but when you have people discussing context of nam vs iraq that never been to either or probable neven in military--and quoting unknown #'s like 75% not voting--or admiring the french--
I have to demote them to non responsive mode till they can substantiate something with just a small tad of fact thrown in.

 

[Englishman]

It's not time to leave Iraq until the job is completed. Could be many years. Just like 1945 Japan.

Tough days ahead, great decades ahead.

The correct historical analogy is Japan, not Vietnam.

 

[worm44]

Englishman--you spout your froth like you know what you are talking about-I still dont know why your board name is Englishman when your Avatar is a US flag--I am sure you are probably a US citizen-(I assume) but like a lot of "Englishmen" you think occupying another counrtry for long periods of time is alright-it must be in the genes.....(Engish in the new world) (English in N.Ireland) (English in India) etc--you make me sick....

 

[Englishman]

Well, occupying another country for long periods of time mioght well be appropriate, depending on the situation.

Would you say occupying Japan for 10 years was wrong?

Rational debate is the way forward here brother, no need to be so hostile, it's only a message board.

 

[worm44]

Who said I was being hostile?--I am laughing at you right now-not angry...I am just lumping you in with your ancestors (which you are obviously same-minded)...That like a lot of English you think occupation is OK...that means you a pathetic, opportunist-England sought to occupy and rule over many different regions and be damned the price of life to its ORIGINAL inhabitants, you know like our country- the Irish people-people from India and Argentina etc.......I suggest you don't flaunt your heritage so much it is gravely embarrassing for you........

 

[kosar]

It's not time to leave Iraq until the job is completed. Could be many years. Just like 1945 Japan.

Tough days ahead, great decades ahead.

The correct historical analogy is Japan, not Vietnam.

Japan? Are you kidding me? Let's see, how many men were lost reconstructing Japan? Oh, zero?

The correct historical analogy is Afghanistan/USSR.

 

[worm44]

Thank you Kosar---

 

[worm44]

Thank you Kosar---

 

[Englishman]

Kosar:

I hope you are not right about that. In his book, Gorbachev said that the Afghanistan disaster really began the chain of events at the top that led to the end of the USSR. I'm not really sure there is a parallell with Iraq. I hope to God not, anyway.

The reconstruction of Japan cost many thousands of US soldiers lives. There was we would call "terrorist" events going on for many years after the Japanese surrender with US soldiers in the occupying force being killed in sneak attacks, often by civilians.

 

[I LOVE WR]

BOTTOMLINE IS DO YOU GUYS NOT MIND BEING LIED TO BY YOUR PRESIDENT?

DO YOU CARE THAT BRAVE US SOLDIERS AND INNOCENT IRAQIS ARE BEING KILLED FOR OIL AND ISRAEL?

WORM READ SOME BOOKS ON BRITISH HISTORY BEFORE YOU SPEW. I KNOW WHAT YOU WERE TRYING TO SAY BUT RELAX BEFORE TYPING NEXT TIME. DONT INSULT ONE OF THE FEW AMERICAN ALLIES THAT HAVE BACKED THE US.

ALL I KNOW IS I PRAY THE UNITED STATES STARTS GOING ON THE GOOD ROAD AGAIN BECAUSE ITS BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE THAT HAPPENED.

TELL YOUR GOVERNMENT TO CLEAN UP THE US BEFORE WASTING MONEY IN IRAQ. AT LEAST ATTACKING IRAN WOULD HAVE MADE SOME SENSE.

GOOD LUCK GUYS

 

[djv]

Ah our Pres is starting to sound like he's growing a brain. Be careful what you say. When he starts thinking he made mistakes you wonder what his next big one will be. Like S S he want's us all to think it's going down fast. It's good to 2041. Not a priority compared to other real needs now. Japan is brought up. Differant program. Rememebr they hit us first. I cant find where Iraq ever did sneak attack on us.

 

[smurphy]

It's not time to leave Iraq until the job is completed. Could be many years.

I agree. I hate this war, I hated from the very beginning, I but agree with this view at this point.

Good points kosar and djv. Any comparisons of WW2 with Iraq just make no sense. Vietnam is closer, but it's still probably very different. Maybe Iraq will become it's own reference point. One day people will say "We don't want it to be another Iraq" or "We need to do this like we did with Iraq".

 

[Englishman]

djv:

It's interesting you bring up Social Security: didn't Clinton spend the whole of 1998 telling us it was in desperate trouble, and didn't Gore run in 2000 on creating a "lockbox" for SS? It seems like they thought "something had to be done".

