Great article

kosar

Centrist
Forum Member
Nov 27, 1999
11,112
55
0
ft myers, fl
By a conservative author writing in a conservative paper. (NY Post)

Sums it up PERFECTLY.


August 24, 2006 -- WITH the best intentions, President Bush recently declared that it's racist to say that Arabs can't build democracies.
Is it?

I made the same claim in the run-up to the first Iraqi elections, when Western leftists desperate for Iraq to fail tried to block the vote by claiming that the population wasn't ready.

Iraqis deserved their chance. They got it. They voted. Three times. Each time along confessional or ethnic lines. They elected ward bosses, not national leaders. We could have skipped the balloting and apportioned legislative seats by population shares.

Iraq doesn't have a democracy in any meaningful sense. It isn't even a nation. Iraqis didn't vote for freedom. They voted for revenge against each other.

In the immediate aftermath of Operation Iraqi Freedom, I argued that the only realistic solution was to break Iraq into three pieces. What we lacked the guts to do, elections have done. The pretense that an Iraqi national identity exists or ever will exist can be sustained no longer.

Iraq doesn't have a government. It has a collection of warlords, demagogues and thieves with official titles. It's time to put our own politics aside and face reality: If Iraq's elected leaders won't stop looting their country long enough to pull together and defeat the foreign terrorists, internal insurgents and militias killing Iraqis, we should not ask our troops to defend them.

Iraqi democracy hasn't yet failed entirely. But it looks as if it might. President Bush needs to face that possibility. Managing the regional and global consequences will be his responsibility. We will have to fight on elsewhere - with more realism and, regrettably, less idealism. The fools who hope Iraq will fail will face more wars, not fewer.

Meanwhile, the test for Iraq's elected government is straightforward: Can it excite Iraqis to a spirit of mortal sacrifice in defense of a constitutional system? The terrorists, insurgents and militiamen will die for their beliefs. If other Iraqis will not risk their lives - in decisive numbers - to seize their unique chance at freedom, there is no hope.

And Iraq is the entire Arab world's last hope.

As for the charge of racism leveled at skeptics of the Arab propensity for democracy, it would be true if the discussion were about individuals. Arabs in the United States are as capable of functioning within a democratic system as anyone else. They're just as American as any other citizens - because their families escaped the Middle East.

Arab states are another story: Their social, political, economic and cultural structures leave them catastrophically uncompetitive with the developed world. Societies divided down the middle by religion, inhibited by tribal loyalties and conditioned to accept corruption can't build healthy democracies.

Above all, societies and cultures that refuse to accept responsibility for their own failures can't build democracies.

As difficult as it can be to discern in the hype-and-gripe Internet age, our own system works because we shoulder the burden of our errors, seek to understand what went wrong - and fix the problem (the same may be said of Israel, the only successful democracy in the Middle East).

A culture of blame prevents moral, social and political progress. This is a self-help universe. The nonsensical Arab insistence that all Arab problems are the fault of America and Israel (or the Crusades) ignores the fact that Arab civilization has been in decline for 700 years - and has been in utter disarray for the last 200.

This is a homemade failure. Through their own choices, cherished beliefs, values and norms, Arabs have condemned themselves to strategic incompetence. No society that oppresses women, denies advancement on merit even to men, indulges in fantastic hypocrisy, wallows in corruption, undervalues secular learning, reduces its god to a nasty disciplinarian and comforts itself with conspiracy theories will ever compete with us.

The question has been asked before: Despite the massive influx of petrodollars over a half-century, where are the great Arab universities, the research institutes, the cutting-edge industries, the efficient, humane governments, the enlightened societies? The Arab world has behaved as irresponsibly as a drunk who won the lottery, squandering vast wealth and creating nothing beyond a few urban theme parks.

