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DOGS THAT BARK

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Truth is stranger than fiction-- UBL "was" later offered after he orchestrated attack on Trade towers-and "not" taken by Dems/Clinton--however with his bank roll good chance he would have been pardoned if price was right--if not- no doubt Clintons attorney general would have defended him-again if price was right--

--and "THATS" what got GW elected to 2 terms ;)
 

Chadman

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Truth is stranger than fiction-- UBL "was" later offered after he orchestrated attack on Trade towers-and "not" taken by Dems/Clinton--however with his bank roll good chance he would have been pardoned if price was right--if not- no doubt Clintons attorney general would have defended him-again if price was right--

--and "THATS" what got GW elected to 2 terms ;)

Oh, God, do we have to rehash this one again?!? Say it ain't so. To recap the last rebuttal of said "truth":

He was never seriously offered by anyone that could be considered reputable or responsible with a real offer. Noted by members of both parties then, and now. Except for Wayne and Manson, I guess.

:rolleyes:
 

kosar

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Truth is stranger than fiction-- UBL "was" later offered after he orchestrated attack on Trade towers-and "not" taken by Dems/Clinton


That distortion has been corrected several times on here. I'm not going to bother doing it again, but by all accounts, as weird as it sounds post 9/11, there was not enough evidence to indict Bin Laden for that attack.

Keep in mind, that was 1993 and just 4 short years since we had partnered with him in Afghanistan.

So IOW, Reagan helped him immensely in fighting the USSR in the 80's. Nothing really happens until 1993 and Clinton is supposed to make a case against Bin Laden? A recent 'ally?'

To this day, the evidence is thin that he was behind that first attack.

Of course, he probably was, but, ummmmm, you have to have the goods to prove it and Clinton did not.

It's hard to transport back 13 years to the first WTC attack or the 24 years since Hezbollah blew up 241 marines and Reagan scurried out of Lebanon immediately.

It's hard to transport back 20 years to Rumsfeld & co. partnering up with Saddam against Iran.

Or Carter totally screwing up the hostage crisis.

It is not so simple that somebody offered Bin Laden directly to Clinton and he refused. You already knew that (I think), but you still run this nonsense out there every now and then.

But no comment on the thread starter who posts a totally made up chain email that says North warned everybody in 1987. And other totally false statements.

Spin, spin, spin, Wayne.
 

smurphy

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Blind blind blind.

Take a look at McCaffrey's injury in slow motion. Consider that Colorado went red in 2000. The connections are obvious.

Don't even get me started on JonBenet, CU scandals, and the move to Denver from Leftist Quebec City by the Nordiques.

9-11 may have happened in NYC, but it was the culmination of what went on Colorado for nearly a decade prior.
 

smurphy

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Here you go - his leg is broke before he ever hits anything. There is no coincidence! It's all connected, just use your brain for once instead of buying everything the media feeds you.

ed.jpg
 

Happy Hippo

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:com:

Have you heard about the Denver International Airport???? Don't even get me started...






kurby kurby kurby
 

djv

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Believe it was 1986 The Iran Contra Scandal was under way and found out. People like Hannity and Ann Dip Clouter think he was some kind of hero. He was a liar and law breaker. About 10 years would have been right.
 

Happy Hippo

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That seems kind of random, HH. What do ya got about the airport?

Did you not know that Denver is the home for the New World Order and the aliens who will come to rule us? If there's going to be conspiracies in Denver, then we have to trace them all back to the Masons... I thought you of all people would be up on your conspiracies... :shrug: but I guess smurphy is the real expert in this domain...as he has clearly evidenced through his decisive, concrete and convincing arguments.

25k4vug.jpg

MASONIC CAPSTONE, DIA

25k4zlx.jpg

MURAL, DIA

For further pointless research:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Aurora/4519/dia.html




kurby kurby kurby
 

dr. freeze

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in the 80's Gore was a hawk and knew foreign policy better than anyone in the Senate so i have a hard time believing he didnt know who Bin Laden was nor would he have laughed it off or not been able to pronounce it as he is 20 times more intelligent than Ollie North
 

kosar

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Did you not know that Denver is the home for the New World Order and the aliens who will come to rule us? If there's going to be conspiracies in Denver, then we have to trace them all back to the Masons... I thought you of all people would be up on your conspiracies... :shrug: but I guess smurphy is the real expert in this domain...as he has clearly evidenced through his decisive, concrete and convincing arguments.

