Anything I've ever read from Dawgball has been very fair and logical. Even if I don't agree on every political issue, he seems like a guy who's integrity I would never question. Hey - we even share the same entrepreneur spirit!
Economy tanked?
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dawgball said:
Don't take it personal Dawg, but in all honesty I do tend to get pretty worked up when I see what appears to be another case of people who have not giving a damn about people who don't. This is where the problem in this country really lies.
Your original post in this thread where you refered to people losing jobs, and I quote, was "so what".
That bothered me more than you could possibly know simply because I have friends and family who are very much affected by the current economic situation in this country, some who have worked all thier lives at a job just to have it go away, these people can't just run out to college for 4-6 years like DR Freeze would suggest, it's just too late in the game for them to do that, what are your suggestions for them, another heart felt "so what"?
My job, it would appear is pretty safe reguardless of how the economy fairs (crosses fingers) but put yourself in the position of people who have lost jobs such as manufacturing and are too old to learn how to build micro processors or progam military computers. I personally know people affected in just that manner and see them struggle just to pay their bills. Perhaps thats not where you were heading with this topic, but it is certainally how I took it.
It was really an attack on your post, not on yourself personally, you kinda have to expect that in a political forum.
It is very easy for entreprenuers and people willing to sacrifice extra hours and relationships (like myself) to get a view that others should be willing to work just as hard for just as long of a time. It just isn't practical though. For most people, they need to spend time with families. They don't have the luxury of learning new trades all the time. They need the security of steady work with steady pay.
Corporations, for the most part, don't care. They will move to cheaper locations where people don't mind working for pennies on the dollar. Who loses? Our working middle class. Obviously they can't compete. Then the very same unions that helped our workers gain liveable wages and benefits are blamed because they make it tough the poor corporations.
Wages for the middle are dropping - it's a fact. During the recovery the last few years, corporate profits have been up over 60%, but the wages they pay have actually dropped slightly.
What amazes me is how many people don't care. Anything remotely pro-wage or pro-benefits is shouted down as being socialist. It's crap! We are losing the middle and are willing to do so because any measure to help the siutuation are feared as being communist.
The real estate situation has bailed many people out. The re-fi's, took out equity, sold - just to make up the difference. This can't keep up forever, though.
Corporations, for the most part, don't care. They will move to cheaper locations where people don't mind working for pennies on the dollar. Who loses? Our working middle class. Obviously they can't compete. Then the very same unions that helped our workers gain liveable wages and benefits are blamed because they make it tough the poor corporations.
Wages for the middle are dropping - it's a fact. During the recovery the last few years, corporate profits have been up over 60%, but the wages they pay have actually dropped slightly.
What amazes me is how many people don't care. Anything remotely pro-wage or pro-benefits is shouted down as being socialist. It's crap! We are losing the middle and are willing to do so because any measure to help the siutuation are feared as being communist.
The real estate situation has bailed many people out. The re-fi's, took out equity, sold - just to make up the difference. This can't keep up forever, though.
Losing manufacturing jobs is nothing new. They have been declining for decades--2 obvious reasons increased productivity and imports. With modernization 2 people can do the work of 3--we won't role back the clock so no help there--Imports --Tough to compete with them because because of their cost of labor--so we give huge pay raises to working class here--where are those raises coming from if not passed on to consumer which make our products even less competative with imports.No solution there.
I do feel sorry penguinfan for people who lose their jobs to layoffs but have absolutely no sympathy for those able to work but refuse to and skate on the system. Granted not everyone is a Dawgball or Kosar who have the ability to start their own business and succeed do to going the extra and do whatever it takes, but I think you will find the hardest part of starting a business is finding dependable help. Had renter in office that had office cleaning business and bought real estate on sideline few years back. He now just does real estate not because his cleaning business wasn't successful but because he could not find employees that would show up 5 days a week and he spent most of his time doing it himself.Same thing 30 years ago when I was at Chrysler, On Friday on nights (payday thusday) we always had to shut down line for breaks because not enough people in to releve workers for break.
