evil u.s. and britain may have cut the trapped soviet sub free....

gardenweasel

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"the bunker"
why`d we bother?......

these s.o.b.`s couldn`t possibly give a shit about helping us do anything....block us at every turn in the u.n...

they undermine us by helping the iranians continue to develop its own nuclear technology infrastructure. .....

been going on for years...

i`d have told them to f-ck off....

this country better wise up...the more we do around the world,the more we get shit on.....

time for a little tough love....

let `em suffocate...
 

gardenweasel

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"the bunker"
well...my explanation is that when iran finally does develop their nuclear arsenal....may not be today...or this year...but it will happen....thanks to russia and the u.n....what`s to stop the iranians from passing something on to their terrorist proxies....

after all,it`s all but certain that they are supplying the terrorists in iraq with larger and larger bombs for their roadside and civilian murder sprees...

i doubt that even the most hardcore "denialists" can refute iran`s connections to the terrorists...

and russia is famous for some of their nuclear technology..for instance,the "suitcase" nuclear weapon...

honestly,we had better tighten up our ship...and set some hardline parameters with some of these so-called allies....
 

danmurphy jr

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We are a tad out of touch folks. There is a treaty among NATO countries for just this type of emergency because of the Russian tragedy 5 years ago. It's governments who cause the UN problems not those kids walking from that trapped sub. Cold!
 

shamrock

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Where we should have never got involved, was defending the Saudi Peninsula for the Royals. We should have let obl do that, then we would have never been involved in any of this shit. Sit back and watch the Sunni and Shiite' s go at it till the end of time.
 

djv

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Amen! the hell with waisting our soldiers on those who don't care. If we or the Brits sounds like Brits got there first. Help the guys in that sub. Good job well done. These things go father then some may think helping with relations.
 
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kosar

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GW,

So because Russia gives certain nuclear technolgy to Iran, which is entirely within the guidelines of the non-proliferation treaty, we shouldn't help rescue 7 men freezing to death and running out of air? 'Let
'em suffocate?' Do I have this right?
 

Marco

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I'll give the Russians credit for opening thier mouth this time to say they had a problem with a trapped sub....more than the crew aboard the doomed Kursk got....all they got was delay and death....

Has there really been a policy in place for dealing with the countries supplying weapons for our enemy?

Did the North Vietnamese and North Koreans make all those AK-47's and mortars all by themselves.....those weapons that we went up against???

I'm thinking the old saying "A friend of our enemy is our enemy also" doesn't apply when the friend of our enemy is another big brother on the planet? Those toes too big to step on?
 

gardenweasel

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ak 47`s and nuclear technology?...hmmmm.....really?

not for power...but for nuclear weapons...of that there`s not much question...

the russians.....with possibly a small assist from n.korea.....are mainly responsible for iran being on the brink of going hot...

i`d say that`s pretty serious stuff..

business as usual?.....payback for afghanistan?....

i don`t know...i know it`s a little more than some rifles or even some missiles being sold...

you guys are happy to sit back and wait for a life changing/economy ruining event like new york taking another hit..... or d.c. being destroyed or made unlivable for a decade or so...

o.k...

don`t check my bags....don`t check library records....don`t profile.....sit back while your allies(france to iraq...russia to iran)help your worst enemies nuke up and arm to the teeth.....

make ridiculous treaties with n. korea with no verification....

don`t protect the border....

have the communistic,atheistic aclu undermining every attempt at security under the guise of civil rights violations....bitching about the patriot act without actual proof of flagrant violations....

the media undermining the military at every turn...slamming abu gharaib and gitmo with ridiculous stories...day after day...

you guys are right...this is viet nam all over again...

and this is why we`ll lose...because we have no will....we haven`t had any will in this country since the 50`s....

the islamofascists saw what happened in viet nam...they`re not stupid.....crazy and psychopathic...but not stupid...