25k4vug.jpg

MASONIC CAPSTONE, DIA

25k4zlx.jpg

MURAL, DIA

For further pointless research:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Aurora/4519/dia.html




kurby kurby kurby


lol- no, i've never heard of any of that about the Denver airport being the New World Order ground zero. Is it more of a localized thing?

And I guess you were joking, but I don't believe in any conspiracy about anything.

Seriously, what goes on at Moose Lodge, Elks Lodge or Free Mason meetings? Those sort of organizations.

They always have these run down buildings as 'headquarters' and I guess the members drink beer or whatever, but wtf is their purpose? There's one not far from here (Moose) that advertises on the sign that they serve breakfast, but it's for members only. Ohhhhhh, damn, you mean us plebians can't get some of your nasty breakfast?

They wear hats and pins and shit, I know that, but how do you get in and what do they do?
 

kosar

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in the 80's Gore was a hawk and knew foreign policy better than anyone in the Senate so i have a hard time believing he didnt know who Bin Laden was nor would he have laughed it off or not been able to pronounce it as he is 20 times more intelligent than Ollie North

What does this post even mean? Bin Laden was our ally in the 80's.

The original post in this thread is altogether false so I have no idea wtf you're talking about regarding Gore or anything else.
 

Happy Hippo

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lol- no, i've never heard of any of that about the Denver airport being the New World Order ground zero. Is it more of a localized thing?

And I guess you were joking, but I don't believe in any conspiracy about anything.

Seriously, what goes on at Moose Lodge, Elks Lodge or Free Mason meetings? Those sort of organizations.

They always have these run down buildings as 'headquarters' and I guess the members drink beer or whatever, but wtf is their purpose? There's one not far from here (Moose) that advertises on the sign that they serve breakfast, but it's for members only. Ohhhhhh, damn, you mean us plebians can't get some of your nasty breakfast?

They wear hats and pins and shit, I know that, but how do you get in and what do they do?

Unfortunately, it is not localized, as we have no idea where the aliens will come from.

I myself have always wondered what goes on in these meetings - there is a "temple" in Boulder that has no windows - I never see anyone come in or out...I've always wanted to go in...but what would happen to me? :shrug: Would they let me in? Would I disappear in a cloud of masonic glory?






And yes, I was joking (about a number of things...), although I have met a number of people over my years (especially in Taos with the cattle mutilations...let's not even go there) who believe in the aliens... the southwest is full of alien-believers... :com:
 
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kosar

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although I have met a number of people over my years (especially in Taos with the cattle mutilations...let's not even go there) who believe in the aliens... the southwest is full of alien-believers... :com:

The f*ck is the mutilation of cattle all about and how does it relate to aliens? Yes, I would like to go there.

Did you know that AR182 has lived in the southwest for many years? Certain things are coming together.
 

smurphy

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Hippo, thanks for adding important info confirming conspiracies relating to Colorado.

Perhaps the aliens help fill in some of the fuzzy parts around McCaffrey's broken leg. I would not be surprised if the same invisible chupacabra-like alien that kills cattle is what Bin Laden and Clinton hired to attack Ed. ....Like Kosar says, it's coming together.

Let's also remember, the very same Denver -Giants matchup was in the SB the year the Iran-Contra stuff broke. Some things are just way too coincidental to not have relevance.
 

Happy Hippo

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Cattle Mutilations:

The cows are found dead (although the cause of death is undetermined), exsanguinated (all their blood has been removed). Precise "laser-precision" cuts are observed in the mutilated cattle. They have had certain organs surgically removed from their bodies. Often their reproductive and rectal organs have been removed. [By aliens, of course]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_mutilation

The FBI does have a file on this...and they have strangely been unable to identify the offenders - it is hard to track down our space friends, though. Now that Pluto has been downgraded to a "dwarf" from a "planet", it may get even harder.

It is all coming together - I don't believe in coincidences. They do walk among us - most of us just don't notice. I wonder who else was at the game that day...

