is it better for all concerned that democracy fail in iraq?

[gardenweasel]

i understand that why the u.s. went into iraq is a hotbed issue........wmd`s?....to take oil......old british colonialism.....saddam`s refusal to comply with u.n. resolutions for years on end....to try and establish democracy in the middle east......etc.........

o.k...we can all disagree on the reasons....and whether it was smart...whether it was stupid....whatever....i say history will be the judge...unless you are nostradamus....

it`s done...we`re there...it`s a fact...

so,my questions are

1)"will it be a good thing for democracy to fail in iraq?"...

2)will the world be a better place?.....the middle east?

3)are you more comfortable with either the ba`aths and/or the radical fundamentalists assuming control of the country?....my guess is it will be the latter...

4)are you so politically wed to anti-bushism....anti-americanism...anti-colonialism(if you perceive it that way),that you`d rather see free elections totally fail to validate your political and/or ideological bent?

5)do you believe there will be wholesale slaughter of pro-democracy sympathizers if we fail and withdraw?

6)are you actually hoping for an american failure because you perceive america as a bully?.....


7)"should we ignore iran`s burgeoning attempt at nuclear proliferation?...leave it up to the u.n. to handle?"..

and finally...


8)how would you prefer the iraqi situation be resolved?....how would you like to see it end...what would you like the the result to be?

thanks..`

 

[smurphy]

1. No. It would be wonderful for democracy to succeed there. The short term looks bad. By short term, i mean the next decade+. The long term is scary too - the number of new Jihadists worldwide from all of this is unkown.

2. To hard to say at this point. I believe the World and the ME are worse right now. I blame our President and his cronies for getting the blood on all of our hands.

3. At this point, I'm not comfortable with anyone running Iraq. I don't think we would allow a radical to win. Then again, a moderate could end up becoming radical if his constituancy pressures him enough.

4. Yes, I hate all that is good. I revel in failures. Come on! It's like trying to convince people that 2+2 = 5. The president tells me the answer is 5. I know in my brain and heart that the answer is 4. I REALLY REALLY REALLY want the answer to be 5, for the sake of the nation. But if it's 4, it's 4.

I notice this is the question being raised by the Right a lot lately. Always avoiiding the issues - shifting blame to people who voiced opposition for not being patriotic. It's ridiculous. There's always a safety net/ scapegoat. When things don't go well, let's blame the people who cautioned against action from the very beginning.

5. There will be slaughter of people no matter happens at this point. Yes - I think without us there, there will be more. We should double our troops at this point.

6. Yes. Please, let's fail - so that I can be less safe, less wealthy, more hated, everything. Please let us fail.

7. I don't know what to do with Iran. If we attack, I think we're doomed for a lifetime of war. Iran having nukes is not the end of the world. Pakistan has them and have not used them. Same with N Korea. One way or another, a large nation like Iran eventually gets them. We have to face facts - we can't control everything - it's physically impossible. Moderate - pro American voices had been gaining strength in Iran (but I'm sure have lost momentum thanks to us in Iraq), there's hope of a decent government there. Perhaps we can work with them (again, Iraq hurts our diplomatic cause there greatly).

8. I would like to see Iraq be a wonderful free society, so that the Republicans can complain about them not appreciating us.

 

[gardenweasel]

why are you guys so frickin` condescending....i was hoping for some honest answers....i think you answered 2 questions...the rest was sarcasm,whining and anti-republican/anti-bush crap.....

was there a yes or no answer to #4,smurph?.......or just more anti-bush rhetoric?...i think you answered the question... no need to elaborate...your answer speaks volumes...you hate bush...and yes,you are so wedded politically to yout ideology that you hope we fail...

you had very few ideas...or straight forward answers...typical...just more whining...

...you aren`t comfortable with anyone running iraq...we wouldn`t let a radical run iraq?....

how would you ever know?...they are blowing up polling places faster than you can spout negativisms...

sorry i posed the questions...i thought i`d get some answers..not sarcasm and political rhetoric...

trying to get answers or opinions devoid of partisan political b.s. is harder than trying to find an uneaten donut in the dressing room of a plus sized fashion show.....