.they know that all they have to do is help the media break the public`s resolve....

some casualties....some left wing media "we can`t win" spin... wearing down the american public`s resolve day by day....

hammering negativity day after day...politics overruling our survival instinct...

the reason we were so unprepared for this wave of islamist terrorism, not just militarily but psychologically, is sheer disbelief..... it contradicts our notions of progress....any civilized society`s notion of progress...`

the sheer savagery of blatant human slaughter by zarqawi or daniel pearl's beheaders, is a return to a primitiveness that we in the west had assumed a progressive history had left behind......


we were dead wrong.....we`d better get with the program....and stop doing business as usual with enemies masquerading as allies...
 

kosar

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gardenweasel said:
make ridiculous treaties with n. korea with no verification....

Man, you went off on all sorts of crazy tangents from the topic of the thread. I find it, uh, a little strange that somebody would say 'let 'em suffocate.'

On your totally wrong comment about North Korea, let me repeat ONE MORE F'ING TIME....The fuel rods were sealed, numbered, filmed and inspectors were ON THE GROUND OBSERVING. How much more god damn 'verification' do you want?

Bush made an idiotic comment...inspectors kicked out, cameras removed, rods removed.

But somehow, you blame Clinton. How utterly shocking.
 

gardenweasel

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marco...as far as those toes being to big to step on,i beg to differ...

american aid funneled through the "cooperative threat reduction [CTR] program was to help russia destroy its nuclear, nerve-gas and germ-warfare weapons........ instead, u.s.. aid has helped dismantle mostly obsolete military equipment moscow wanted to scrap anyway....

some of our aid has gone to fund 90 nuclear subs and the expansion of russia's nuclear stockpile while moscow continues to pursue nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons modernization....

has gone on since at least the bginning of the clinton administration...

and we`re not talking food aid or imf aid(international monetary fund)

throughout the 90`s and into this century the u.s. has acconted for 18.3% share of $20 billion in IMF cash loans signed...and this was many years ago...that amount has easily quadrupled....

russia was the #2 recipient of the most aid worldwide last year(gross)....the u.s. accounted for more than twice the foreign aid given by any other country last year...

and private u.s. aid is almost 3 times higher than official governmental aid...

i think we could get their attention...
 

djv

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So your saying this little treaty of course started back when Clinton was in office. Think again. It goes father and deeper then that.
And even if it did start with Clinton it would not be all bad for him. But I'm afraid Bill can't take all the credit.
Anything was better then the nothing that was there. But it goes back to last year Reagan was around. And Bush 41 and Clinton did keep working on it to do more. Anything was better then the old race to see who would wipe out who first. Coming out of communism was not a cheap venture for the Russian. You could see the reverse of what it would do to our economy.
As for the Sub. If the story was the other way around. You would except Russian help. Or would you say let our guys die.
 

smurphy

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I wonder what Commander Sergei Krikalev's reaction aboard the International Space Station would have been upon hearing that we allowed the Russians in the sub to suffocate. We have a pretty vulnerable crew floating around too, and I think they received a bit of help from a Russian or two in the last week or so.
 

gardenweasel

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kosar...you are utterly clueless...

bush has been in office for a little over 4 years....you have any idea how long it takes to produce neclear weapons?....it had nothing to do with bush...this all happened before bush took office...

you`re ridiculous ...this agreement was a sham from the get-go...

sheesh....

that`s like blaming bush for 9/11....after the clinton administration set the table...by doing nothing...

let me enlighten you...


secretary of state madeleine albright(had to be an affirmative action appointee...an utter moron) traveled to pyongyang in "94"...in 1994, we signed the "agreed fsramework" -- a deal that required north korea to cease work on its graphite-moderated nuclear power plants (which can produce weapons-grade plutonium) and promise to sin no more........in exchange, we agreed to supply north korea with two light water nuclear reactors (the $4 billion cost was shouldered mostly by japan and south korea).

additionally, the u.s. agreed to supply n.k.with 500,000 tons of heavy fuel oil annually gratis, to compensate for the loss of energy from the nuclear reactors it was, in theory, shutting down. the u.s.. further provided formal assurances that we had no plans to use or threaten to use nuclear weapons against north korea.