This is a classic issue that you can spin any way you want using any set of assumptions you please for the numbers going forward. Just another political football for which they are all to blame.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

" Like S S he want's us all to think it's going down fast. It's good to 2041. Not a priority compared to other real needs now"

I give him credit for tackling an unpopular decision. Can you pass the buck forever---Who and when should fix start.

Is obvious what passing the buck did on terrorism.

I'd would like to see how they plan this fix though.Fairest way I can see is raising limits on payroll from current $90,000 to $200,000. This would be one area I would agree with tax increase. Idea of individual accounts would be great for younger but I'm probaly right at age that will get hit hardest--but I'm for it if they can come up with feasible way to do it.

So far they have just come up with the meat--curious to see the potatoes. The sooner the fix the the less impact of the cure.

 

[djv]

Running out of money to run education and maintain our schools. Build more prisons instead of educate and try to prevent more crime. Sooner or later you reach point of no return. Reduece deficit before our money becomes worth less. Stop jobs form leaveing. And on and on. All needs right now. S/S Was fixed 8 years ago. Yes it would have been in trouble by 2020 if no action was taken. Before that Reagan did a fix. We have problem with terror and our borders. Our air we breath. S S, It just is nothing to get our shorts on fire about right now. Fix what needs help right now. And boy thats a big list. Yes Gore had right idea. But S S in a lock box and leave it locked to keep politicians from stealing from it.

 

[StevieD]

But there is money to be made! Brokerage Houses will see a ton of new money. More for the rich! That is why he can't keep his hands off it.

 

[Chanman]

Vietnam Facts vs Fiction

It's time the American people learn that the United States military did not lose the War, and that a surprisingly high number of people who claim to have served there, in fact, DID NOT.

As Americans support the men and women involved in the War on Terrorism, the mainstream media are once again working tirelessly to undermine their efforts and force a psychological loss or stalemate for the United States. We cannot stand by and let the media do to today's warriors what they did 35 years ago.

Below are some assembled some facts most will find interesting. It isn't a long read,! but it will....I guarantee....teach you some things you did not know about the Vietnam War and those who served, fought, or died there.

Vietnam War Facts:
Facts, Statistics, Fake Warrior Numbers, and Myths Dispelled

9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the official Vietnam era from August 5, 1964 to May 7, 1975.

2,709,918 Americans served in uniform in Vietnam

Vietnam Veterans represented 9.7% of their generation.

240 men were awarded the Medal of Honor during the Vietnam War

The first man to die in Vietnam was James Davis, in 1958. He was with the 509th Radio Research Station. Davis Station in Saigon was named for him.

58,148 were killed in Vietnam

75,000 were severely disabled

23,214 were 100% disabled

5,! 283 lost limbs

1,081 sustained multiple amputations

Of those killed, 61% were younger than 21

11,465 of those killed were younger than 20 years old

Of those killed, 17,539 were married

Average age of men killed: 23.1 years

Five men killed in Vietnam were only 16 years old.

The oldest man killed was 62 years old.

As of January 15, 2 004, there are 1,875 Americans still unaccounted for from the Vietnam War

97% of Vietnam Veterans were honorably discharged

91% of Vietnam Veterans say they are glad they served

74% say they would serve again, even knowing the outcome

Vietnam veterans have a lower unemployment rate than the same non-vet age groups.

Vietnam veterans' personal income exceeds that of our non-veteran age group by more than 18 percent.

87% of Americans hold Vietnam Veterans in high esteem.

There is no difference in drug usage between Vietnam Veterans and non-Vietnam V! eterans of the same age group (Source: Veterans Administration Study)

Vietnam Veterans are less likely to be in prison - only one-half of one percent of Vietnam Veterans have been jailed for crimes.

85% of Vietnam Veterans made successful transitions to civilian life.

Interesting Census Stats and "Been There" Wanabees:

1,713,823 of those who served in Vietnam were still alive as of August, 1995 (census figures).
~ During that same Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country was: 9,492,958.~ As of the current Census taken during August, 2000, the surviving U.S. Vietnam Veteran population estimate is: 1,002,511. This is hard to elieve, losing nearly 711,000 between '95 and '00. That's 390 per day. During this Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country is: 13,853,027. By this census, FOUR OUT OF FIVE WHO CLAIM TO BE Vietnam vets are not.
The Department of Defense Vietnam War Service Index officially provided by The War Library originally reported with errors that 2,709,918 U.S. military personnel as having served in-country. Corrections and confirmations to this errored index resulted in the addition of 358 U.S. military personnel confirmed to have served in Vietnam but not originally listed by the Department of
Defense. (All names are currently on file and accessible 24/7/365).