Even the seeming bright spots, such as Lebanon, aren't true democracies. The Lebanese voted for clans, tribes and faiths, not for policies and programs. The Gulf emirates are mere playgrounds for Saudi debauchees and face the rise of a nuclear Iran. In Saudi Arabia, religious hatred has long surpassed oil as the number one export.

Surely, if Arab societies were capable of producing and sustaining democracies, we would see at least one. Where are the massive rallies in favor of tolerance, that indispensable lubricant of democracy? Where are the militias fighting for constitutional government? Where are the insurgencies demanding female enfranchisement?

It would be racist to claim that Arabs are genetically inferior. It is simply the truth to admit that Arab societies are volatile disasters.

Arab terrorism isn't about redressing wrongs. It's about revenge on a successful civilization that left the dungeon-cultures of the Middle East in the dust.

We've done what we could in Iraq, and we've done it nobly. We should not withdraw our troops precipitously, but the clock is ticking. It's now up to the Iraqis to succeed - or become yet another pathetic Arab failure. If Iraqis are unwilling to grasp the opportunity our soldiers and Marines bought them with American blood, it's their tragedy, not ours.

We did the right thing by deposing Saddam Hussein. The Arab Middle East needed one last chance. Iraq is it. If Iraqi democracy fails, there will be no hope, whatsoever, for the Arab world.

Ralph Peters' latest book is "Never Quit the Fight."
 
  • Like
Reactions: lostinamerica

kosar

Centrist
Forum Member
Nov 27, 1999
11,112
55
0
ft myers, fl
Just six months ago, Ralph Peters (conservative author above) wrote this.

Things are NOT getting better.


March 5, 2006 -- BAGHDAD

I'M trying. I've been trying all week. The other day, I drove another 30 miles or so on the streets and alleys of Baghdad. I'm looking for the civil war that The New York Times declared. And I just can't find it.

Maybe actually being on the ground in Iraq prevents me from seeing it. Perhaps the view's clearer from Manhattan. It could be that my background as an intelligence officer didn't give me the right skills.



And riding around with the U.S. Army, looking at things first-hand, is certainly a technique to which The New York Times wouldn't stoop in such an hour of crisis.

Let me tell you what I saw anyway. Rolling with the "instant Infantry" gunners of the 1st Platoon of Bravo Battery, 4-320 Field Artillery, I saw children and teenagers in a Shia slum jumping up and down and cheering our troops as they drove by. Cheering our troops.

All day - and it was a long day - we drove through Shia and Sunni neighborhoods. Everywhere, the reception was warm. No violence. None.

And no hostility toward our troops. Iraqis went out of their way to tell us we were welcome.

Instead of a civil war, something very different happened because of the bombing of the Golden Mosque in Samarra. The fanatic attempt to stir up Sunni-vs.-Shia strife, and the subsequent spate of violent attacks, caused popular support for the U.S. presence to spike upward.

Think Abu Musab al-Zarqawi intended that?

In place of the civil war that elements in our media declared, I saw full streets, open shops, traffic jams, donkey carts, Muslim holiday flags - and children everywhere, waving as our Humvees passed. Even the clouds of dust we stirred up didn't deter them. And the presence of children in the streets is the best possible indicator of a low threat level.

Southeast Baghdad, at least, was happy to see our troops.

And we didn't just drive past them. First Lt. Clenn Frost, the platoon leader, took every opportunity to dismount and mingle with the people. Women brought their children out of their compound gates to say hello. A local sheik spontaneously invited us into his garden for colas and sesame biscuits.

It wasn't the Age of Aquarius. The people had serious concerns. And security was No. 1. They wanted the Americans to crack down harder on the foreign terrorists and to disarm the local militias. Iraqis don't like and don't support the militias, Shia or Sunni, which are nothing more than armed gangs.

Help's on the way, if slowly. The Iraqi Army has confounded its Western critics, performing extremely well last week. And the people trust their new army to an encouraging degree. The Iraqi police aren't all the way there yet, and the population doesn't yet have much confidence in them. But all of this takes time.