You have those who's ambition alllows them to do nothing- just enough to get by-- what it takes to take care of them and their families--and those whatever it takes period. IMHO the 1st 2 catagories reap what they sow--the 3rd I have sympathy for as many have tough time through no fault of their own--the 4th will do what ever it takes.
---and just what is poverty here--one car (used)-2 phones-2 tv's-cable ?
I"ll go futher than Dawgs example--If a married couple earning $18,000 and $15,000 a year collectively can't make ends meet it isn't because they have income problem--its because they got spending problem.
I do feel sorry penguinfan for people who lose their jobs to layoffs but have absolutely no sympathy for those able to work but refuse to and skate on the system. Granted not everyone is a Dawgball or Kosar who have the ability to start their own business and succeed do to going the extra and do whatever it takes, but I think you will find the hardest part of starting a business is finding dependable help. Had renter in office that had office cleaning business and bought real estate on sideline few years back. He now just does real estate not because his cleaning business wasn't successful but because he could not find employees that would show up 5 days a week and he spent most of his time doing it himself.Same thing 30 years ago when I was at Chrysler, On Friday on nights (payday thusday) we always had to shut down line for breaks because not enough people in to releve workers for break.
You have those who's ambition alllows them to do nothing- just enough to get by-- what it takes to take care of them and their families--and those whatever it takes period. IMHO the 1st 2 catagories reap what they sow--the 3rd I have sympathy for as many have tough time through no fault of their own--the 4th will do what ever it takes.
---and just what is poverty here--one car (used)-2 phones-2 tv's-cable ?
I"ll go futher than Dawgs example--If a married couple earning $18,000 and $15,000 a year collectively can't make ends meet it isn't because they have income problem--its because they got spending problem.
Once the long term interest rates rise and the housing boom stops you will really see how this economy is doing. When millions of people find themselves upside down on mortgages they can't pay. That is when the rich will really have their fun. Then they will lecture the poor slobs they stole their house from about how they should not live beyond their means.
"When millions of people find themselves upside down on mortgages they can't pay. That is when the rich will really have their fun."
Wouldn't say rich necessarily but would say prudent--Goes back to what I said about what make but what you spend.
I wouldn't blame the Gov --I would put blame on these outfits on TV wanting you to borrow on equity in your home ect.
Those that have lived within their means and saved will in deed be able to pick up some bargins--and those that extended beyond their means will pay the price at some point in time.
The prudent will think wow what opportunity here--the extenders will whine about the economy.
Nothing new here--been going on since the beginning of time.Thats how you get different classes of people--
Wouldn't say rich necessarily but would say prudent--Goes back to what I said about what make but what you spend.
I wouldn't blame the Gov --I would put blame on these outfits on TV wanting you to borrow on equity in your home ect.
Those that have lived within their means and saved will in deed be able to pick up some bargins--and those that extended beyond their means will pay the price at some point in time.
The prudent will think wow what opportunity here--the extenders will whine about the economy.
Nothing new here--been going on since the beginning of time.Thats how you get different classes of people--
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Stevie--You are correct. When the interest rates rise and people are stuck with these ARM loans that they can not pay, there are going to be a lot of people moving back to being a renter. I don't see how the rich will be stealing their home, though. Plus everyone will not be in this position just because the interest rates rose; they will be in that spot because they were trying to live beyond their means.
Basically, with interest rates really low you have two choices: 1. Stay in the same type house or a little better and lower your payments (thus adding to savings); or 2. Move 2 or 3 steps above what you are currently in, pay the same amount that you always have in mortgage on an ARM, then get in trouble when interest rates rise.
I really don't see why the blame is passed onto anyone except two people. First, the person who decided to try to live above their means. Second, the mortgage broker/banker who convinced them it was a good idea. This situation extends well beyond the middle-middle class, though. There are plenty of people who make over $100K that are going to be in a lot of trouble when the interest rates go up, and their ARM runs out.