there you have the perfect liberal approach..... the thinking behind it is clear as a bell.....north korea is not aggressive; it is frightened, thus the assurances about our peaceful intentions...... north korea is not building nuclear power plants in order to become a nuclear bully boy, but only for electricity for its people....... we'll cheerfully provide that.

it failed miserably. a few years after signing this accord, the north koreans fired a missile over japan...... moron albright raced to a microphone to announce that "we agree, and we have let the north koreans know, in no uncertain terms, that the august 31st launch was a dangerous development."....then she added sagely "our engagement with north korea through the "agreed framework" remains central to our ability to press for restraint on missiles and for answers to our questions about suspicious underground construction activities....."

say what???

so, because we were bribing them not to cheat, we'd earned the right to complain when they did?.........wonderful.....

of course the north koreans cheated....... at first they hotly denied they had cheated, but later, they proudly proclaimed the fact. ........today, they claim and few doubt that they possess at least some nuclear weapons......

and north korea has shared its technology in the past with iran and libya, and since the nation is literally starving (communist economies always produce bumper crops of poverty), and since kim jong il is a vain and sinister leader, we must assume that north korea might sell nuclear weapons to the highest bidder.....

this is the table that has been set for us. ....

liberals seem to think that the greatest threats we face arise from the patriot act or from "bush's lies," the truth is that these s.o.b.`s would love to destroy us....

lol

chronology....

June 16 1998:
North Korea declared that it will continue to develop, test, and export ballistic missiles, officially acknowledging for the first time a clandestine missile export program.1

August 1998

Mid-Aug:
Press reports revealed that U.S. intelligence sources had discovered an underground site in North Korea located northwest of Yongbyon. The site, known as Kumchang-ni, was thought to house a nuclear reactor, reprocessing facility, or some other type of nuclear facility.2

Aug. 31:
North Korea test-fired a multi-stage Taepo Dong-1 ballistic missile over the main Japanese island of Honshu. In describing the test, North Korea reported that it had launched a satellite into orbit via a multi-stage rocket.

(that one`s a hoot)

October 1998

Oct. 19:
As a condition for continued funding for the Korean Peninsula Energy Development Organization (KEDO), the U.S. Congress required President Clinton to appoint, by January 1, 1999, a senior envoy to review the administration's North Korea policy.3

November 1998

Nov. 12:
President Clinton appointed former Defense Secretary William Perry as the North Korea Policy Coordinator.

Jan. 4:
A Japanese Defense Agency report stated that North Korea may have deployed medium-range ballistic missiles and constructed several launch facilities. The report also stated it was very probable that North Korea had fully developed and deployed its Nodong-1 ballistic missile.4

Jan. 19:
The fourth plenary of the Four Party Talks began in Geneva, chaired by North Korea. The parties agreed upon procedures for two working groups to address tension reduction and replacing the armistice with a peace regime.5

Jan. 22:
The director of the Japanese Foreign Ministry's North Korean division demanded the end of North Korea's ballistic missile tests in a meeting with North Korea's deputy head of the UN mission in New York.6


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



February 1999
[Notes for February 1999] [back to the top]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feb. 8:
The Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) announced that North Korea "will never give up" its "sovereign right" to build and launch missiles.7

Feb. 17:
The Japanese Defense Agency said that North Korea had the technological capability to launch a long-range ballistic missile that could reach parts of the United States.8

Feb. 25:
South Korean President Kim Dae Jung proposed the "Sunshine Policy" to resolve all outstanding political, security and economic issues with North Korea. Under the package deal, North Korea would be expected to curb its development and deployment of missiles and end its suspected nuclear weapons program. In exchange, North Korea would receive food and economic aid and Washington would end trade sanctions and normalize diplomatic relations with North Korea.9

Feb. 27:
The United States and North Korea resumed talks about U.S. access to Kumchang-ni. North Korea demanded one million tons of grain in exchange for U.S. access.

kosar....much like iraq,we weren`t given full access...we had to contiually up the ante to try and gain access...

the deal was totally bogus...no verification...