And even the police are making progress. We took a team of them with us so they could train beside our troops. We visited a Public Order Battalion - a gendarmerie outfit - that reeked of sloth and carelessness. But the regular Iraqi Police outfit down the road proved surprisingly enthusiastic and professional. It's just an uneven, difficult, frustrating process.

So what did I learn from a day in the dust and muck of Baghdad's less-desirable boroughs? As the long winter twilight faded into haze and the fires of the busy shawarma stands blazed in the fresh night, I felt that Iraq was headed, however awkwardly, in the right direction.

The country may still see a civil war one day. But not just yet, thanks. Violence continues. A roadside bomb was found in the next sector to the west. There will be more deaths, including some of our own troops. But Baghdad's vibrant life has not been killed. And the people of Iraq just might surprise us all.

So why were we told that Iraq was irreversibly in the throes of civil war when it wasn't remotely true? I think the answers are straightforward. First, of course, some parties in the West are anxious to believe the worst about Iraq. They've staked their reputations on Iraq's failure.

But there's no way we can let irresponsible journalists off the hook - or their parent organizations. Many journalists are, indeed, brave and conscientious; yet some in Baghdad - working for "prestigious" publications - aren't out on the city streets the way they pretend to be.

They're safe in their enclaves, protected by hired guns, complaining that it's too dangerous out on the streets. They're only in Baghdad for the byline, and they might as well let their Iraqi employees phone it in to the States. Whenever you see a column filed from Baghdad by a semi-celeb journalist with a "contribution" by a local Iraqi, it means this: The Iraqi went out and got the story, while the journalist stayed in his or her room.

And the Iraqi stringers have cracked the code: The Americans don't pay for good news. So they exaggerate the bad.

And some of them have agendas of their own.

A few days ago, a wild claim that the Baghdad morgue held 1,300 bodies was treated as Gospel truth. Yet Iraqis exaggerate madly and often have partisan interests. Did any Western reporter go to that morgue and count the bodies - a rough count would have done it - before telling the world the news?

I doubt it.

If reporters really care, it's easy to get out on the streets of Baghdad. The 506th Infantry Regiment - and other great military units - will take journalists on their patrols virtually anywhere in the city. Our troops are great to work with. (Of course, there's the danger of becoming infected with patriot- ism . . .)

I'm just afraid that some of our journalists don't want to know the truth anymore.

For me, though, memories of Baghdad will be the cannoneers of the 1st Platoon walking the dusty, reeking alleys of Baghdad. I'll recall 1st Lt. Frost conducting diplomacy with the locals and leading his men through a date-palm grove in a search for insurgent mortar sites.

I'll remember that lieutenant investigating the murder of a Sunni mullah during last week's disturbances, cracking down on black-marketers, checking up on sewer construction, reassuring citizens - and generally doing the job of a lieutenant-colonel in peacetime.

Oh, and I'll remember those "radical Shias" cheering our patrol as we passed by.

Ralph Peters is reporting from Forward Operating Base Loyalty, where he's been riding with the 506th Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division.
 

djv

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 4, 2000
13,817
17
0
Confusing at times. I do know unless the video was doc-ter up. Last month there were over 200000 in the streets in Baghdad burning our flag saying go home. And hundreds are dieing each week including some of our own.
 

ImFeklhr

Raconteur
Forum Member
Oct 3, 2005
4,585
129
0
San Francisco
Children waving at humvees. Who cares?

My 7 year old cousin gives me the thumbs up when I'm going All-In on 7/2 off-suit.

:shrug: :shrug:
 

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,485
161
63
Bowling Green Ky
Is pretty good article Matt--I think the 2nd one might be somewhat misleading--as all references are to Baghdad--which is like day and night from majority of country.

Most media has predominantly news relating to Baghdad because that is where all the"exciting" news is occuring.

