european cowardice

[smurphy]

Did we (the US) go to Europe in WW2 in order specifically to save France? I'm quite sure that we did what was in our best interest - economically, security-wise, etc. In happened to be that what we did was help (with other allies) to kncock the frickin Nazis into that final bunker in Berlin. As a result, France was liberated.

And you know what - The overwhelming majority of France was and still is very grateful for that. They honor our dead in Normandy as their own. I, for one, was treated very well in France - even Paris. Sure, there are some snobs - but so what. Attempting the language went a long way in being treated with respect for me. It's not much different than what we expect from foreign visitors too.

Life goes on though - it's been 60 years since WW2 and many many issues have come across the table since then. Is France supposed to be our bitch forever? If not, then how long?

 

[gardenweasel]

we did save france...whatever the rationale....

and they don`t have to be our bitch...just not the biggest whores in the world.....

thy resent us...our power...our prestige...

who do you think supplied saddam with the technology and assistance to build his nuclear reactor?......

our buddies.....

not talking some missiles....not some tanks....nuclear technology....to make weapons...

of course knowing the arab/israeli situation....and the delicate balnce of power in the middle east...

 

[MrChristo]

This left no-one available to fight the Nazis in France except the US and Britain.

Oh really?....:thinking:

So becuase their leader was a corrupt coward, no French people died fighting against the Nazi's?
Interesting.

Perfect post, smurfy. :toast:

 

[MrChristo]

gw....I know we've been over this before.....

...but, who supplied Bin Laden and his fighting Afghani's with weapons?
Who put Saddam in power and gave him all the logistical and physical support he needed?

All the while knowing (well....presumably, but I'm starting to have my doubts!!) the delicate situation....

 

[gardenweasel]

nuclear weapons,mr christo....c`mon....in the middle east,man.....use your head.......

we helped saddam because the iranian`s were the bigger threat at the time...they were holding american hostages,if you recall...

it`s always the u.s. with you,isn`t it...

what do you think the world would look like without the great satan?....

you can`t see the forest for the trees...

you really resent the u.s....it`s very sad...

 

[gardenweasel]

i can`t be negative...i`m watching some old johnny carson schtick on the tonight show....

even if you hate america and americans,you`d love johnny carson......he was a classic....

goodnight,guys...

 

[danmurphy jr]

That explains everything. We badger a few weak "coalition forces" to make the prosecution of war crimes next to impossible. Example: The Dutch have 1550 troops whose only job is to protect 500 Japanese troops who will leave if one of them so much as gets a hangnail. We then invade a country illegally, exterminate 100,000 of it's citizens ala Poland 1939. Detain and torture thousands with no charges. But that sits well and dfferent opinions are belittled. We have the receipts for everything Iraq owns. The cradle of civilization has been leveled by criminals in a war that can not be won. But that seems to be OK, as long as everythings alright in Cleveland.07/05

 

[MrChristo]

No....It's just that I quite honestly cannot see how anyone can justify one countries stupidity over anothers.

I don't see how what I posted can be seen as anti-American, as you keep saying!

It happened. Yet you blast France for getting involved 'knowing the situation'.

We in the west have known (or should have known!) the delicate situation all along, yet consistantly pick and choose one side or another 'because the other is a bigger threat', until, of course, inevitably the 'other' side powers up, and we flip again.
(Like it or not, Bin Laden is the perfect example)

My personal opinion is that we simply cannot keep justifying these decisions by convincing ourselves that we are always right....
As always, there is more than one perspective.

nuclear weapons,mr christo....c`mon....in the middle east,man.....use your head.......

Pakistan and India have been at war for 100 years and they both have Nukes....and, as I've said before, no-one seems to care that they were about 10 hours from wiping out the world as we know it 3-4 years ago.


Why do I often comment on the US?...It's quite obvious, gw....Your country is one of the biggest, the most powerful, and currently the most active country on Earth.

Like it or not, your country is part of the current world issue.

It has nothing to do with resentment, or jealousy, or my love of the French (lol!!)...It just happens that I don't agree with some actions of the US (and by inference, Australia, the UK etc.). End of story.

Get it into your head that I am no US-hater!

If I can't see the forest for the tree's, then maybe...just maybe, you're too patriotic to see any other side of the story.

I'm a firm believer of Eddie's 'grey' world. NOTHING is black and white.
I guess that's where I differ from a lot of you guys.


[Might be a good idea to sign a prenup before we start our venture...I'd hate to see our 'family' of little guys hurt because of our disagreements. ]

 

[JT]

By the time we invaded Normandy Germany was already losing. In the end we saved Europe from being under a much larger Soviet umbrella.

 

[Chanman]

BERLIN - They are unlikely allies, but right-wing extremists and Islamic militants share a hatred for Israel and the United States that has drawn the attention of German authorities.

Since 2001, when Islamic extremists and neo-Nazis cheered the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the two camps have echoed each other's abhorrence
of what they view as a world controlled by Jews and enforced by Washington's military power. There are no links suggesting that right-wing and Islamic groups are collaborating on terrorism-related
strategies, but law enforcement officials are concerned over the growing attraction between the two.

