Hiroshima

redsfann

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AS 6-5 said, this moron has the right to post this because there is a bit of free speech left in America.
If you have spent any time at all reading the threads in this forum, you will know that the replys condeming this post have come from all sides of the political spectrum, including the far left now that I have posted...:mj07:
My Great Uncle(now 96 years young) is a highly decorated Navy pilot that fought in the Pacific theater during WWII.
He is a proud and strong liberal and has been all his life and he would be the 1st to tell you that the 1st nuke they dropped was absolutely necessary to end the war. I've read many things in this forum that I have disagreed with, but this one has no peer...
 

shamrock

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Redsfann, just curious, did your uncle know, or fly with Ted Williams, many don't know he was a very very highly decorated marine pilot. Matter of fact, Senator Glen, the astronaut from Ohio was his wing man in WWII.
 

redsfann

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good question, Shamrock. I don't know the answer, but thanks for giving me an excuse to call him. I'll try and reach him this evening and let you know what I find out.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Redsfann, just curious, did your uncle know, or fly with Ted Williams, many don't know he was a very very highly decorated marine pilot. Matter of fact, Senator Glen, the astronaut from Ohio was his wing man in WWII.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Can't answer that one Rock but can confirm Jr flew with the Berkley Brigade on one too many LSD missions :)
 

Happy Hippo

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Killing that many innocent people can NEVER be justified. Perhaps as a woman I feel too much empathy for all the innocent children that were killed. But I have also had some life experiences that have put me into direct contact with war and war criminals. Nothing is ever as black and white as it appears. The enemy has a face too. I completely agree that this is one of the most cowardly acts the U.S. has ever done, and we have done A LOT.

It has been historically controversial as to whether or not Japan was in the process of surrendering at the time the bombs were dropped. And after the first one - WTF???? Come on!!!!

When I was in elementary school, we read Sadako's book and we all made cranes like she did. It was very sad for me... My grandfather was in Japan for WWII and I am very happy and grateful that he returned home safely, but I still feel pain for all the innocent people that we killed.

http://www.sadako.org/sadakostory.htm

Hey - if Iraq had the ability to drop an A-bomb on one of our cities to end an unjustified invasion, it could be logically justified from their perspective. But it still just wouldn't be right, because many people who are living in the U.S. are against the war, just like many living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki surely didn't agree with their governments' actions. I don't think you can justify killing thousands of innocent unknowing people because some other people MIGHT be killed - you can't justify killing from hypothetical situations.

OK - back to my vacation, but this thread struck me the wrong way so I had to chime in and give danmurphy a little support...since the rest of you don't seem to be able to feel sympathy for all these people. I know you all probably think I am crazy, but I don't care - I love being that way! I get to feel all the pain and joy of life!! My curse, my blessing.

"There is nothing heavier than compassion. Not even one's own pain weighs so heavy as the pain one feels for someone, pain intensified by the imagination and prolonged by a hundred echoes." --Milan Kundera
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Compasion is a good thing--however some just have more for their troops and allies than the enemy.

Put things in perspective HH. If you had to make the choice back then--would you rather live with the fact innocent civlians died or you were responsible for the deaths of 200,000 more of our troops that were defending you?
 

smurphy

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Happy Hippo said:
..since the rest of you don't seem to be able to feel sympathy for all these people.
That's not fair. I visited Hiroshima - I cried - I felt nothing but sickness for what happened. But that cowardly act ended the war and saved hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides.

Japan was every bit as out of control as the Nazis. The horrors they committed rivaled that of the worst empire at any time in history. The citizens had no say, no power to stop that war.

Think about it - they didn't even surrender after the first bomb. How f'd up was that leadership? How much did they not care about their people to stick to their suicidal guns even after this super weapon was used.

When they finally did surrender, Hirohito had to broadcast to his nation that he was "not god". That's how dillusional and stubborn that empire was.
 
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Happy Hippo

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smurphy - You are right. I am sorry to make such a sweeping generalization.

I see your points, but it is just so hard for me to think that killing that many people could ever be good. If the citizens had no say and power to stop the war, then killing them is even more unjustified - no? They just had the ill-fate to be born Japanese, I guess. I agree the leadership was totally messed up, and negotiation and diplomacy might not have worked in the end.

I don't know - it is such a terrible thing either way - I can see both points of view...
 

smurphy

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There is definitely debate about how it was handled. Many people feel that FDR had a different plan for bomb - one that involved diplomacy with Japan first - giving them a chance to understand what the weapon could do before using it on them.