 

[smurphy]

Well, the wording of some of questions begs of sarcasm.

4. No. I DO NOT WANT FREE ELECTIONS IN IRAQ TO FAIL.

READ AGAIN - I sadi we should double the troops to increase security.

I honestly said I'm not comfortable with anyone running Iraq. Are you? Which of the 18,000 candidates suits you best.

I was honest and throrough with every question. Sorry about the sarcasm, I thought you'd be able handle it.

Yes - I despise Bush. I was once a Conservative if you can believe that. I can't believe more Conservatives don't have a problem with Bush. He is the most reckless, dangerous president ...maybe ever.

 

[kosar]

lol- I'm a little nervous after GW's response to smurphy, but i'll give it a shot.


1)"will it be a good thing for democracy to fail in iraq?"...

Of course it would be better for democracy to succeed.


2)will the world be a better place?.....the middle east?

Not really clear on the question. 'Will the world be a better place if what? If it's democracized? Or just in general as we go down this path?

3)are you more comfortable with either the ba`aths and/or the radical fundamentalists assuming control of the country?....my guess is it will be the latter...

Again, sorry, not real clear on the question. Are you giving the choice of the Baaths or radicals, or is there another option? Between those two choices I would prefer the Baaths.

4)are you so politically wed to anti-bushism....anti-americanism...anti-colonialism(if you perceive it that way),that you`d rather see free elections totally fail to validate your political and/or ideological bent?

No, I would not prefer the elections to fail


5)do you believe there will be wholesale slaughter of pro-democracy sympathizers if we fail and withdraw?

I think it would be more along the lines of civil war.But I think that will happen regardless of how the election goes, whenever we withdraw.

6)are you actually hoping for an american failure because you perceive america as a bully?.....

No


7)"should we ignore iran`s burgeoning attempt at nuclear proliferation?...leave it up to the u.n. to handle?"..

I don't think we should ignore it, but we should give much thought to the ramifications of trying to destroy their program with surgical strikes. Definitely should give diplomacy every last chance in this case.

8)how would you prefer the iraqi situation be resolved?....how would you like to see it end...what would you like the the result to be?

I think that the best we can hope for is to leave Iraq with a lasting peace. Democracy or not, just peace and not a civil war. If we leave and it turns into even more of a free for all, then what exactly have we done to those people? I shudder at the thought.

 

[I LOVE WR]

GW ARE YOU ALRIGHT?

1)IDIOTIC MEANINGLESS QUESTION

2)WITH DEMOCRACY OR WITHOUT

3)AGAIN SARCASTIC IDIOTIC QUESTION

4)IM NOT ANTI ANYTHING EXCEPT I AM AM ANTI STUPIDITY. AND I CANT STAND LIARS. FREE ELECTIONS OBVIOUSLY WONT BE LEGIT IN IRAQ PRESENT DAY. BE REALISTIC.

5)WHO KNOWS

6)ANOTHER IDIOTIC QUESTION

7)WHO KNOWS. ARE U GOD, IS THE US GOD. NO

8)OBVIOUS ANSWER BY EVERYONE EXCEPT THE FREEKS

YOU CALL SMURPH SARCASTIC YET YOU LOOK LIKE THE WHINY SARCASTIC ONE WITH THESE CHILDISH QUESTIONS. PATHETIC.

 

[gardenweasel]

god bless you, kosar......you are truly a fine fellow.........

i didn`t think the questionnaire was all that difficult....and yes some of the questions were a bit slanted in certain instances...

but,kosar,that was an absolutely fabulous reply......

thanks for the response.....

you may be included in my will.......well done...

 

[I LOVE WR]

YA KOSAR. NOTHING BETTER THAN TRYING TO RAM OUR IDEA OF A GREAT GOVERNMENT DOWN SOMEBODIES THROAT.