Isolated atrocities committed by American Soldiers produced torrents of outrage from anti-war critics and the news media while Communist atrocities were so common that they received hardly any media mention at all. The United States sought to minimize and prevent attacks on civilians while North Vietnam made attacks on civilians a centerpiece of its strategy. Americans who deliberately killed civilians received prison sentences while Communists who did so received commendations. From 1957 to 1973, the National Liberation Front assassinated 36,725 Vietnamese and abducted another 58,499. The death squads focused on leaders at the village level and on anyone who improved the lives of the peasants such as medical personnel, social workers, and school teachers.

 

[Chanman]

Common Myths Dispelled:

Myth: Common Belief is that most Vietnam veterans were drafted.

Fact: 2/3 of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers. 2/3 of the men who served in World War II were drafted. Approximately 70% of those killed in Vietnam were volunteers.

Myth: The media have reported that suicides among Vietnam veterans range from 50,000 to 100,000 - 6 to 11 times the non-Vietnam veteran population.

Fact: Mortality studies show that 9,000 is a better estimate. "The CDC Vietnam Experience Study Mortality Assessment showed that during the first 5 years after discharge, deaths from suicide were 1.7 times more likely among Vietnam veterans than non-Vietnam veterans. After that initial post-service period, Vietnam veterans were no more likely to die from suicide than non-Vietnam
veterans. In fact, after the 5-year post-service period, the rate of suicides is less in the Vietnam veterans' group.

Myth: Common belief is that a disproportionate number of blacks were killed in the Vietnam War.

Fact: 86% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasians, 12.5% were black, 1.2% were other races. Sociologists Charles C. Moskos and John Sibley Butler,in their recently published book "All That We Can Be," said they analyzed the claim that blacks were used like cannon fodder during Vietnam "and can report definitely that this charge is untrue. Black fatalities amounted to 12 percent of all Americans killed in Southeast Asia - a figure proportional to the number of blacks in the U.S. population at the time and slightl! y lower than the proportion of blacks in the Army at the close of the war."

Myth: Common belief is that the war was fought largely by the poor and uneducated.

Fact: Servicemen who went to Vietnam from well-to-do areas had a slightly elevated risk of dying because they were more likely to be pilots or infantry officers. Vietnam Veterans were the best educated forces our nation had ever sent into combat. 79% had a high school education or better.

Here are statistics from the Combat Area Casualty File (CACF) as of November 1993. The CACF is the basis for the Vietnam Veterans Memorial (The Wall): Average age of 58,148 killed in Vietnam was 23.11 years. (Although 58,169 names are in the Nov. 93 database, only 58,148 have both event date and birth date. Event date is used instead of declared dead date for some of those who
were listed as missing in action)

Deaths - Average Age
Total: 58,148 23.11 years
Enlisted: 50,274 22.37 years
Officers: 6,598 28.43 years
Warrants: 1,276 24.73 years
E1: 525 20.34 years
11B MOS: 18,465 22.55 years

Myth: The common belief is the average age of an infantryman fighting in Vietnam was 19.

Fact: Assuming KIAs accurately represented age groups serving in Vietnam, the average age of an infantryman (MOS 11B) serving in Vietnam to be 19 years old is a myth, it is actually 22. None of the enlisted grades have an average age of less than 20. The! average man who fought in World War II was 26 years of age.

Myth: The Common belief is that the domino theory was proved false.

Fact: The domino theory was accurate. The ASEAN (Association of Southeast Asian Nations) countries, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand stayed free of Communism because of the U.S. commitment to Vietnam. The Indonesians threw the Soviets out in 1966 because of America's commitment in Vietnam. Without that commitment, Communism would have swept all the way to the Malacca Straits that is south of Singapore and of great strategic
importance to the free world. If you ask people who live in these countries that won the war in Vietnam, they have a different opinion from the American news media. The Vietnam War was the turning point for Communism.

Myth: The common belief is that the fighting in Vietnam was not as intense as in World War II.

Fact: The average infantryman in the South Pacific during World War II saw about 40 days of combat in four years. The average infantryman in Vietnam saw about 240 days of combat in one year thanks to the mobility of the helicopter. One out of every 10 Americans who served in Vietnam was a casualty. 58,148 were killed and 304,000 wounded out of 2.7 million who served. Although the percent that died is similar to other wars, amputations or crippling wounds were 300 percent higher than in World War II ....75,000 Vietnam veterans are severely disabled. MEDEVAC helicopters flew nearly 500,000 missions. Over 900,000 patients were airlifted (nearly half were American). The average time lapse between wounding to hospitalization was less than one hour. As a result, less than one percent of all Americans wounded, who survived the first 24 hours, died. The helicopter provided unprecedented mobility. Without the helicopter it would have taken three times as many troops to secure t! he 800 mile border with Cambodia and Laos (the politicians thought the Geneva
Conventions of 1954 and the Geneva Accords or 1962 would secure the border).