But FDR kept Truman out of the loop during developmant. Truman had his own personal issues about wanting respect from the allies - particularly the Soviets. I'm sure part of his thinking was making an impact with Stalin to give us an advantage in post-war negotians. That is kind of disturbing. I guess you could say Hiroshima victims were the first casualties of the Cold War - almost as much as WW2.

Bottom line though, not fully knowing how bad that weapon was and considering how desperate we were to quickly end the war with minimal loss, I can't logically blame our administration for it. I blame Japan for putting us in that position.
 

Pujo21

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Then there is time to bomb SYRIA on the anniversary of Nagasaki. A little chain reaction bomb ought to send a clear message to the murdering jihadists.


AND THERE IS STILL TIME FOR YOU TO RECLAIM YOUR MANHOOD AND TAKE BACK THE SHOWER. DIAL BODYWASH.
time to be a man
:142smilie :mj07:
 

redsfann

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Thanks, Dogs. One of my favorite pictures of my great uncle is of him and his late wife standing in front of his fighter plane on an air field near San Diego. He in his uniform, complete with white neck scarf, her on his arm. They look like movie stars in the picture....:D
 

Terryray

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invasion not the only other option

invasion not the only other option

would it were that simple...

It started with Truman, being forced by reality of politics---untested and unknown---to show his new commitment as President to reiterate the "Unconditional Surrender" pledge. A President with savvy and popularity of FDR coulda sold a conditional surrender to US public. Truman woulda been hanged if he tried.

Unconditional surrender is a very stupid thing fighting folks like Japanese. They figured we'd string up Emperor on lightpole and end country as it exists, and they would fight to utter death to prevent that.


Military folks groan to hear "unconditional surrender". Killing increases exponentially to achieve that last 10%.... If we told Japanese we'd let them keep Emperor and help rebuild country (what we did anyway) the surrender would have come well before any A-bombs dropped. Guaranteed. Almost no historian, or member of Truman and Japanese regime, disputes that.


Then we would have spared deaths of the A-bombs and invasion. (tho more did die in firebombing of Tokyo than either A-bomb drop. Gen Curtis LeMay, who strategized that, admitted later he'd be on trial for war crimes if US had lost, but that's subject for another time...)


Also, there was thought of demostrating the bombs by dropping on some uninhabited island to show Japanese what will happen to them. Many of the scientist at Manhattan Project urged this, but politicians didn't wanna deal with possible failure of bomb (scientist said that might happen) and dropping on people has lots of other strategic benefits, short and long term. smurphy makes some of these points


Eisenhower knew that, didn't like it, and said to his dying days that dropping A-bombs a mistake. He hated the arguably immoral position it inevitably puts US in throught history.


I do think dropping A-bombs was the right course, given the variables----but I think that is a very arguable position, and I don't hold it too strongly...



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smurphy

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Terry, do you know anything about the days between Horishima and Nagasaki? Do you know what the dialogue between the US and Japan was? Do you know why there was no surrender during that time?
 

kcwolf

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As one would expect, times were complicated. Here is a brief picture leading up to surrender:

On July 26, the United States, Britain, and China released the Potsdam Declaration, announcing the terms for Japan's surrender, with the warning, "We will not deviate from them. There are no alternatives. We shall brook no delay."

the elimination "for all time [of] the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest"
the occupation of "points in Japanese territory to be designated by the Allies"
"Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine." As had been announced in the Cairo Declaration in 1943, Japan was to be stripped of her pre-war empire, including Korea and Taiwan, as well as all her recent conquests.
"The Japanese military forces, shall be completely disarmed"
"stern justice shall be meted out to all war criminals, including those who have visited cruelties upon our prisoners"
But on the other hand,

"We do not intend that the Japanese shall be enslaved as a race or destroyed as a nation, ... The Japanese Government shall remove all obstacles to the revival and strengthening of democratic tendencies among the Japanese people. Freedom of speech, of religion, and of thought, as well as respect for the fundamental human rights shall be established."
"Japan shall be permitted to maintain such industries as will sustain her economy and permit the exaction of just reparations in kind, ... Japanese participation in world trade relations shall be permitted."
"The occupying forces of the Allies shall be withdrawn from Japan as soon as these objectives have been accomplished and there has been established in accordance with the freely expressed will of the Japanese people a peacefully inclined and responsible government.
The only mention of "unconditional surrender" came at the end:

"We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction."
Whether the Emperor was of one those who had "misled the people of Japan", or even a war criminal?or potentially part of a "peacefully inclined and responsible government" was left unstated.

