Something I don't understand about the Iraq war fans

[kosar]

All these people that continue to defend the farce in Iraq seem to be silent about Iran flouting their nuclear intentions. Yesterday they broke the seals on their biggest nuclear facility. Their president says Israel should be wiped off the map.

North Korea broke the seals, removed inspectors and removed video cameras from their facilities a few years ago.

Yet some people continue to argue(sic) that Saddam, with all his rocket propelled grenades, was our biggest threat. Even if he still had those chemical weapons from the 80's, he was a flea on an elephants ass compared to North Korea, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc.....

These people will defend this Iraq invasion to the end, but don't seem to care that Iran is telling us, 'we will continue our nuclear program and there is nothing you can do to stop us.'

There was never any question in any corner about the fact that Saddam DID NOT have nukes. The question was about nerve agents. Who gives a f*ck about that?

Now, the same useless war that some people defend, has relegated us to a toothless status with regards to ACTUAL threats.

But hey, Iraq had elections. Great.

 

[godsfavoritedog]

Damn, that was nice. :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[gardenweasel]

good points.....as a guy that`s provided rationale for the iraq action many times..i understand where you`re coming from...

the iraq sirtuation does tie our hands...a tough situation...hindsight is indeed 20-20

i will say,that info is now coming out via some allegedly newly discovered documentation that iraq was harboring AND training terrorist groups from at least 1999 through 2002.....and not just a few....

but,that`s not your argument...i`ll get back on point..

again,i agree with your premise...it`s a valid point...


one question,though....if we`d left saddam to his own devices...left him alone...and iran proceeded on the same course that they are currently following......

what would saddam have done?...could he have sat on his hands as iran...his enemy....nuked up?...

also,we now know that china and russia are actively...behind the scenes...helping iran and n. korea in the acquisition of missile delivery systems capable of carrying nuclear warheads....

the germans letting the murderers of american servicemen go free...

the u.n. is again delaying...while iran moves forward...

our action in iraq does tie our hands...but,equally as important is the u.n. and e.u`s inaction regarding saddam`s flaunting of u.n. resolutions.....without consequences...

you think the iranians aren`t aware of the impotency of the u.n. and the e.u?

are we ...and maybe britain and the aussies...the only ones left that see the potential consequences of letting this idjit "ahmanadinnerjacket" move forward with his nuclear plans?...

possibly resulting in nuclear war in the middle east?....

he`s using the same sort of inflammatory rhetoric toward israel that saddam was...

i can`t understand the mindset of the u.n. and the e.u.....

a tough situation....

it`s a replay of iraq....

we are alone..have been for a long time...

seems that we won`t get any cooperation until after the fact....as when saddam invaded kuwait...

only this time,there could be nuclear consequences...

the world will stand by...let israel do what it has to to defend itself...and again be vilified....as they were when they took out saddam`s reactor....

 

[AR182]

i don't know if anybody is a fan of war...but the iran situation is very serious....hopefully the eu & nato will, for a change rise to the occasion....

 

[djv]

And mean while we stand by and do nothing to slow N Korea. They just keep on building. Talks with agreement to place production on hold would be a start. Why wait till it's to late. Doing anything is better then nothing. Leaving it to China is not working.
Iran Kosar always was the big problem. But when you have guys like Rummey and Chenney that Bush only seems to listen to. What would you expect.

 

[Nosigar]

Perhaps our "allies" should help.

Of course, it's an easy scenario, clearly WMD potential present... and yet still no real threats to Iran.

Well, good thing we got troops in Iraq AND Afghanistan.

But in any case we (as a global planet, lol) can dialogue and discuss the issue with the Iranians for another 10 or so years or unil they drop a few bombs around, whichever comes first.

 

[gardenweasel]

yes...we are absolutely hamstrung to act definitely because of iraq......true dat...it`s also accurate to note that the sheer size of iran would make a "one nation" invasion and occupation of iran practically impossible...even if we had let saddam stay in power...

but,i think that iran is literally flipping the u.n. and the e.u.the bird....

they saw how iraq embarrassed the u.n....how toothless and corrupt they are...ran them in circles....

it`s painfully obvious that china and russia`s economic intersts....and their interest in undermining the west......precludes any hope of any real sanctions....

embargoing oil hurts the world as much if not more than iran....unless you embargo food and goods.....which the u.n. and the e.u. won`t do...

bombing might not work because of the depth at which some of the bunkers(that the french and russians helped them build)have been built...

the germans are letting the brutal murderers of americans go free... they`re useless...

a blurb from an editorial page at op jour...

