POOR TOOKIE (HE SEEMS LIKE SUCH A NICE GUY)

[INtheBLUE]

mcity,

glad to see you chiming in here, and I have to agree with the main point you are making. Punishment for crimes are, in an intelligent society, meant to be deterrents of future crimes. If you get to live out the rest of what would have been your life, you really arent going to get it across to the next person that thinks that shooting 4 people, or being in a position of shooting 4 people, is not such a good idea.

Biatch,

I get your point too, arguing that some people believe he shouldnt die might be reason to not have the death penalty in the first place. One word, HOGWASH!! Government playing to a minorities is what is killing Christmas too. If you kill someone with malice, you should die too. Being alive is not the survival of the fittest anymore. You cant just kill someone for kicks and giggles and live out the rest of your life in a pampered lifestyle. (not having to work and still getting food, shelter, and stuff IS pampered) Face it Biatch, some people dont deserve to live, and it isnt someone else deciding who gets to live and die, it was Tookies decision to die when he pulled the trigger on 4 innocent people.

As far as taking 25 years. His guilt wan't in question. Just the plea of "he's changed". HOGWASH!! We should have just left him on the street and let him go free. With his lifestyle, he would have been dead long before now. Instead, he has been pampered in prison surrounded by all of his friends in his gang that he created.

"He has saved soooo many Lives since he wrote his book" HOGWASH!! I would like to have a pros and cons of Tookies Life list. How many names are on tombstones because of the country-wide gang that he started.

Sorry I was so long-winded, but I believe strongly in being punished for crimes and making the punishment fit the crime, and letting everyone know that the punishment WILL happen to anyone who repeats that crime.

 

[mcity]

mcity, you are missing my point. If you personally were convicted of a crime, innocent or not (allow just for a moment for the sake of argument), wouldn't you want all possibilities to exhasut before you were executed? And I would say again, IT DOESN"T MATTER HOW SWIFT IT IS, they never believe they will actually get caught!!!! And again, you said "for crimes worthy of it's use". Worthy to whom?? And the mentalities associated with murdering someone are hardly on the same level of anything that was going thru your mind during whatever it was that made your dad wup your ass.

Biatch,

If I was convicted of a crime and I was innocent of course I would want every option exhausted....if I was guilty, I would probably still "play the system" just like a lot of these criminals do right now with their appeals and loopholes. As far as a criminal "not caring about time because they don't think they'll get caught" then why all of the appeals? So I see, time doesn't matter until they get caught....and then all of a sudden they want to choose appeals and they plead to the governors and community activists to spare their life....why? because all of the sudden they value their life......well too bad, that person who committed a crime worthy of the DP had a choice before they did the act....their options at that point should be gone. As far as the crimes "worthy of its use" I think a majority of americans could very quickly compile a list of crimes worthy. And finally, I'm in no way trying to compare my dad whipping me to capital punishment (although at that age, my dad whipping me was in my mind capital punishment).....it was more about showing how I believe the time frame of punishment being carried out affects behavior.

 

[Agents Biatch]

Let's not confuse the issues. At no point did I suggest that crimes should not be punished, or that murder doesn't deserve punishment. The DP discussion I am having, or attempting to have, is how the punishment itself is distributed and used, which is inconsistent and wrought with human imperfection. I never even touted the position that Tookie should have been saved because of the value of all human life, but somehow this debate has turned, as it always does, to the "murderers must be punished discussion". Of course they should, but that discussion is entirely too simplistic to warrant having.

Mcity, you are correct - most Americans could very quickly compile a list of crimes that are worthy of the DP, and for the most part, that is outlined in laws. The problem is that there would be variance on those lists in WHICH CRIMINALS SHOULD RECEIVE THE DP FOR THE SAME EXACT CRIMES, from American to American. Of course the possibility of time and execution doesn't matter until they caught. Because until they get caught, a reality of their behaviors doesn't exist to them.

INtheBLUE, killing someone with mallice is not one of the standard aggravating circumstances that can make a case DP eligible. Mallice (or malice aforethought) is a basic required component of the criminal classification of murder. In other words, according to basic criminal codes, all murders involve malice. Now, based on that, would you suggest we execute every single convicted murderer in this country? (Before you answer that, consider the fact that we as a nation have the highest crime rates in the world, but we also utilize the death penalty more than any other country in the world...still think it's a deterrent mcity?) INtheBLUE, I also believe that the punishment should fit the crime, but the problem with the DP is that such a concpet means different things to different people. Again, rendering the DP completely flawed.

 

[Agents Biatch]

For you mcity....

The Death Penalty Is Not a Deterrent
A September 2000 New York Times survey found that during the last 20 years, the homicide rate in states with the death penalty has been 48 to 101 percent higher than in states without the death penalty.