''The common ground they share is deep on two issues,'' said one Western diplomat. ''They cannot tolerate the existence of Israel, and
they share a conspiracy theory that the US wants to control the Middle East and the world's energy supply. It's a very paranoid world view, but they share it deeply.''

On Wednesday, the government outlawed Hizb ut-Tahrir, or the Party of Liberation, an Islamic group accused of spreading violent anti-Semitism on university campuses and establishing contacts with neo-Nazis.

Though extremists in both camps have been eyeing one another for decades, many are skeptical that such an alliance can advance very
far, given broad religious and philosophical differences. Neo-Nazis and skinheads historically have accused immigrant Muslims and other
foreigners for spoiling their dream of a pure German state. Street thugs of the right wing, according to some officials, will not easily abandon antiforeigner sentiments in favor of joining Islamists in a campaign against the United States and Israel.

''Right-wing extremists are so xenophobic that we can't imagine a deep structural connection between these groups,'' said Isabelle Kalbitzer, a spokesperson for Berlin's Office for the Protection of the Constitution, which prosecutes offenses against the state. ''But we are keeping a close eye on this.''

Although neo-Nazi followers may not be embracing Islamic rebels, right-wing leaders and ideologues have come to admire the tenacity of Muslim militants. This was heightened after the Sept. 11 attacks, when right-wing extremists were awed by the Al Qaeda network's dedication and patient planning in striking the icons of US capitalism and military prowess.

''Islamic militants are strange heroes for the right wing,'' said Herbert Mueller, a government analyst of political extremism in Baden-Wuerttemberg state. ''The right wing detests Islam, but that kind of commitment shows what they are lacking.''

Udo Voigt, chairman of Germany's main right-wing political force, the National Democratic Party, surprised the mostly Muslim audience in a university lecture hall late last year when he attended a speech by Shakir Aasim, a representative of Hizb ut-Tahrir. Voigt also supports
Ahmed Huber, a Swiss right-wing leader who espouses closer ties with Muslim radicals and is under investigation by US authorities for possible financial links to Al Qaeda.

Voigt was quoted by German television as telling the university crowd, ''I think I speak in the name of all German nationalists when I say, if it comes to a great clash [between civilizations], we will not
stand at the side of America.''

Aasim said he was unaware Voigt was in attendance. ''I was astonished,'' he said. ''I didn't know who he was until someone told me.''

Aasim, whose group is being investigated by Germany for alleged ties to terrorist networks, said he doubts right-wing and Islamic movements will merge. ''We have very different ideas,'' he said.

But there is evidence of attraction between the radical views of East and West. Islamic fashion has even added a dash of color to the drab skinhead uniform of high boots and jeans. Neo-Nazis have been appearing at German rallies wearing Palestinian scarves and calling for worldwide intifada.

And last summer, members of the right-wing fringe group Fighting Union of German Socialists attended a ceremony at the Iraqi Embassy in Berlin to receive an award from Saddam Hussein's regime.

Groups such as the Fighting Union of German Socialists are considered absurd by law enforcement and intelligence officials. But more
mainstream right-wing leaders, such as Austria's Joerg Haider, the unofficial head of the Freedom Party, have made overtures to the radical Arab world. Haider visited Libya and Iraq several times in
recent years.

One of the most troubling figures on the right is Huber, a Swiss businessman and right-wing leader who travels throughout Europe and the United States promoting radical views and closer ties with Islamic groups.

Huber converted to Islam in the 1960s. He denies that the Holocaust happened, and he supports jihad, or Islamic holy struggle.

He was a member of the board of Nada Management, a financial services subsidiary of the international Al Taqwa group. US law enforcement
agencies allege that Al Taqwa served as a financial adviser to Osama bin Laden.

This story ran on page A6 of the Boston Globe on 1/19/2003.

 

[Chanman]

January 23, 2005

Muslims boycott Holocaust remembrance

BRITISH Muslims are to boycott this week?s commemoration of the liberation of Auschwitz because they claim it is not racially inclusive and does not commemorate the victims of the Palestinian conflict.
Iqbal Sacranie, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, has written to Charles Clarke, the home secretary, saying the body will not attend the event unless it includes the ?holocaust? of the Palestinian intifada.

He said similar events held in other European countries was an ?inclusive day? that commemorated deaths in Palestine, Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia, as well as the former Nazi death camps.

?We wrote to the Home Office three or four weeks ago. We said the issue of the Holocaust is not really the concern. But we have now expressed our unwillingness to attend the ceremony because it excludes ongoing genocide and human rights abuses around the world and in the occupied territories of Palestine,? he said.

Home Office officials have told the council, which represents more than 350 Muslim organisations, that they are considering the request. But officials have no plans to broaden the remit of the occasion because they fear it would infuriate the Jewish community.

The Queen, the Duke of Edinburgh and Tony Blair will attend the ceremony in Westminster Hall this Thursday to mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz and other Nazi death camps, in which more than 6m Jews were exterminated.