On July 27, the Japanese government considered how to respond to the Declaration. The four military members of the Big Six wanted to reject it, but Togo persuaded the cabinet not to do so until he could get a reaction from the Soviets. In a telegram, Kase Shunichi, Japan's ambassador to Switzerland, observed that unconditional surrender applied only to the military and not to the government or the people, and he pleaded that is should be understood that the careful language of Potsdam appeared "to have occasioned a great deal of thought" on the part of the signatory governments?"they seem to have taken pains to save face for us on various points." The next day, Japanese paper reported that the Declaration, the text of which had been broadcast and dropped on leaflets into Japan, had been rejected. In an attempt to manage public perception, Prime Minister Suzuki met with the press, and stated,

"The Joint Proclamation ... is nothing but a rehash of the Cairo Declaration. As for the Government, it does not find any important value in it; the government will just mokusatsu it."
The meaning of the word "mokusatsu", literally "kill with silence", is not precise; it can range from 'ignore' to 'treat with contempt'?which actually described fairly accurately the range of effective reactions within the government. However, Suzuki's statement was taken as a rejection by the press, both in Japan and abroad, and no further statement was made in public or through diplomatic channels to alter this understanding.

On July 30, Ambassador Sato wrote that Stalin was probably talking to the Western Allies about his dealings with Japan.

"There is no alternative but immediate unconditional surrender if we are to prevent [Russia's] participation in the war. ...
Your way of looking at things and the actual condition in [the Soviet Union] may be seen as being completely contradictory."
On August 2, Togo wrote to Sato,

" ... However, it should not be difficult for you to realize that ... our time to proceed with arrangements of ending the war before the enemy lands on the Japanese mainland is limited, on the other hand it is difficult to decide on concrete peace conditions here at home all at once. "
[edit]
Hiroshima, Manchuria, and Nagasaki

The second atomic bomb was dropped on Nagasaki. On the morning of August 6, confused reports reached Tokyo that the city of Hiroshima in southwest Honshu had been the target of an air raid, which had leveled the city with a "blinding flash and violent blast". Later, U.S. President Harry S. Truman's broadcast was received, announcing the first use of an atomic bomb, and promising

"We are now prepared to obliterate rapidly and completely every productive enterprise the Japanese have ...
It was to spare the Japanese from utter destruction that the ultimatum of July 26 was issued at Potsdam. Their leaders promptly rejected that ultimatum. If they do not now accept our terms they may expect a rain of ruin from the air, the like of which has never been seen on earth."
The Japanese knew enough about building an atomic bomb to know how very difficult it would be. (Typically, the Army and Navy had independent atomic-bomb programs.) At first, some refused to believe the Americans could have managed the feat. Admiral Toyoda Soemu, the Chief of the Naval General Staff, argued that even if the Americans had made one, they couldn't have many more. More detailed reports of the unprecedented scale of the destruction at Hiroshima were received, but two days passed before the government met to consider the changed situation.

At 04:00 on August 9, word reached Tokyo that the Soviet Union had broken the neutrality pact, declared war on Japan and launched an invasion of Manchuria. The senior leadership of the Japanese Army took the news in stride, grossly underestimating the scale of the attack. They did start preparations to impose martial law on the nation, with the support of Minister of War Anami, in order to stop anyone attempting to make peace.

The Supreme Council met at 10:30. Prime Minister Suzuki, who had just come from a meeting with the Emperor, said it was impossible to continue the war. Foreign Minister Togo said that they could accept the terms of the Potsdam Declaration, but they needed a guarantee of the Emperor's position. Navy Minister Yonai said that they had to propose something?they could no longer afford to wait for better circumstances. In the middle of the meeting, news arrived that Nagasaki, on the west coast of Kyushu, had been hit by a second atomic bomb. By the time the meeting ended, the Big Six had split 3?3. Suzuki, Togo, and Admiral Yonai favored Togo's one additional condition to Potsdam, while Generals Anami, Umezu, and Admiral Toyoda insisted on three further terms that modified Potsdam: that Japan handle her own disarmament, that Japan deal with any Japanese war criminals, and that there be no occupation of Japan.
 

danmurphy jr

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Between the morning of Aug 6 & Aug 9, there was no dialog between the American & Japanese governments as the radiation and smoke had not settled and there were no Jap reps in Washington.
Granpa's story about hating to do it but we had to, washes in Paducca but that's about all.
Some incredibly intelligent posts here along with the resident rednecks. It's only a guess but Truman would have employed the bomb on Nagasaki if his mother had a lemonade stand there. Even with that, he had no chance of re-election in '48. Guess what?
 

smurphy

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Thanks for that post, kc!
It sounds like the fact that the Soviets were now intering the Pacific war had a big impact in what happened. The Soviets were much more willing to invade.

How much worse off would Japan have been if they were eventually forced to surrender to the US as well as USSR? Could you imagine a divided Japan, like Germany?

The bombs were horrible, but every other scenario for Japan was much worse.
 
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