""Thus, even as Iran announced plans to break the IAEA seals on the centrifuges of its Natanz uranium enrichment facility, Austrian Chancellor (and temporary president of the European Union) Wolfgang Sch?ssel warned that "it would be premature to discuss sanctions."" Javier Solana, the EU foreign policy chief, added that “every effort must be made to convince the Iranians to return to the previous situation, to negotiations.” ""

solana’s idea of getting tough with the iranians is apparently to beg them to show up for lunch.....

i shudder to think what a middle eastern nuclear confrontation would mean to the world...

is iranian president ahmanadinnerjacket blowing smoke?......

if you lived in israel....or even jordan or egypt....would you be satisfied rolling the dice?.....considering the consequences if iran isn`t just posturing?...

thank god for the atlantic and pacific oceans...of course,if we aren`t vigilant,as we now know, even that isn`t enough...

 

[gardenweasel]

here`s how i see this situation going down.....if international opinion and the american media browbeats israel into stepping away from the situation....

1)iran will get the bomb

2)mainstream media reassures us that they don't have an i.c.b.m...

3)then they will have an i.c.b.m.and the m.s.m.will say that they don't have enough to be a threat......

4) then they`ll start cranking them out and the m.s.m. willl denounce the u.s. for starting a new arms race.....

5)then there will be a mushroom cloud in israel...or maybe even new york.... and the m.s.m. will ask why we didn't stop them back in 2005....

the end....

 

[Mjolnir]

i find it hard to believe that progressive thinkers wouldnt be upset if things got more tense with iran or n. korea.

 

[djv]

Find it Hard to believe? Not with so many right wingers that think war first. It's funny how they believe you just go to war and all ends well. Thats why were still at war. When has it ever ended. We don't seem to ever be able to find out what really caused it. And do something smart about it to prevent it. Look at our history. Would you really call us a peace loving nation. We always seem to have answers after the war starts or ends. We have had 200 years to learn. Are we really that poor at learning our lessons.
No not all are our fault. But we can still learn.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Right winger?? Who contributed to NK getting Nukes in 1st place with the U.S, footing a lot of the bill? YEp Bill and MadelineNotsobright--Bush doing nothing??--he's hasn't budged an inch to their demands.

Iran?? good point GW-
"but,i think that iran is literally flipping the u.n. and the e.u.the bird...."
If kerry had his way Iraq would still be doing same.

Has it sunk it to anyone on the left that negotions with extremists is a waste of time yet?--as far as Iran it is quite funny in a way to see just how futile these EU/UN have been. Wonder whose thinking I told you so????? I say sit back and watch and let the world see just how resourceful the Kerry/EU approach is--and at the last minute when their shitting in their pants let Isreal do there thing and support them if need be.
Only threat North Korea is selling nukes to Muslims--China will keep them in line--and they are isolated with no allies--they are playing a waiting game there is no possibilty of winning--in next 3 years anyway.

The Eu today after what GW described as Iran saying fck you we'll do what we want--decided that UN sanctions may be necessary--no shit what did GW tell them 2 years ago.

Wonder if maybe --just maybe--they will figure out you can't negotiate with fanatics who will continuelly string you along till someone says enough--as we did in Iraq.

 

[djv]

We may have to learn the hard way we do not rule the world. We can scare countries with our military. Thats all we have left to bang them over there heads. We have no big oil reserves to hold anyone up. As long as India and China need oil good luck with UN. And of course Russia sells them weapons and nuke know how. Again good luck with UN. So we have to fall back on a country not of peace but war because no chance to negotiate?
By the way that N Korea situation was left to get much more out of hand then Bill left it. ZERO for last 4 years.

 

[kosar]

as far as Iran it is quite funny in a way to see just how futile these EU/UN have been. Wonder whose thinking I told you so????? I say sit back and watch and let the world see just how resourceful the Kerry/EU approach is--and at the last minute when their shitting in their pants let Isreal do there thing and support them if need be.

I'm not sure what you suggest we do about Iran. While it might be humorous to you watching negotiations inevitably fail, i'm interested in how you would handle Iran.

We cannot do anything substantial militarily because of the war in Iraq that you have always supported.

Iraq had no nukes, everybody has agreed about that from the beginning. I submit that even if he still had nerve agents from the 80's, who cares? We have shot our wad on a toothless dictator with a 4th rate military who hadn't done anything to us, ever, and had done nothing to any other country in 12 years and he was totally contained.

Us being in Iraq, right next to Iran, is obviously no deterrent whatsoever. If anything, it has emboldened them for two reasons. First, the obvious is that we cannot attack them any time soon. Secondly, they see how much trouble we're having controlling a tiny country that doesn't even have a military that is fighting us. They probably salivate at the thought of a US invasion because then they would have all of the support from every other Islam country in the region who we consider some sort of ally in the 'war on terror.'