More than 600 Holocaust survivors living in Britain, together with British soldiers who helped liberate the Bergen-Belsen death camp, will be at the event. Jack Straw, the foreign secretary, and Prince Edward will fly to Poland for a ceremony at Auschwitz.

This weekend the boycott by the leaders of Britain?s 1.2m Muslims was condemned by Khalid Mahmood, the MP for Birmingham Perry Barr. ?I?m proud to be a Muslim. But if people are boycotting this then I think it?s a mistake. People who were exterminated in the Holocaust were not just Jews. There were Romany gypsies as well. Anybody who is interested in human rights should support this remembrance.?

The boycott is an embarrassment for Clarke, who as the cabinet minister responsible for ?faith communities? is the event?s official host. It has also angered the Jewish community, which sees it as a snub to the memories of Holocaust victims and to survivors.

Blair said: ?It is our hope that Holocaust Memorial Day will provide a focus for reflecting on that tragic event, and on our shared and individual responsibility to work for a more just and tolerant world.?


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1452462,00.html

 

[Chanman]

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/AmericanStateTerrorism.html

 

[gardenweasel]

dan....you didn`t answer my question....

 

[gardenweasel]

"""We in the west have known (or should have known!) the delicate situation all along, yet consistantly pick and choose one side or another 'because the other is a bigger threat', until, of course, inevitably the 'other' side powers up, and we flip again.""
(Like it or not, Bin Laden is the perfect example)


we helped hussein because of all the trouble the ayatollah was creating in the middle east.....the ayatollah began to call for an uprising of sh’ia fundamentalists all over the middle east, including his old neighbors in iraq,and took american hostages.........breaking int`l law by taking over the embassy....what were we supposed to do...that`s right,sit on our hands....

saddam,more of a secular leader saw his power threatened by the threat of fundamentalist expansion....it can be argued that he he invaded iran out of fear,moreso than expansionism...

of course we funded him....all of nato did...

and we didn`t "put him in power",as you incorrectly stated...ridiculous...don`t let the truth blur the issue,though...


and this one is precious...

""Pakistan and India have been at war for 100 years and they both have Nukes....and, as I've said before, no-one seems to care that they were about 10 hours from wiping out the world as we know it 3-4 years ago."""

and the logic is?.....let iran and the rest of the middle east build as many reactors as they want...pakistan and india haven`t obliterated one another yet....lets roll the dice?....

you can`t put the genie back in the bottle as far as india,pakistan and n.korea are concerned....

but you can make an effort to keep the rest of the middle east from going hot....and i`d argue that iran under the mullahs and iraq under saddam...both of whom have threatened to exterminate israel and the jews,are much more of a threat than pakistan and india...

"islamofascism" is the enemy now...not islam...and not muslims..they are as much in harms way as the west is......decent muslims and a peaceful islam is in dire jeopardy...muslims who fled to europe to escape the oppression are now being threatened there...


enemies and alliances aren`t carved in stone...france is the perfect example....

alliances are amorphous entities...they ebb and flow like the tides...

nuclear weapons,mr c........that`s what france and chirac attempted to provide for saddam...not to fund him to fight the greater danger at the time...the ayatollah....

they wanted to give him the capability to change the world`s landscape in one push of a button....

now,iran stands at the threshhold....the entire world needs to step up to the plate....

it`s in everybody`s best interests...except maybe some anti-semites,islamofascists and a few liberal wackos...

 

[gardenweasel]

you guys fight it out for awhile...i agree with dan...i feel like a" professional poster"...

and i don`t like to be perceived as anti-muslim,which i absolutely am not...just trying to counter-balance the discussion...

thanks for the debate..

g.l.

 

[Chanman]

and i don`t like to be perceived as anti-muslim,which i absolutely am not...just trying to counter-balance the discussion...

And who do you think danmurphyjr was in his previous 'life?' :mj05:

 

[kosar]

Yeah, it's definitely hellah10. I thought he said he had to leave for his second tour in Iraq like 2 months ago. Guess he has a lot of down time to play on madjacks over in the desert.

 

[Chanman]

Once a Jew sits on something, it's his and he won't give it up. It's been going before we were born and be going long after we're dead. :com:

 

[djv]

G W, hate to tell you this Iran was the a bigger threat and still is.
So we invade Iraq. Ask Israel they will tell you who was to be feared and taken out first. It was not Iraq. In fact Iraq was third or fourth. So far Europe was smart. Maybe they new this to.

 

[danmurphy jr]

These are not the Management of Keispy Kreme

v Rothschild: London and Berlin
v Lazard Brothers: Paris
v Israel Seiff: Italy
v Kuhn-Loeb Company: Germany
v Warburg: Hamburg, Amsterdam and The Netherlands
v Lehman Brothers: New York
v Goldman and Sachs: New York
v Rockefeller: New York
These are the (Class A Stockholders) of the Federal Reserve Banking System. Ie:Who we pay the Interest to on the Money being printed to prosecute the Invasion of Iraq. Think about it. These folks fund both sides of any war. Ever wonder why the largest terror organization on the planet is getting it’s ass kicked by people who wear tennis shoes and headbands. There’s more to this than excercising fingers on a keyboard