As in U.S. if its crime you want to hear about you go to the getto's not the suburbs.
 

kosar

Centrist
Forum Member
Nov 27, 1999
11,112
55
0
ft myers, fl
-I think the 2nd one might be somewhat misleading--as all references are to Baghdad--which is like day and night from majority of country.

I agree that the second one was misleading. It painted a very rosy picture of Baghdad. Did you even read it?

I posted the second one to show this same authors point of view just a few months ago compared to today.

Most people are finally coming around, including conservatives and Bush apologists.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,485
161
63
Bowling Green Ky
Yep I read it Matt--I referred to reporting of most media in 2nd paragraph--perhaps should have said 99% of all media --and somewhat understandibly so--don't know if its things are that mundane or reporters don't want to venture out that far from green zone--but there are 10 or so providences out of 18 I have never heard any reporting on since beginning of war.
 

Nick Douglas

Registered User
Forum Member
Oct 31, 2000
3,688
15
0
48
Los Angeles, CA, USA
He still comes off as utterly clueless even in this most recent article. I supposed since the end (retreat from Iraq) justifies the means (utter misunderstanding of Islamic problems), it can be taken as a good sign. Peraonally, I'd rather see more conservatives wake up and at least attempt to understand our problems in Iraq.
 

kosar

Centrist
Forum Member
Nov 27, 1999
11,112
55
0
ft myers, fl
He still comes off as utterly clueless even in this most recent article. I supposed since the end (retreat from Iraq) justifies the means (utter misunderstanding of Islamic problems), it can be taken as a good sign. Peraonally, I'd rather see more conservatives wake up and at least attempt to understand our problems in Iraq.

I'd be interested in what you find 'utterly clueless' in the recent article.
 

djv

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 4, 2000
13,817
17
0
I think main point is very clear. In fact you here some conservatives congressman who want to win this fall running in that direction away from Bush. They should lose for sure. They used the other side of story to get elected 2 years ago. Now voters should see through there ploy and send them home.
 

Nick Douglas

Registered User
Forum Member
Oct 31, 2000
3,688
15
0
48
Los Angeles, CA, USA
Totally clueless on Iraq being the "last hope". Totally clueless on the reason for "terrorism". Totally clueless in that he groups Islamic movements like Iran and Hizbullah in with terribly corrupt governments like Saudi Arabia.

The bottom line is that he comes off like just another conservative moron who sees our failure in Iraq as the United States doing the right thing but running into the problem of trying to help people who don't want to be helped.
 

gardenweasel

el guapo
Forum Member
Jan 10, 2002
40,575
226
63
"the bunker"
Totally clueless on Iraq being the "last hope". Totally clueless on the reason for "terrorism". Totally clueless in that he groups Islamic movements like Iran and Hizbullah in with terribly corrupt governments like Saudi Arabia.

The bottom line is that he comes off like just another conservative moron who sees our failure in Iraq as the United States doing the right thing but running into the problem of trying to help people who don't want to be helped.

where to start.....

nick..."Totally clueless in that he groups Islamic movements like Iran and Hizbullah in with terribly corrupt governments like Saudi Arabia."

so,iran and hezbollah are "islamic groups".....and saudi arabia is a corrupt gov`t......

hmmmmm...no saudi fan,but,that`s an odd statement there my man....

in the short term,i`m a little more concerned with iran and hezbollah...make that the long term,too...

lets talk again when iran finishes with their manhattan project...

as for the reason for terrorism,it`s pretty obvious..... they resist modernity...they wish to keep a whole religion of people,willing or not,subjugated...convert or die....from muslims,to christians to hindus to jews........

liberals defending islam?....there`s a contradiction....lets gibbet a few homos in the park....or rape a few women...it`s fun..and nearly impossible to be punished for...

""ISLAMABAD (AFP) - Pakistani opposition lawmakers walked out of federal parliament in protest at government proposed amendments to Islamic rape laws.

Rights groups have been demanding the government repeal the current laws which place an almost impossible burden of proof on women and expose victims to charges of adultery.