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March 1999
[Notes for March 1999] [back to the top]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

March 4-10:
U.S. envoy William Perry traveled to Beijing, Seoul, and Tokyo as part of his review of U.S. policy toward North Korea.

March 9:
President Kim Dae Jung and Perry agreed to continue pursuing economic and diplomatic engagement with North Korea while addressing concerns related to North Korea's missile and nuclear development programs.11

March 17:
The United States and North Korea agreed on Kumchang-ni access issues. The United States agreed to provide North Korea with food assistance. In return, North Korea agreed to grant the United States access to the entire site and to permit follow-up visits.12

March 20:
President Kim Dae Jung and Japanese Prime Minister Keizo Obuchi met in Seoul. They agreed on a stepped-up engagement policy to persuade North Korea to abandon its nuclear and missile ambitions.13

March 24:
The Washington Times reported that North Korea has not turned over vital parts of a 50-megawatt reactor, the construction of which was frozen under the Agreed Framework.14

Late March:
Two North Korean spy vessels in Japan's territorial waters were challenged by a Japanese patrol, which fired the Japanese military's first shots against a foreign presence since World War II.

March 31:
A fourth round of talks failed to convince North Korea to accept a U.S. demand to stop developing and exporting missiles. North Korea said it would never change its missile policy under pressure from the United States, but that it would be willing to suspend its missile exports if the United States paid a cash compensation of $1 billion annually for three years.....""""""


April 1999
[
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apr. 13:
The Japanese weekly magazine, AERA, quoted North Korean defector Kim Duck-hong as saying that North Korea has already developed and stockpiled "nuclear missiles." Kim, a former high-ranking North Korean official, said in the interview " North Korea had been importing precise components from Japan and uranium from Pakistan for the development of nuclear weapons."

Apr. 24:
The fifth round of the Four Party Talks began in Geneva, chaired by the United States."""

there`s more...but you get the drift...


they played the clinton administration like a fiddle....

how you managed...in your skewered liberal mindset.... to blame bush for this one,is beyond rationality...
 

CHARLESMANSON

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Hey liberals - why all of the sudden a concern for saving people's lives???

Russians = Help them
Iraqis = Forget them

We all know that the Russians were as thick as theives with Saddam Hussein....no wonder you liberals want to help them so badly.

You seem so concerned over the well being of 7 Russian military personel but could give a rats ass about an entire nation living under a genocidal dictatorship. If you liberals all had your way the Iraqi people would still be living under Saddam's murdering dictatorship. Almost half a million mass graves have been uncovered so far in Iraq. Saddam had rape rooms, torture chambers and used chemical weapons on his own people....but you liberals don't care.

I've even seen liberals in here, one as recent as last week, say that we should bomb the entire country of Iraq into oblivion. So help the Russians but fawk the Iraqis?? Liberalism at it's finest!!! Keep it up!!! :clap:
 

smurphy

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this thread began stupid and only got dumber over time. should not even be an issue.
 

RAYMOND

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gardenweasel said:
why`d we bother?......

these s.o.b.`s couldn`t possibly give a shit about helping us do anything....block us at every turn in the u.n...

they undermine us by helping the iranians continue to develop its own nuclear technology infrastructure. .....

been going on for years...

i`d have told them to f-ck off....

this country better wise up...the more we do around the world,the more we get shit on.....

time for a little tough love....

let `em suffocate...


:clap: :clap: agree 100%
 

smurphy

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THEY help us in space (see last week). and THEY are not SOVIETS anymore, by the way. Sheesh.

This attitude of people should agree with us about everything or hit the highway is both unpractical and undemocratic. What, we don't want anybody else to have their own opinions and self preservation concerns?

Sure, let them suffocate. That will teach them. I'm sure we'd have brilliant diplomatic relations and get a lot done with them after that.
 
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