FBI data showed that 10 of the 12 states without capital punishment have homicide rates below the national average.

The threat of execution at some future date is unlikely to enter the minds of those acting under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, those who are in the grip of fear or rage, those who are panicking while committing another crime (such as a robbery), or those who suffer from mental illness or mental retardation and do not fully understand the gravity of their crime.

Rather than show evidence of any deterrent effect, research studies reveal that the death penalty has a brutalizing effect:
Researchers did a comparison of murder rates and rates of sub-types of murder in Oklahoma between 1989 and 1991, and found a significant increase in murders (both felony and non-felony) after Oklahoma resumed executions after a 25-year moratorium.
Researchers Keith Harries and Derral Cheatwood studied differences in homicides in 293-paired counties. Pairings were based on: geographic location and demographic and economic variables; a shared contiguous border; differing use of capital punishment. The authors found higher violent crime rates in death penalty counties.
The Bureau of Justice Statistics reports that the South repeatedly has the highest murder rate. In 1999, it was the only region with a murder rate above the national rate. The South accounts for 80% of executions. The Northeast, which accounts for less than 1% of all executions in the U.S., has the lowest murder rate.

 

[Franky Wright]

Rather than show evidence of any deterrent effect, research studies reveal that the death penalty has a brutalizing effect:
Researchers did a comparison of murder rates and rates of sub-types of murder in Oklahoma between 1989 and 1991, and found a significant increase in murders (both felony and non-felony) after Oklahoma resumed executions after a 25-year moratorium.
Researchers Keith Harries and Derral Cheatwood studied differences in homicides in 293-paired counties. Pairings were based on: geographic location and demographic and economic variables; a shared contiguous border; differing use of capital punishment. The authors found higher violent crime rates in death penalty counties.
The Bureau of Justice Statistics reports that the South repeatedly has the highest murder rate. In 1999, it was the only region with a murder rate above the national rate. The South accounts for 80% of executions. The Northeast, which accounts for less than 1% of all executions in the U.S., has the lowest murder rate.

Statistical variance I say

Agree and disagree with what you have to say Biatch(kinda liked typing that :mj07: ) Dont have time to go into detail, but think about this...........
The south can get a little hot some times, and I know I get more cranky when Im all hot and sweaty :scared Now add in a good dose of anger, revenge, infidelity. Then stir in some high (or low for that matter) quality booze, drugs, or serious mental illines. Add a pinch of revolvers, shotguns, knives. Then blend with extorsion, money laundering, snitching, etc. And top it all of with 100% humidity. The perfect scenario for death! :bigun: :mj08:

Statistical variance I say :thinking:

 

[kosar]

Biatch,

You make very good points and you're obviously well versed on the general pitfalls of the death penalty. I agree with much of what you say, in particular but among other things that the DP is in no way any sort of deterrent.

But that really isn't the debate here and it isn't really germane to this thread or this situation.. For better or worse, California does have the death penalty. Ok, so now what?

You have a man who killed 4 people in cold blood, laughing all the while. The evidence in *this* case was airtight. He had 25 years to 'prove' his innocence. I'm sure that you'd agree that having childrens books ghost written on his behalf is not enough to overturn his sentence, which was death.

Californias mechanism for dealing with their worst murderers is death.

Furthermore, i'm sure you understand that peoples posts/reactions are a lot more emotional because of the contingent out there having vigils, being interviewed every time you turn around, having rallys.....all to save this murderer. Most of these 'supporters' were not there because they are against the DP across the board, but because they wanted to express their opinion that 'Tookie' was innocent or that because he 'wrote' kids books he should be spared. What next, commute the sentences of those that find 'religion?'

I think that you would make a very convincing argument on the much broader issue of the death penalty across the board, but under the current state law of California, I think it would be hard to make a case that executing this particular person was the wrong move, or the immoral move.

 

[INtheBLUE]

Biatch,

You make very good points and you're obviously well versed on the general pitfalls of the death penalty. I agree with much of what you say, in particular but among other things that the DP is in no way any sort of deterrent.

But that really isn't the debate here and it isn't really germane to this thread or this situation.. For better or worse, California does have the death penalty. Ok, so now what?

You have a man who killed 4 people in cold blood, laughing all the while. The evidence in *this* case was airtight. He had 25 years to 'prove' his innocence. I'm sure that you'd agree that having childrens books ghost written on his behalf is not enough to overturn his sentence, which was death.

Californias mechanism for dealing with their worst murderers is death.

Furthermore, i'm sure you understand that peoples posts/reactions are a lot more emotional because of the contingent out there having vigils, being interviewed every time you turn around, having rallys.....all to save this murderer. Most of these 'supporters' were not there because they are against the DP across the board, but because they wanted to express their opinion that 'Tookie' was innocent or that because he 'wrote' kids books he should be spared. What next, commute the sentences of those that find 'religion?'

