It is about time...

[ferdville]

to get of of Iraq. The latest incident of political unrest where Baghdad's mayor was ousted seems to indicate that our goals are not being met. Kidnappers also grabbed a high-ranking Interior Ministry official. And 7 more US soldiers died.

I supported this at the onset, even though I knew that democracy and the Middle East are not compatable. I felt that the removal of Saddam was a good thing and still do. But this quagmire in Iraq shows no signs of improving.

A public relations problem exists, of course. Leaving now would put us at risk for major (and perhaps justified) criticism for not finishing what we started. It also sends a sad message to our soldiers, many of whom probably do want to accomplish lasting change in Iraq. And it casts the same doubts regarding our involvement as happened in Viet Nam. All that aside, there seems to be nothing we can accomplish there anymore unless we drastically change our approach. And that won't happen either.

It is not going to happen. It is time to craft a plan to get out. We cannot force the Iraqui people to do what they won't do on their own.

 

[Master Capper]

Good post....Absolutely agree, it's time to correct this error we made going theer in the first place.

 

[kosar]

Good post, Fred.

Will be interesting to see Mansons reaction, or more likely, lack thereof.

If it was me or MC or any of us who are against this war who posted that, we'd be subjected to 22 emoticons, we'd be called 'liberal pussies,' unpatriotic and anything else that popped into his pea brain. We'd probably even be called PRICELESS!!!

 

[IntenseOperator]

Think they will withdrawal a big chunk over the next couple years, but we will be there for some time. Can't shaft the population twice and pull out for a while. Also, need to let Iran know we are in the hood.

 

[Palehose]

"I supported this at the onset, even though I knew that democracy and the Middle East are not compatable. I felt that the removal of Saddam was a good thing and still do. But this quagmire in Iraq shows no signs of improving."

I will argue this one ! If Democracy in the Mid East are not compatable why are there democracy's in the Mid East ?

Turkey : Government Turkey Top of Page
Country name:
conventional long form: Republic of Turkey
conventional short form: Turkey
local long form: Turkiye Cumhuriyeti
local short form: Turkiye
Government type:
republican parliamentary democracy

Afganistan : Government type:
Islamic republic

Pakistan : Government type:
federal republic


You guys are just too easy gonna probably have to move along because its just no challenge here :grins:

 

[BobbyBlueChip]

You know, if you look at the U.S. it probably says that we're a democracy, too.

 

[Palehose]

You know, if you look at the U.S. it probably says that we're a democracy, too.

Sizing up that World Series ring bro ??? I think the Cubs are about to make a move :mj07:

 

[kosar]

That's just brilliant, Palehose. Holding up Afghanistan, Pakistan and Turkey to show that democracies work in the ME...lol.

You guys are just too easy gonna probably have to move along because its just no challenge here

What a terrible loss to the forum that would be.

 

[kosar]

Sizing up that World Series ring bro ??? I think the Cubs are about to make a move :mj07:

I'm gonna do you a favor and let you in on a little secret: those guys were screwing with you in that other thread the other day. Bobby is a huge White Sox fan. So while your digs about the Cubs are incredibly witty and fun to read, you're gonna have to get some new material(sic).

 

[Palehose]

Kosar are they not democracy 's ????? Are they not in the Mideast ? Do you think they would be better off like Iran ??? I got it you would rather have Afganistan go back to shooting women in the soccer stadium aye ? Get a grip ding dong !

 

[smurphy]

Pakistan is a joke of a democracy. If our goal in Iraq is to re-create Pakistan, then we may as well cut and run now.

Afghanistan. Well, that was a country in the stone ages, a much smaller population, and home the nice people who attacked us. That one we were completely justified in conquering and rebuilding in whatever form we saw fit. Jury is still out on how succesful of a democracy it will be. We pretty much planted the oil executive to run the place for now. If we thought (apparently our admin did) that conquering and rebuilding Iraq would be an equal task as Afghanistan, then we were in denial of mathematics and geography - doing a massive disservice to the troops. They deserve much more competent strategy and leadership.