25khaf7.gif
 

kosar

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Cattle Mutilations:

The cows are found dead (although the cause of death is undetermined), exsanguinated (all their blood has been removed). Precise "laser-precision" cuts are observed in the mutilated cattle. They have had certain organs surgically removed from their bodies. Often their reproductive and rectal organs have been removed. [By aliens, of course]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle_mutilation

The FBI does have a file on this...and they have strangely been unable to identify the offenders - it is hard to track down our space friends, though. Now that Pluto has been downgraded to a "dwarf" from a "planet", it may get even harder.

It is all coming together - I don't believe in coincidences. They do walk among us - most of us just don't notice. I wonder who else was at the game that day...

25khaf7.gif


I've always suspected that Sam Cassell was some sort of alien being. This confirms it, perhaps.
 

smurphy

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- it is hard to track down our space friends, though. Now that Pluto has been downgraded to a "dwarf" from a "planet", it may get even harder.

Yeah, no shlt. What a slap in the face to Pluto. How can we expect to have diplomacy with the Plutonis when we disrespect them like that. I have problems with their religious and birthing practices, but we need to deal with them pragmatically. They've always been a key strategic ally in that region of Milky Way. DUMB move on our part.
 

AR182

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Did you know that AR182 has lived in the southwest for many years? Certain things are coming together.


it's funny that you mention this....

when i lived in ny for most i my life i never met anybody who told me they believe in aliens or had spotted flying saucers...

since i've been living in arizona (13 years) it seems that i have met somebody almost every other week who have told me that they have seen flying saucers....

i once got rather annoyed at one of these alien viewers & asked him...."how come people in the southwest are the only ones who have seen flying saucers, while nobody that i know back east has seen any ?"....i went on & asked him..."is it because the saucers don't want to get stuck in traffic or that they don't have enough change for the meters ?"....believe it or not this guy answered me by saying.."i don't know".....before i walked away from him i said..."just what i thought". in case anybody was interested.... let me be the first one here to say that people are stranger in the southwest than the northeast....
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Chad and Matt Iwe went through this before--lets clear up the air --one last time on taking UBL when we had the chance--I don't think the other two issues of pardons or Ramsey Clake defending Saddam are in question--are they.

Here is Mansoors detailed -not he said she said- description that names names-places and times.
If you doubt it show where any involved have denied it.

POLITICIZED INTELLIGENCE
The 9/11 Commission's Achilles heel.
by Mansoor Ijaz
National Review Online
April 15, 2004
The independent 9/11 Commission investigating the intelligence failures that preceded the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States has not done enough to shed light in its hearings during the past month on the most critical problems facing America's system of predicting and protecting against external threats. The commission's blue-ribbon panel seems unable ? perhaps even unwilling ? to ask tough questions about how good intelligence was politicized, how bad intelligence was used to make worse policy, and how policymakers' egos and personal career agendas interfered with the development of prudent national-security strategies to deal with the growing threat of militant Islam's terrorist front.

Analyzing these areas can reveal more about how the 9/11 attacks became possible than any assessment of which committee or working group met when, and who did or did not attend, or how high a "wall" was built to make sure the American judicial system functioned properly. The Clinton administration's stormy relations with Sudan illustrate the gaping holes in the commission's important work with distressing clarity.

On the central point of contention, whether Sudan offered to extradite archterrorist Osama bin Laden to the United States in 1996 before his al Qaeda militants became an organized global threat, the commission's staff report said: "Former Sudanese officials claim that Sudan offered to expel bin Laden to the United States. Clinton administration officials deny ever receiving such an offer." Taken individually, both statements are probably accurate. But the gap left between what the commission wants ordinary Americans to believe by its deftly crafted statement, and the truth of what happened at that time is wide enough to drive a tractor-trailer through it.