Why wouldn't they stay out of this thing in Iraq? We did them a huge favor in getting the secular Saddam out and paving the way for yet another radical Islam government. Saddam was by far their biggest enemy in the region. Hey, thanks America, we appreciate it!

If/when we go to war with Iran, we will be subverted, attacked, etc....by the entire region. It truly becomes a holy war, in their minds. We cannot handle any part of that right now.

As GW correctly points out, invading Iran is not an option as a result of the Iraq war.

And I guarantee that Israel cannot pull another Osirik, so if that is what we're counting on, we're in trouble. That was one reactor, exact location known, above ground.

Iran has an at least 7 plants big enough to be converted for military use eventually, precise locations unknown, buried underground.

Besides that, 5 seconds after the first Israel jet raches Iranian airspace, Iran would send about 5,000 missles into Israel. So then we might be looking at the final countdown and I really believe that.

This is why I don't understand how people can continue to say that this Iraq nonsense was a good idea.

I said it before we even invaded Iraq and I will continue to say that this totally useless war has rendered us toothless for any other concurrent conflict.

That is why we have to sit back and 'laugh' about the UN/EU/Kerry negotiations. We have no leverage. None. And this is for one reason and one reason only. I think everybody can figure it out.

 

[Chadman]

Excellent points, Kosar. Iranian's leader keeps tossing out sound bites to anyone who will take note that taunt the US, Britain and Israel. Do you think that he would continue to do that if not feeling emboldened due to the current situation?

Now, we see Russia hooking up with China for "exercises." We see a new economic/oil partnership between China and India to grab for as much oil as they can get. Economic partnerships generally turn into military partnerships to protect the economies when push comes to shove. We now have Iran trying to use economics and oil in a manner detrimental to the US. And of course the EU being formed years ago to try and make those countries a far bigger player economically in the world scene to rival the super powers. And so it goes.

How do "we" face these issues? By having George W. Bush look like a confrontational idiot at every turn...by traveling abroad criticizing publicly each of these governments (many times in their own country) and their leaders, causing more ill will than ever before.

Economically, our deficits spin out of control. Other countries are thinking of how they can gain inroads by playing around with money reserves and systems. Loaning the US money at pre-Bush unheard of amounts, challenging the US in purchasing oil, etc.

I'd say we might want to take a look at the bigger picture. The world is not waiting on us to fix up Iraq and they are not all welcoming democracy. Quite the contrary. The big boys probably don't like being embarrassed or being told what to do. And they seem to be stepping up the stakes, while we focus on a country that in the big picture never threatened us and will - moving forward, thanks to us - be essentially run by a leadership majority that looks at Iran as being a pretty good way to exist.

So much of this makes no sense. Seriously.

 

[gardenweasel]

i have no idea how to handle iran....i would guess that the only possible answer would be some sort of target bombing to at least delay their nuclear program.....

of course,that would probably draw response from iran on israel....and possibly some of the oil producing regions in iraq...

further destabilizing our democratization efforts there...

or some iranian efforts at closing the straits of hormuz(although that wouldn`t last long)...

they can jack oil prices up,even though we don`t get our oil from them,i don`t think...still,it would affect the market...

and possibly leading to a snowball effect regarding hostilities in the region...

from what i`ve read, the fomentation of unrest and potential regime change from within iran is not realistic...we`ll all die of old age before that happens...


if we hadn`t gone into iraq,and waited...would we invade iran now?..and would invading iran be any different than invading iraq?.....other than being a tougher nut to crack?.....

and what would saddam have done if we`d backed down after he thumbed his nose at us?....would he have sat on his hands as his mortal enemy went hot?....

who believes that?

i was right about one thing...we were going to have to deal with saddam...sooner or later..

what`s really galling is that europe doesn`t get it....the chinese and russians are actively working against us...as probably are the french...

yes..economically they may be benefitting from iran and want to protect them...but allowing ahamadinnerjacket to produce a nuclear weapon is in no one`s long term best interests....

isn`t that obvious to the rest of the world?...

this guy is clearly...and openly...promising armageddon...

i don`t know the answer...but i don`t see how any sane country can be o.k. with iran having a nuclear weapon....

are we hypocrites for being armed to the teeth and saying no to countries like iran and iraq?....

are we hypocrites for not handing the keys to a drunk driver?...

 

[djv]

We should put a heck of a lot more money into our next energy source to get a way from oil. We already pissed away to much in Iraq. But with those oil men we have in power no chance.
Iran is a big problem always was way a head of Iraq as the problem.
Funny how so many Americans new this but our folks in power fell a sleep? Even with that said Iran is going no place for a few years. So let see if we can use our brains and do it right.

 

[gardenweasel]

i totally agree,djv....it`s gonna cost us....a lot...but,it has to be done.....

the sooner the better...