I think that you would make a very convincing argument on the much broader issue of the death penalty across the board, but under the current state law of California, I think it would be hard to make a case that executing this particular person was the wrong move, or the immoral move.

Nicely put bucknut, good post.

 

[fatdaddycool]

Biatch,

You make very good points and you're obviously well versed on the general pitfalls of the death penalty. I agree with much of what you say, in particular but among other things that the DP is in no way any sort of deterrent.

But that really isn't the debate here and it isn't really germane to this thread or this situation.. For better or worse, California does have the death penalty. Ok, so now what?

You have a man who killed 4 people in cold blood, laughing all the while. The evidence in *this* case was airtight. He had 25 years to 'prove' his innocence. I'm sure that you'd agree that having childrens books ghost written on his behalf is not enough to overturn his sentence, which was death.

Californias mechanism for dealing with their worst murderers is death.

Furthermore, i'm sure you understand that peoples posts/reactions are a lot more emotional because of the contingent out there having vigils, being interviewed every time you turn around, having rallys.....all to save this murderer. Most of these 'supporters' were not there because they are against the DP across the board, but because they wanted to express their opinion that 'Tookie' was innocent or that because he 'wrote' kids books he should be spared. What next, commute the sentences of those that find 'religion?'

I think that you would make a very convincing argument on the much broader issue of the death penalty across the board, but under the current state law of California, I think it would be hard to make a case that executing this particular person was the wrong move, or the immoral move.

Yea I was just going to write that, but I had to pause my video game Resident Evil.

 

[buddy]

...issue

on here.

consecutive prepositions

:nono:

 

[Agent 0659]

Yea I was just going to write that, but I had to pause my video game Resident Evil.

:mj07: :mj07: :mj07:

consecutive prepositions

:mj07: :mj07: :mj07:

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Need to get facts straight before implementing your whole theory on deceit per your opening statement--to date there has NEVER been a person executed that was later proven innocent!!
Can you give us just one--nah didn't think so.
--with that being said I can respect your opinion, in fact wish you were correct --- maybe next one that comes up we can opt for home incarceration at your house and let you and your family live with your convictions.



"I am against the death penalty not primarily because of any sort of mushy compassionate standard, or the fact that human beings have been executed for crimes that they later were proven to have not committed (115 condemned people were released due to wrongful convictions between 1977 and 2003, care to guess at a number of innocents actually executed?), or even the very popular (and in many cases true) argument that the financial costs of rendering such a punishment are too great (and lets' face it...if you are going to execute someone, you better make damn sure you are right, and spend the money to do so, and as mentioned we aren't always right

 

[Agent 0659]

maybe next one that comes up we can opt for home incarceration at your house and let you and your family live with your convictions.

Umm I dont think so pal :scared

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

was a little rough Agent
Just get peeved when they munipulate #'s--like states with death penalty in relation to homicides. Depends entirely on demographical make up of area. If he really doesn't know what common denominator dictates what cities/states lead in homicides he can look up leading cities in homicides and find a clue

 

[Agent 0659]

was a little rough Agent
Just get peeved when they munipulate #'s--like states with death penalty in relation to homicides. Depends entirely on demographical make up of area. If he really doesn't know what common denominator dictates what cities/states lead in homicides he can look up leading cities in homicides and find a clue

Its not a HE its my woman and no killers are coming here! :scared Argue with her till your blue in the face, but leave my home out of it

 

[Agent 0659]

Posted by Biatch-






Dogs that Bark, you are awful venemous in your post, there is really no need. What makes you think I manipulate numbers? I don't need too, they speak for themslves. And besides, it's interesting that anytime someone, not necessarily just me in this thread, provides actual info, suddenly someone who simply disagrees with the issue always claims they are "manipulating he numbers". A little too convenient don't you think? Demographic factors always play a role, as well as a dozen more variables, but let's be realistic, that is another whole and very lengthy discussion. And I am more open to a debate involving real information and real arguments as opposed to "why don't they come an live in your house". Can you offer up anything a bit more sophisticated and well thought out?

 

[kosar]

Need to get facts straight before implementing your whole theory on deceit per your opening statement--to date there has NEVER been a person executed that was later proven innocent!!

That doesn't work. What kind of law enforcement agency is going to continue to pursue the details of a case AFTER an execution? And THEY are the only ones who could 'prove' beyond a shadow of a doubt that somebody was innocent.

She cited 115 death row prisoners freed after being exonerated. It's actually 122.

That was her point and she's correct. There are, and have been many(122 that we know of), innocent men on death row that have been freed.

I don't have a strong opinion on the death penalty in general(no moral problems, but don't see what the huge problems with life in prison are), but I do know that Tookie deserves death as his state allowed for it(Aren't we for the rule of law?) and I also know that 122 innocent people that were sentenced to death probably appreciate the appeals process and the length of time in between conviction and death. And of course DNA expertise, which of course has gotten these people off and with huge settlements.