Rosslyn, Virginia, March 3, 1996. In late 1995, CIA Director John Deutsch withdrew over 100 fabricated intelligence reports on Sudan's alleged terrorist threats against U.S. diplomats, spies, and their children in Khartoum. In January 1996, Secretary of State Warren Christopher ordered the U.S. embassy in Khartoum closed on the basis of that bad intelligence over the objections of US Ambassador Tim Carney. On March 3, 1996, Sudan's defense minister El Fatih Erwa secretly met Carney, State Department official David Shinn, and a senior CIA Africa officer at a Rosslyn, Virginia, hotel. After receiving a list of eight demands from the CIA, of which providing detailed intelligence data and assessments on bin Laden and his al Qaeda followers was number two, Erwa reiterated Sudan's offer to extradite bin Laden to Saudi Arabia. Carney had received a similar proposal during his Khartoum exit interview with Sudan's foreign minister a month earlier. President Clinton, hoping the Saudi king would take bin Laden back and swiftly behead him, called Saudi Arabia's intelligence chief, Prince Turki bin Faisal, to vet the proposal. The Saudis said no, again. Erwa asked for a second meeting five days later.

Alexandria, Virginia, March 8, 1996. With only Erwa and the CIA Africa officer present during the second meeting, Sudan first offered to increase surveillance and hand over intelligence on bin Laden and his associates. Deemed insufficient to reflect the hard line Washington wanted to take with Sudan, Erwa made another offer. He told the CIA officer that if the U.S. could show cause through an indictment that bin Laden was complicit in or guilty of committing terrorist acts against Americans and the Justice Department was willing to try him on U.S. soil, Sudan would hand him over to U.S. authorities. The CIA officer's account of this meeting matches Erwa's and has been recounted in Richard Miniter's New York Times bestseller, Losing Bin Laden. There is no question that a prima facia offer was made. The question is how was it handled by the U.S. government's various organs once it was made.

Where is the gap of understanding in what the commission reported to the American people and what really happened? Nothing less than the very failure the commission was charged with trying to uncover, understand, and prevent in the future. An intelligence officer of the U.S. government received the offer, not a political official from the Clinton administration. The CIA officer was neither empowered to respond, nor inclined to take a controversial, perhaps not believable proposal from the representative of a pariah state to his superiors whom he knew were engaged in a war of words with the Clinton White House at the time. The offer was, quite literally, left on the table in that Virginia hotel room.

President Bill Clinton admitted the legal dilemma he faced in bringing bin Laden to the U.S., thereby implicitly admitting that some kind of an offer had been made, at a February 2002 business luncheon on Long Island when he said "At the time, 1996, he [bin Laden] had committed no crime against America, so I did not bring him here because we had no basis on which to hold him, though we knew he wanted to commit crimes against America. So I pleaded with the Saudis to take him, 'cause they could have. But they thought it [the bin Laden issue] was a hot potato and they didn't and that's how he wound up in Afghanistan".

Former National Security Advisor Sandy Berger echoed Clinton's views earlier in an October 3, 2001, Washington Post interview with Barton Gellman when he said: "The FBI did not believe we had enough evidence to indict bin Laden at that time and therefore opposed bringing him to the United States."

A fundamental breakdown in communications and strategic planning occurred between the CIA and the FBI on one side and the Clinton White House, National Security Council, State Department, and Justice Department on the other. Moreover, the failure was political, of a president who shunned the intelligence briefs and factual data American taxpayers paid him to look at, analyze, debate, and question. His apathy translated into either crystallized hard-line positions taken by advisers he didn't bother to communicate with, or in equally apathetic aides busy handling problems deemed a higher priority by the administration's senior ranks.

Over the next four years, the failures ? and their consequences ? only got worse.

Khartoum, April 19, 1997. After eight months of negotiations and countless dinners of Nile perch and soggy French fries, I persuaded Sudan's president, Omar Hasan el Bashir, to make an unconditional offer to share Sudan's intelligence data with the FBI and CIA. The offer, made at my request directly to the 9/11 Commission's vice chairman, former Congressman Lee Hamilton (D., Ind.), sat in limbo for months. Hamilton personally discussed the offer with Berger and Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, with little effect.

In late May 1997, I met Clinton at a private function in Washington and asked him why the U.S. was not willing to take the Sudanese up on getting intelligence that we now know contained data on two of the 9/11 hijackers and members of their support cell in Hamburg, as well as three of the suspects who bombed the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in August 1998. His response, which included a flippant remark about bin Laden, clearly indicated he neither understood the nature nor magnitude of the threat al Qaeda posed at that time, nor did he particularly see the value in the Sudanese offer.

