Time to downsize Rudy 9/11 myth

Chadman

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I figured it was about time for the pumping and demeaning (depending on the party lean) of Giuliani to begin. I think it is widely accepted that he did a great job and is lauded as a leader based on how he lead the city during that horrible timeframe. I really know nothing about it, and have always been curious about what he actually did - good or bad. Just posting this for review and possible discussion. He is talked about as a possible candidate for President, so we may be dealing with this stuff eventually.

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Time to downsize Rudy 9/11 myth
from The New York Daily News

The images and their accompanying story line are, by now, the stuff of legend, seared into memory. Mayor Rudy Giuliani, a lame-duck local pol, becomes the take-charge, already prepared leader of a stunned city and nation on Sept. 11, 2001, striding through the streets of lower Manhattan with his top commanders to rescue, rally and reassure the populace.

Five years later, Giuliani is a pop-culture superhero ("I didn't have time to be afraid, Oprah") and has unabashedly converted 9/11 into wealth, fame and a shot at the White House.

But a new exhaustively researched and unsentimental peek behind the mythology strongly suggests that Giuliani and his top deputies committed many errors that did grave, even fatal, harm to citizens, emergency responders and recovery teams before, on and after that terrible day. Investigative reporters Wayne Barrett and Dan Collins, the co-authors of "Grand Illusion: The Untold Story of Rudy Giuliani and 9/11," think the time has come for the public to trade in myth for some hard, uncomfortable truths.

They could be wrong: Given a choice between a well-told heroic tale and a catalogue of faults, humans instinctively choose fable over facts. But Barrett and Collins hammer away at Giuliani and leave his mythic armor dented.

They tell the story of 9/11 failures like Giuliani's decision to locate the city's command center on the 23rd floor of 7 World Trade Center over the objections of police and fire brass. The bunker went unused, and its 6,000 gallons of fuel may have destroyed the building.

Operational shortcomings like the FDNY's famously obsolete radios get reviewed in detail, along with low-tech communications failures like the creation of separate police and fire command posts at Ground Zero on 9/11, which prevented firefighters from sounding a Mayday evacuation order even after cops saw the south tower fall and began evacuating the north tower 25 minutes before it, too, collapsed.

Giuliani's top team comes in for criticism: Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik essentially served as Giuliani's personal bodyguard on 9/11 instead of running the NYPD. "I don't know who was directing. I literally don't," current Commissioner Raymond Kelly told the authors.

Those failures, perhaps understandable in the chaos of 9/11, are compounded by much less forgivable decisions in the attack's wake. Construction workers and firefighters were allowed to work and eat meals in the still-smoldering ruins without protective respiratory gear despite dire warnings - and as the Daily News has reported, thousands of Ground Zero veterans are now afflicted with upper respiratory illnesses.

Equally inexcusable is Giuliani's rewriting of history to hide his failures. Barrett and Collins describe forum after forum in which the mayor, relying on his mythic glow, says that even obvious mistakes - from the siting of the emergency bunker to the creation of separate police and fire posts on 9/11 - represented wise, intentional strategy. Already, the legend is beginning to fray: The chairmen of the 9/11 commission recently expressed regret at letting America's Mayor off the hook too easily. There will be more such second looks in the future, as America amends the moral of the Giuliani fable to read that even heroes need not be perfect - or pretend to be.
 

SixFive

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I like Rudy, but I think he is pro gun-control. I've never voted for anybody with that stance, so I'd have to research should the time come.:com:
 

danmurphy jr

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He has no chance--zip--nadda to become a presidential candidate. A Supreme Court judge had to order a hooker out of Gracie Mansion while he was still married.
 

bjfinste

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I like Rudy, but I think he is pro gun-control. I've never voted for anybody with that stance, so I'd have to research should the time come.:com:


He's also pro-choice and pro-gay rights. I agree with Dan that he has no chance at getting the nomination, but if he did, I think he'd roll in the general election. Hell, even I'd strongly consider voting for him.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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I can't think of anything he's done that would qualify him IMO. He happened to be mayor of city with tragedy--he handled it much better than Nagin but not sure that counts for anything :)
 

bjfinste

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I found this Rudy quote concerning gun control on multiple websites taken from the March 21, 2000, Boston Globe.