Turkey - Culturally much more European than ME, and has been for a very long time.. Don't be fooled by 'Midnight Express'. It matured and evolved naturally. Democracy was not forced on it. By the way, if you ever have an opportunity to get with a Turkish woman, I highly recommend it.

 

[Palehose]

Oh and tell me your problem with Turkey ?? because that is one place that gives me great hope !

 

[Palehose]

Pakistan is a joke of a democracy. If our goal in Iraq is to re-create Pakistan, then we may as well cut and run now.

I agree but better than Iran no ?
Afghanistan. Well, that was a country in the stone ages, a much smaller population, and home the nice people who attacked us. That one we were completely justified in conquering and rebuilding in whatever form we saw fit. Jury is still out on how succesful of a democracy it will be. We pretty much planted the oil executive to run the place for now. If we thought (apparently our admin did) that conquering and rebuilding Iraq would be an equal task as Afghanistan, then we were in denial of mathematics and geography - doing a massive disservice to the troops. They deserve much more competent strategy and leadership.

Agreed again but so far so good overall much better than before

Turkey - Culturally much more European than ME, and has been for a very long time.. Don't be fooled by 'Midnight Express'. It matured and evolved naturally. Democracy was not forced on it. By the way, if you ever have an opportunity to get with a Turkish woman, I highly recommend it.

Turkey is what I hope Iraq can be and thats not far fetched .

 

[ferdville]

Of the entire ME you come up with Turkey, Afghanistan and Pakistan? Are you serious? Do you read the papers? Do you know how that upcoming election in Afghanistan is coming?
It looks like it will be quite a battle at the polls. One soldier was killed yesterday trying to prepare for the election process. Guerillas from the former Talibans attack US and allied forces daily. A US soldier died just the other day from wounds suffered in a bombing. That brings the total to 41 American soldiers killed there this year. What a hell of a democracy. 900 more Afghans, including election workers targeted by militants have been killed this year. And Afghan officials blame this on Pakistan, another of your so-called democracies.(LA Times, 8/11)
A bomb targeting election workers exploded last night. Somehow having to risk death and violence when going to the polls is not democracy. By the way, the ballot is an interesting one. There are a mere 5,800 candidates running for parliament in 69 districts. In Kabul alone there are 400 candidates. And this is what you want to hold up as an example of democracy in action in the Middle East????

 

[CHARLESMANSON]

Nice message to send to the world...America surrenders to the terrorists. General Patton would be rolling over in his grave.

Run away from the terrorists?? This will only empower them and encourage MORE TERRORISM. This will show them that they WON and more importantly that they CAN WIN AGAIN!! It would show the world that we CAN be defeated. So concede victory to Al Queda?? Run away?? Let them win? I don't understand this logic. That's weak. If a different message will be sent to the enemy then please tell me what it is.

This will encourage the enemy. It will leave them victorious and us cowards. Then what? What is your plan then you guys? How do we defeat Al Queda and Al Zarqawi who have already declaired a holy way on us??

Hopefully someone will answer these questions.

That would send such a great message to our enemy. So retreat? Cut our losses and go home? Surrender? Is that what Americans stand for? Is that the kind of country you want to live in?? Maybe you guys but not me.

What do you tell the family members of fallen soldiers? I'm really curious about that. Your son's death was for nothing. We gave up. We couldn't handle the heat. Sorry, but your son died for a cause that we gave up on. The terrorists won. We lost.

I just don't get it.

 

[Palehose]

You know, if you look at the U.S. it probably says that we're a democracy, too.

Thats too bad if true ! When you say something this downright stupid ....in this town your automatically a Cub Fan ....So I hearby Revoke BBC's White Sox Fanship on grounds of being to stupid to go on !