That's one of the hypocrisies in Biatch's argument. She seems to discount DNA evidence when it comes to positively identifying the criminal, yet doesn't acknowledge that this is the exact same DNA evidence that has freed most or all of these 122 innocent people.

 

[Agents Biatch]

Kosar I don't know that it can be a hypocrisy that I didn't mention it, I just didn't mention it at the time. You are right about DNA exonerating those folks, I definitely recognize the value in that, and I recognize the value of DNA evidence in general. When I brought that up, I was merely illustrating that the presence of DNA doesn't always automatically prove guilt, as someone had implied that it did.

 

[Agents Biatch]

Kosar you are right...122. Harold Wilson of PA was the 122nd this past November.

Dogs that Bark...there is no way to tell exactly how many inncocent people have been executed, because as Kosar mentions police and courts do not normally entertain claims of innocence after the condemned are dead. However, at least 8 cases since 1976 have been identified as those with strong claims, and where the offender executed was likely or probably innocent. Likely and probably are pretty strong characterizations. I can provide those case citations for you if you want to investigate on your own further.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Sorry agent --didn't know it was your girl.

"Dogs that Bark...there is no way to tell exactly how many inncocent people have been executed, because as Kosar mentions police and courts do not normally entertain claims of innocence after the condemned are dead"

True but irrelavant as they are not the ones that would be looking into their being innocent--it would be the 10,000 Eddie Haskel's running around trying to make the big lick via lawsuit--You don't think they turn over every stone and some that aren't there?
Granted probably at some point they might find one--but chances are getting slimmer everyday as they are getting away from eye witness testimony alone for death penalty convictions--and they acccount for majority errors.Maybe Tookie was victum of same--however as in most cases those incarcerated also have long rap sheet of prior offenses against mankind.

"Several studies have tried to estimate the error rate, but it appears to jump all over the place. An early study by Borchard (1932) reported that eyewitness error contributed to 45% of the wrongful convictions in his sample. Buckhout (1974) regarded it as the most common cause of wrongful conviction. Rattner (1983) reported that more than 52% of the wrongful convictions he studied involved eyewitness error. For capital cases only, Bedau and Radelet (1987) found a 16% error rate. In the process of making an identification from photographic lineups, Loftus (1979) found that 29% were erroneously chosen. Huff, Rattner & Sagarin's (1996) more recent survey of judges and attorneys found that 60% of judges and 84% of attorneys ranked "accidental eyewitness misidentification" as the most frequent cause of wrongful conviction. In 1999, the APA's Div. 41 (American Psychology-Law Society) reviewed a number of cases that were later overturned, and found an eyewitness error rate of an astonishing 90%"

However I do respect your opinion on Tookie I am just not in the same camp as some---
Tookie Memorial Service Planned in L.A.

Saturday, December 17, 2005



LOS ANGELES ? A memorial service for Stanley Tookie Williams, the convicted killer who was executed earlier this week at San Quentin Prison, has been scheduled for Tuesday.

Among the guests invited to the public service are the Rev. Jesse Jackson, Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan and rapper Snoop Dogg, according to a statement by Williams' supporters.

Williams, the 51-year-old co-founder of the Crips street gang died by injection early Tuesday for the murders of four people in two 1979 Los Angeles County holdups.

The noon service will be held at Bethel AME Church and will include large TV screens outside.

 

[yyz]

You know what? If you live a clean life, you don't end up on "death row".

If you're on death row, chances are pretty good that you deserve to be there.

If you're one of the "poor bastards" who is "wrongly" on death row, it's a pretty safe bet you should be dying for some shit you didn't get caught for a few steps back!

Is the death penalty a deterent? Hell no! But I love the fukc out of it!

Some of you people want to act like if you swim a "little higher", you ain't in the same fish bowl as everyone else. This country has a lot of shitty people in it, and their numbers grow every fuking day. We kill deer so they don't end up over populating the land.......we kill stray dogs and cats for the same reason. We kill "sick" animals to prevent the spread of disease and harm to humans, but we want to wring our hands over a few hundred scum bags at the bottom of our socio-economic infrastructure?

Maybe it's time that some of you moral supremists stopped giving yourselves a pat on the back with one hand, and a reach around with the other, and realize that not everyone on this wonderful planet deserves the right to draw oxygen. For whatever reason, your "god", fate, cosmic dust......who cares, but for whatever reason, some pieces of the "machine" don't measure up to specs. When that happens, they need to get dumped into the big brown bin on the side of the assembly line, not pulled asside, and "saved" at a tremendous cost to taxpayers, because they are just as important to the "machine" as the working parts. BULLSHIT!