"I do not think the government should cut off the right to bear arms. My position for many years has been that just as a motorist must have a license, a gun owner should be required to have one as well. Anyone wanting to own a gun should have to pass a written exam that shows that they know how to use a gun, that they?re intelligent enough and responsible enough to handle a gun. Should both handgun and rifle owners be licensed...we?re talking about all dangerous weapons."
 

AR182

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I can't think of anything he's done that would qualify him IMO. He happened to be mayor of city with tragedy--he handled it much better than Nagin but not sure that counts for anything :)

dtb....

he cleaned up n.y.c.....dramatically lowering the crime rate....made the times square area attractive again for businesses & tourists....before he was major he worked for the attorney general's office & helped bring down organized crime in ny......

imo, he is very well qualified but unfortunately as dan said he has no chance of getting the republican nomination....he has too many skeletons in his closet....wouldn't mind seeing him start a legitimate 3rd party..

that's too bad because my politics are very similar to his...
 
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bryanz

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I like Rudy, but I think he is pro gun-control. I've never voted for anybody with that stance, so I'd have to research should the time come.:com:

Why do people look at 1 issue ? Even if the next president is pro gun control, it wont change the gun laws . Even if they made a law to take away your gun or guns ,you and others would still own and keep them. Think big picture,don't fall into the trap of single issue voting. Single issue voting and simple minded partisan voting has us we we are. If you own a gun and will cry about someone trying to take it away, you are not willing to use that gun to defend your right to own it and you wouldn't know what to do with a gun any ways. Let's get real, We need to take our heads out of our asses and wake up. Real gun owners don't cry about gun control, you want my gun come get it!
 

SixFive

bonswa
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Mar 12, 2001
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Why do people look at 1 issue ? Even if the next president is pro gun control, it wont change the gun laws . Even if they made a law to take away your gun or guns ,you and others would still own and keep them. Think big picture,don't fall into the trap of single issue voting. Single issue voting and simple minded partisan voting has us we we are. If you own a gun and will cry about someone trying to take it away, you are not willing to use that gun to defend your right to own it and you wouldn't know what to do with a gun any ways. Let's get real, We need to take our heads out of our asses and wake up. Real gun owners don't cry about gun control, you want my gun come get it!


Did I say I was a single issue voter, moron?? I said I think he's pro gun-control, and should he become a candidate, I'd really have to study some more. You're the one who needs to take his head out of his ass. Also, if you don't think I'm a "real gun owner", then you're sadly mistaken and as delusional as I presumed after reading your posts. I've liked what I've seen from Rudy, and I'll have to balance the positives with the negatives like I would any candidate. Pro-choice is also a strike against him, and gay rights are a non-issue to me. your one point I will agree with is simple minded partisan voting. I never vote in this fashion; otherwise I would have pulled the Democratic lever in every election I ever participated in, and I certainly have not done that. :142smilie
 

shamrock

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Aug 12, 2001
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Al is absolutely correct, anyone who knew anything about New York City in the '80s knows Rudy did a outstanding job fixing the disaster left behind by Dickens and Koch.

Few mayors could have done the job Rudy did during 9-11, never mind better. In retrospect it is easy to second guess.

Probably the best reason I respect Rudy, is for giving that Saudi Arabian Scum sucker his 10 million dollar check back, that was classic.
 

bryanz

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I like Rudy, but I think he is pro gun-control. I've never voted for anybody with that stance, so I'd have to research should the time come.:com:

"I've never voted for anybody with that stance." This moron thinks that sounds like single issue voting. I will stand by my post. Real gun owners don't cry about gun control. It's not an issue. All the laws in the world, will not stop a real gun owner from owning a gun.
 
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