WE'RE NOT BULLIES, WE'RE JUST GOD LIKE.

LOL. THIS THREAD IS A WASTE OF LETTERS

 

[MrChristo]

In a lot of ways, gw, there is no 'if' or 'hoping'....

The upcoming 'election' is an absolute farce!!

About 70% of the country literally have NO IDEA even who the candidates are, let alone what they stand for etc. etc.

Candidates are to afraid to advertise...obviously too afraid to make any real stand.

Polling stations are being bombed. 3 destroyed two days ago....The interem Prime Minister has had attempts on his life already....

So...basically....Put me down (with a slightly friendlier tone!) for I LOVE WR's answer to number 4.

There is quite simply little point in this 'show' even occuring.

...Now that does not mean that I wish it to fail, because of anti-anythingism....but there is zero possibilty of 'free elections' at the present.

Maybe there will be in the future??....But I repeat, presently more than half of the population don't even know who the candidates are....There's every chance that less than 50% of people will vote anyway (even if they are guessing!)....and what sort of control will any 'winner' have (or even attempt to create?).....

Tough situation.

 

[reno4nook]

gw - That may be the stupidest question every asked...

Why would you embarrass yourself like that?

 

[kosar]

YA KOSAR. NOTHING BETTER THAN TRYING TO RAM OUR IDEA OF A GREAT GOVERNMENT DOWN SOMEBODIES THROAT.

WE'RE NOT BULLIES, WE'RE JUST GOD LIKE.

LOL. THIS THREAD IS A WASTE OF LETTERS

Wtf's your problem, whackjob? I'm against this war as much as anyone, but clearly, if by some miracle we're able to establish a democracy over there, it's better than the alternatives.

 

[AR182]

kosar,

you are better off ignoring this scmuck & his aliases.

he started up with senor capper in the nfl forum for no reason......& now senor capper stated he is through posting at this forum.

now who would people here prefer posting....senor capper has brought quality info to this forum for years.

what has this guy brought to the table ?.....just immaturity.

i witnessed him disrupt another forum & he is doing it here.

this guy is bad news & will drive quality posters away.

 

[kosar]

Really? I didn't catch that in the NFL forum. That wouldn't be right if Lanny stops posting because of this idiot. We'll have to talk him out of it in Vegas. Are you gonna be able to make it to the party on saturday afternoon?

 

[AR182]

i will be there....i usually don't miss the opportunity to drink for free.....

 

[gardenweasel]

reno...that`s cool....you are entitled to your opinion.....i just hope it`s your opinion...and that you aren`t somebody else`s "ghost"....

btw...which question agitated you so much?...or was it just all of `em..lol

kosar....thanks for bringing some perspective...you are one of the sharpest knives in this drawer....even though we disagree in many instances...regardless of the ideological differences,i always enjoy your posts...

mr c......."""The upcoming 'election' is an absolute farce!!

About 70% of the country literally have NO IDEA even who the candidates are, let alone what they stand for etc. etc.

Candidates are to afraid to advertise...obviously too afraid to make any real stand.

Polling stations are being bombed. 3 destroyed two days ago....The interem Prime Minister has had attempts on his life already"""....

yourself and smurph believeing that iran going hot is o.k...they`ll get nukes anyway....cool....

and those polling stations just happened to be schools...isn`t that just great,mr c?

try and contain your glee,mate..you are so transparent.......you should change your moniker to "saran wrap".....

o.k....

in 1864, 11 of the 36 states did not participate in the u.s. presidential election. .....was lincoln's election therefore illegitimate?