Myth: Kim Phuc, the little nine year old Vietnamese girl running naked from the napalm strike near Trang Bang on 8 June 1972.....shown a million times on American television....was burned by Americans bombing Trang Bang.

Fact: No American had involvement in this incident near Trang Bang that burned Phan Thi Kim Phuc. The planes doing the bombing near the village were VNAF (Vietnam Air Force) and were being flown by Vietnamese pilots in support of South Vietnamese troops on the ground. The Vietnamese pilot who dropped the napalm in error is currently living in the United States Even the AP photographer, Nick Ut, who took the picture, was Vietnamese. The incident in the photo took place on the second day of a three day battle between the North Vietnamese Army (NVA) who occupied the village of Trang Ba! ng and the ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam) who were trying to force the NVA out of the
village. Recent reports in the news media that an American commander ordered the air strike that burned Kim Phuc are incorrect. There were no Americans involved in any capacity. "We (Americans) had nothing to do with controlling VNAF," according to Lieutenant General (Ret) James F. Hollingsworth, the Commanding General of TRAC at that time. Also, it has been incorrectly
reported that two of Kim Phuc's brothers were killed in this incident. They were Kim's cousins not her brothers.

Myth: The United States lost the war in Vietnam.

Fact: The American military was not defeated in Vietnam. The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. General Westmoreland quoting Douglas Pike, a professor at the University of California, Berkley a renowned expert on ! the Vietnam War). This included Tet 68, which was a major military defeat for
the VC and NVA.

 

[Chanman]

THE UNITED STATES DID NOT LOSE THE WAR IN VIETNAM, THE SOUTH VIETNAMESE DID.
Read on........

The fall of Saigon happened 30 April 1975, two years AFTER the American military left Vietnam. The last American troops departed in their entirety 29 March 1973. How could we lose a war we had already stopped fighting? We fought to an agreed stalemate. The peace settlement was signed in Paris on 27 January 1973. It called for release of all U.S. prisoners, withdrawal of U.S. forces,
limitation of both sides' forces inside South Vietnam and a commitment to peaceful reunification. The 140,000 evacuees in April 1975 during the fall of Saigon consisted almost entirely of civilians and Vietnamese military, NOT American military running for their lives. There were almost twice as many casualties in Southeast Asia (primarily Cambodia) the first! two years after the fall of Saigon in 1975 then there were during the ten years the U.S. was involved in
Vietnam. Thanks for the perceived loss and the countless assassinations and torture visited upon Vietnamese, Laotians, and Cambodians goes mainly to the American media and their undying support-by-misrepresentation of the anti-War movement in the United States.

As with much of the Vietnam War, the news media misreported and misinterpreted the 1968 Tet Offensive. It was reported as an overwhelming success for the Communist forces and a decided defeat for the U.S forces. Nothing could be further from the truth. Despite initial victories by the Communists forces, the Tet Offensive resulted in a major defeat of those forces. General Vo
Nguyen Giap, the designer of the Tet Offensive, is considered by some as ranking with Wellington, Grant, Lee and MacArthur as a great commander. Still, militarily, the Tet Offensive was a total defeat of the Communist forc! es on all fronts. It resulted in the death of some 45,000 NVA troops and the complete, if not total destruction of the Viet Cong elements in South Vietnam. The Organization of the Viet Cong Units in the South never recovered. The Tet Offensive succeeded
on only one front and that was the News front and the political arena. This was another example in the Vietnam War of an inaccuracy becoming the perceived truth. However inaccurately reported, the News Media made the Tet Offensive famous.

"Vietnam History"
http://4dw.net/jqueen/history.html

VIETNAM REMEMBERED
http://remembervietnam.homestead.com/

Top 100 Vietnam Veterans WebSites
http://www.topsitelists.com/start/vietnamvet/topsites.html

"18th Engineers"
http://4dw.net/jqueen/truth.html

Movie Review: We Were Soldiers (Once.....and Young)
http://remembervietnam.homestead.com/idrrang.html

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Thank you Cman,well stated --the very points I've been trying to put across for years.The only points I might disagree with is I think those in world war 2 had it much rougher the those in viet nam--depending which units they were in. Many ww2 missions were in a way, true suicide missions where storming beaches led to in some cases almost 33% casualties. We had one distinct adv in Viet Nam--if it was in the air,it was ours--if it was mechinized and on the ground it was ours.It was the most one sided combat in history prior to afgan and Iraq. If allowed to invade the North and take it to them this war would have been over in a month at most.