I guess this whole post is about my feelings towards people who would rather blame someone else for their problems. I am sure headlines are going to read like the rich are stealing homes. I don't think that is a fair/true statement.
pf-I do feel for people who lose their jobs. My "SO What?" comment was paraphrasing "You lost your job, so what are YOU going to do about it now?" Are you going to sit around and blame the government and people who have jobs, or are you going to use what skills you have, maybe suck up some pride, and go out and work? You may have to take a paycut for a while, but I guarantee that if you are a hard worker you will not be without work for long. Companies are desperate for good help. You may have to work harder than the next guy, but I don't see that being a problem.
This thread continues to show why this country is continuing to decline. Our people determine where we are going as a whole, and I think our attitude sucks.
Basically, with interest rates really low you have two choices: 1. Stay in the same type house or a little better and lower your payments (thus adding to savings); or 2. Move 2 or 3 steps above what you are currently in, pay the same amount that you always have in mortgage on an ARM, then get in trouble when interest rates rise.
I really don't see why the blame is passed onto anyone except two people. First, the person who decided to try to live above their means. Second, the mortgage broker/banker who convinced them it was a good idea. This situation extends well beyond the middle-middle class, though. There are plenty of people who make over $100K that are going to be in a lot of trouble when the interest rates go up, and their ARM runs out.
I guess this whole post is about my feelings towards people who would rather blame someone else for their problems. I am sure headlines are going to read like the rich are stealing homes. I don't think that is a fair/true statement.
pf-I do feel for people who lose their jobs. My "SO What?" comment was paraphrasing "You lost your job, so what are YOU going to do about it now?" Are you going to sit around and blame the government and people who have jobs, or are you going to use what skills you have, maybe suck up some pride, and go out and work? You may have to take a paycut for a while, but I guarantee that if you are a hard worker you will not be without work for long. Companies are desperate for good help. You may have to work harder than the next guy, but I don't see that being a problem.
This thread continues to show why this country is continuing to decline. Our people determine where we are going as a whole, and I think our attitude sucks.
Dawgs and Dog you are both correct to a certain extent. But it is the people borrowing on their homes that are keeping the economy going. As soon as those rates rise, and you can fault whomever, this country will take another beating.This will not affect the rich as much but it will be another blow to the working class. Not whining about it just telling the facts as I see it. You can see it differently if you wish but I ain't whining. Lets see how the rich whine if we start a draft or take back the tax cut to fund the war.
While not being rich I wouldn't mind them taking back tax cut to fund war IF thats what they used it for and reinstall it afterwards.
One point we have agreed on is I do not think the tax break was well timed with cost of war--and on the draft don't think it makes any diff on what side of the track your on--as I don't equate willing to serve with social class--I've seen them from all walks of life serve side by side and if there is any point in time social pecking order means nothing it is in time of war.
One point we have agreed on is I do not think the tax break was well timed with cost of war--and on the draft don't think it makes any diff on what side of the track your on--as I don't equate willing to serve with social class--I've seen them from all walks of life serve side by side and if there is any point in time social pecking order means nothing it is in time of war.
DTB:
If you think a married couple are just fine at a combined income of 33K in this country you are not in the same country as me. That may be true IF they have no kids or they don't provide opportunities for those kids.
Even rents have climbed greatly as they trail the housing boom - at least in my neck of the woods.
If you think a married couple are just fine at a combined income of 33K in this country you are not in the same country as me. That may be true IF they have no kids or they don't provide opportunities for those kids.
Even rents have climbed greatly as they trail the housing boom - at least in my neck of the woods.
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ocelot--your last statement is simply false. they may not be able to come and go as they please, but they could certainly live a fulfilled life. at least i know this is true with one child. now if they spit out 10, it may be a different story.
Also, as for the tax cuts for the wealthy you can't identify which tax dollars funded the war. The point is that you can't ask people to go die for the country for at best unclear reasons and then not ask the civilians at home to share some sacrifice at least to show moral support. And what is an absolute insult to our troops is to hand out tax CUTS slanted to the wealthiest.
In Bush's twisted world you can of course.
In Bush's twisted world you can of course.