 

[Palehose]

Of the entire ME you come up with Turkey, Afghanistan and Pakistan? Are you serious? Do you read the papers? Do you know how that upcoming election in Afghanistan is coming?
It looks like it will be quite a battle at the polls. One soldier was killed yesterday trying to prepare for the election process. Guerillas from the former Talibans attack US and allied forces daily. A US soldier died just the other day from wounds suffered in a bombing. That brings the total to 41 American soldiers killed there this year. What a hell of a democracy. 900 more Afghans, including election workers targeted by militants have been killed this year. And Afghan officials blame this on Pakistan, another of your so-called democracies.(LA Times, 8/11)
A bomb targeting election workers exploded last night. Somehow having to risk death and violence when going to the polls is not democracy. By the way, the ballot is an interesting one. There are a mere 5,800 candidates running for parliament in 69 districts. In Kabul alone there are 400 candidates. And this is what you want to hold up as an example of democracy in action in the Middle East????

Your right Ferd their all better off being more like Iran :mj01:

 

[smurphy]

Turkey did not westernize by forced means. They've always had a major European influence. Culturally, I don't believe Turkey and Iraq have much in common at all - not enough to think Iraq can get there anytime in the next couple decades anyway. They almost had more in common under Saddam, having sort of a shared hatred of the Kurds.

Why isn't there a Kurdistan, by the way? They got screwed. Some in Turkey, some in Iraq - spit on by both. They've got every bit as good of an argument as Palestine for a homeland IMO.

 

[CHARLESMANSON]

Fuk Turkey. I'm still shaking my head at the thought of surrendering and bowing down to terrorism. This is nuts. Have a nice day in Fantasyland.

 

[ferdville]

This is from nationmaster.com. It rates the degree of democracy in various countries ranging from autocratic to democratic.


Country Description
Definition: Democratic institutions
Units: Scale ranging from 10 (autocratic) to +10 (democratic)

Amount
1. Netherlands 10.00 (1999)
2. Japan 10.00 (1999)
3. Switzerland 10.00 (1999)
4. Belgium 10.00 (1999)
5. Sweden 10.00 (1999)
6. United Kingdom 10.00 (1999)
7. Papua New Guinea 10.00 (1999)
8. Canada 10.00 (1999)
9. Poland 10.00 (1999)
10. Germany 10.00 (1999)
11. Portugal 10.00 (1999)
12. Mongolia 10.00 (1999)
13. Australia 10.00 (1999)
14. New Zealand 10.00 (1999)
15. United States 10.00 (1999)
16. Austria 10.00 (1999)
17. Ireland 10.00 (1999)
18. Trinidad and Tobago 10.00 (1999)
19. Finland 10.00 (1999)
20. Slovenia 10.00 (1999)
21. Iceland 10.00 (1999)
22. Norway 10.00 (1999)
23. Hungary 10.00 (1999)
24. Italy 10.00 (1999)
25. Israel 10.00 (1999)
26. Greece 10.00 (1999)
27. Lithuania 10.00 (1999)
28. Costa Rica 10.00 (1999)
29. Denmark 10.00 (1999)
30. Spain 10.00 (1999)
31. Thailand 9.00 (1999)
32. Czech Republic 9.00 (1999)
33. Slovakia 9.00 (1999)
34. Botswana 9.00 (1999)
35. India 9.00 (1999)
36. France 9.00 (1999)
37. Uruguay 9.00 (1999)
38. Jamaica 9.00 (1999)
39. Bulgaria 9.00 (1999)
40. South Africa 9.00 (1999)
41. Nicaragua 9.00 (1999)
42. Bolivia 8.00 (1999)
43. Dominica 8.00 (1999)
44. Ecuador 8.00 (1999)
45. Korea, South 8.00 (1999)
46. Brazil 8.00 (1999)
47. Colombia 8.00 (1999)
48. Argentina 7.00 (1999)
49. El Salvador 7.00 (1999)
50. Philippines 7.00 (1999)
51. Latvia 7.00 (1999)
52. Panama 7.00 (1999)
53. Indonesia 7.00 (1999)
54. Turkey 7.00 (1999)
55. Honduras 7.00 (1999)