In 1868, three years after the security situation had, shall we say, stabilized, three states (not insignificant ones: texas, virginia and mississippi) did not participate in the election............. was grant's election illegitimate?



you say that if the iraqi election is held and some sunni arab provinces (perhaps 3 or 4 of the 18) do not participate, the election will be illegitimate............... nonsense...... the election should be held.......it should be open to everyone............ if iraq's sunni arabs -- barely 20 percent of the population -- decide they cannot abide giving up their 80 years of minority rule, ending with 30 years of saddam hussein's atrocious tyranny, then so be it..


this will be the first ever attempt at some sort of self determination in iraq for iraqi`s in memory....i know you`d prefer to have saddam as the only candidate...receiving 99% of the vote....

of course that would be preferrable...

obviously,the 3 or 4 provinces in central iraq that are primarily sunni won`t have much success with the election.... they don`t want it...and they`ll threaten,intimidate,bomb,assasinate or torture anybody that doesn`t tow their line....they like being the minority in power...they like subjugating the majority.....sort of like south africa...with extra added brutality...

i know that makes you happy...

the 4 major sunni provinces are al anbar(fallujah,ramadi)...ninevah(mosul)....salhaddin(tikrit)......and parts of baghdad....they will be dangerous....

there are 14 other provinces that it is believed will be stable enough to have some semblance of stability....

funny...the media never talks about the stable provinces...never gives any semblance of positive reporting...doesn`t fit their agenda ...all you EVER see is ramadi and fallujah...mosul...

of course the elections will be difficult...of course there will be horror stories...of course these monsters will reek havoc the likes that have yet to seen since saddam was removed...

50%?....with mass murderers around every corner?...that will be difficult.....

what`s the alternative?...that was the gist of my original line of questions....this situation is fact....the war is now history......i didn`t necessarily agree with it.....i saw the rationale...not sure it was compelling enough to warrant the action....certainly not the mistakes that were made in post war iraq....but,here we are...

that was my point...here we are...do we wring our hands?.....do we cut and run like the mr. christo`s of the world would like us to do?....or do we at least attempt to give the iraqi`s a shot at self determination?....as tough a mission as it may be...


the election is a farce?....hard to believe you think it`s o.k. for the monsters that want to resume their stranglehold on this country,be given the right of way....they would rather destroy everything than relinquish their grip...their control...much like saddam burning the kuwaiti oil fields he could not control....

a civil war?...there`s already a civil war...only one side is fighting it...the sunni`s..and of course the radical fundamentalists...who are a threat to the entire world...

 

[kosar]

Sounds good, AL. Will be a great time.

Thanks GW, right back at ya.

With Iraqi's currently voting in the US, Turkey, Austrailia, etc, I started to think about how the hell you get 18,000 names on a ballot. Does anybody know logistically how this is working? That's crazy.

 

[Chanman]

Where the F*ck do these guys come from? After Senor's stellar NFL capping this season he quit cause of ILWR??? That is most disturbing! These are just F'ing TROLLS!

It rubs the lotion on its skin, or else it gets the hose again....

I'm sure they'd love to be this annoying, but take it for what they are worth- nothing. One can only assume from this and other posts by such notables as ILWR, danmurphyjr, Fuzzy Nuts, reno4what, etc., that they are trolling. If so good job you have pissed quite a few ppl off. If however these are your true opinions on real world topics then I can only conclude that you are either angry 12 year olds or complete and utter dipsh*ts. F*ck knows whats wrong with you guys. Perhaps abused as a child?- (not meant as a joke).

Looking forward to seeing the regulars soon so forgive my etiquette or lack thereof:
Correct me if I'm wrong Kosar...white wine w/fish& red wine w/meat? Do I have to take it outta the paper bag too?
AR182...Don't talk, cough or Bogart the joint before passing it along?
RexBudler...which comes first- the Red Bull or the Vodka?

 

[danmurphy jr]

The operative phrase "etiquette or lack thereof"

 

[Chanman]

The operative phrase "etiquette or lack thereof"

You mean I can't seek validation from someone I've never met over an anonymous post on the Internet? I'm crushed!

Ever wonder why the largest terror organization on the planet is getting it?s ass kicked by people who wear tennis shoes and headbands.

1) No.
2) Like you they'll never show their face.

 

[bjfinste]

It rubs the lotion on its skin, or else it gets the hose again....

Outstanding reference, Channy.