Washington, September 28, 1997. Despite Clinton's apathy, the U.S. government undertook an interagency review on whether to act on Sudan's offer. After five months of wrangling and policy reassessments, the Clinton administration decided to return its diplomats to Khartoum to "...investigate human rights abuses, monitor and encourage peace talks between the Government and a rebel army operating in the southern Sudan, and to push Khartoum to fulfill its recent public promises to oppose terrorism...." The State Department spokesperson cited Albright's direct intervention as the deciding factor in accepting the offer.

Richard Clarke, then counterterrorism coordinator, and Susan Rice, Albright's incoming assistant secretary for East Africa known for her strong anti-Sudan views, immediately confronted Berger to reverse the decision. Angry that Albright did not consult him before moving ahead, Berger sided with his deputies and forced the decision to look at Sudan's intelligence files to be overturned three days later on October 1, 1997. Politicization indeed. To this day, none of the officials involved have been asked how or why three individuals with decidedly anti-Sudan feelings could overturn a deliberative decision of the entire U.S. government's interagency review process. Sadly, the 9/11 commissioners failed to ask this question of any witness as well.

Khartoum, February 5, 1998. After the political track broke down in October 1997 and it became clear no political reconciliation was possible with the Clinton administration's Sudan hardliners, Sudan's intelligence chief, Gutbi al-Mahdi, wrote directly to the FBI in a final attempt to share intelligence data. He reasoned that theoretically, the FBI could not be pressured or interfered with by the U.S. government's executive branch. He was wrong.

At around the same time in mid-February 1998, bin Laden's key Sudan deputy traveled to Baghdad to meet Saddam's intelligence chief. The Clinton White House was aware of both developments. It chose not to stop the Iraqi-al Qaeda meeting, but blocked without delay the FBI from traveling to Khartoum to view critical intelligence data. U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were attacked six weeks after the FBI sent its June 24, 1998, letter stating it was "...not in a position to accept your [Sudan's] kind offer" to share intelligence.

Khartoum, August 8, 1998. A day after the U.S. embassies were bombed, two of the key suspected planners, Sayyid Nazir Abbass and Sayyid Iskandar Sayyid Suliman, landed in Khartoum with fake Pakistani passports. Sudanese intelligence immediately got in touch with the FBI, put the suspects ? who had taken up residence in an apartment opposite the U.S. embassy in Khartoum ? under surveillance and asked FBI officials for further instructions. The Sudanese intelligence chief even sent a handwritten note to the FBI director asking for guidance. The U.S. responded on August 20, 1998 ? with a cruise-missile attack against the al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant that the Clinton administration incorrectly assessed was producing VX nerve gas precursors. The two suspects fled to Pakistan.

Politicizing American intelligence had reached its zenith in the Sudan case. Richard Clarke said in a January 23, 1999, interview with the Washington Post that intelligence existed to link bin Laden to al-Shifa's owners, Iraqi nerve gas producing agents and the National Islamic Front, Sudan's ruling junta. Last month, in a 60 Minutes interview, Clarke said, "...there's absolutely no evidence that Iraq was supporting al Qaeda. Ever." It is precisely such contradictions that are intolerable in the search for truth on how 9/11 could have occurred.

The 9/11 Commission has only scratched the surface of these failures. It owes the families of the victims who died on that sunny morning in September a deeper and more thoughtful analysis of what happened that is not only devoid of partisanship and political rancor, but also more replete with an examination of political motive and how intelligence was used.

When I testify under oath on May 7, 2004, in private with the commission's staff and commissioners, I will certainly bring these issues to light. The question is whether the American people will be allowed to see that light, and to transparently understand that what allowed terrorists to believe they could attack us on our own soil was not just a structural intelligence failure, but a failure at the highest levels of America's political policymaking apparatus.

Let us hope the commission's final recommendations reflect this finding as well.

? Mansoor Ijaz negotiated Sudan's offer to share intelligence data on Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda to the Clinton administration in April 1997 and co-authored the blueprint for the militant ceasefire in Kashmir in summer 2000. He is chairman of Crescent Investment Management in New York.
 
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