Opposition MPs mostly from the hardline Islamic alliance Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal shouted slogans and tore up copies of the bill before walking out after Law Minister Wasi Zafar introduced the legislation to change the laws.

“Death to (President Pervez) Musharraf,” “Those who are friends of America are traitors” and “Allah is Great,” the politicians shouted.

“This bill is against Holy Koran and Shariah, we reject it and (will) try to block it in any possible manner,” said opposition leader Maulana Fazalur Rehman.""

those are your oppressed heros,nick...

....yet,they flock to western societies,one would think,to escape unheard of tribalism,barbarity,inhumanity,religious oppression,bigotry and human rights abuses.....only to try and convert the host nations into the private hell from whence they came...

look around the world...so many places that had nothing to do with the u.s. or iraq...all facing islamic terrorism....

it`s a worldwide phenomenon....and the 12th imam is readier that punxatawny phil to stick his head out of that hole....

iraq didn`t start it...and iraq won`t end it....no matter how it plays out...

""The bottom line is that he comes off like just another conservative moron who sees our failure in Iraq as the United States doing the right thing but running into the problem of trying to help people who don't want to be helped."


according to who,nick?...the minority sunnis?....i`m sure that the shia and the kurds....the majority....are fairly happy that saddam`s gone........

given your rationale,south africa should have been left alone.......
 

kosar

Centrist
Forum Member
Nov 27, 1999
11,112
55
0
ft myers, fl
Totally clueless on Iraq being the "last hope". Totally clueless on the reason for "terrorism". Totally clueless in that he groups Islamic movements like Iran and Hizbullah in with terribly corrupt governments like Saudi Arabia.

The bottom line is that he comes off like just another conservative moron who sees our failure in Iraq as the United States doing the right thing but running into the problem of trying to help people who don't want to be helped.

Ridiculous. All the way around.

GW covered much of it, but if you can't see that Iraq is the last hope, then there's not much I can say. Granted, it's not much of a hope, but I totally agree that pretty/very soon we need to shift gears and try to break that country up into 3 parts. That is a longshot also, but continuing on like this has NO shot.

Islamic 'movements' like Iran and Hezbollah? That says it all.

You read here enough i'm sure to know that i'm probably one of the strongest against the Iraq occupation and have been since before the implementation of this impossible undertaking.

However, I also remember you, along with Nolan, basically blaming America for 9/11 right after it happened.

Here's the bottom line: we could have done anything that Iran/Bin Laden etc wanted regarding removing our military presence in the region pre- 9/11 and everything alse and it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference.

Nothing will ever change over there and the Iraq bullshit only served the purposes of the extremists over there. That's what pisses me off so much about it. That's it's taken thousands of lives, billions of dollars, 10's of thousands of maimings to strengthen the radical element.

Something is upside down here, and it's not only you.
 

maverick2112

Registered User
Forum Member
Jan 16, 2001
2,967
5
38
Wyoming
"look around the world...so many places that had nothing to do with the u.s. or iraq...all facing islamic terrorism...."

Where exactly is all this islamic terrorism taking place ???? Just curious????
 

gardenweasel

el guapo
Forum Member
Jan 10, 2002
40,575
226
63
"the bunker"
maverick....recent stuff...


The Country of Malaysia: Slowly Spiraling Into An Islamic Nation....
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/600uiclz.asp

Serbian Bar Bombed in Kosovo... http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=193538604&p=y935393yx

17 Dead in Suicide Bombing at an Afghan Marketplace... http://english.bna.bh/?ID=49582

Muslim Rebels Attack Philippine Village...http://rawstory.com/news/2006/Muslim_rebel_killed_two_hurt_in_att_08282006.html


Slavic Converts to Islam Pose Threat to Russia...http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/08/1051A2C7-C5F1-44CE-BB7A-A4D3488155B6.html

Foiled Pakistani Terrorists had High Hopes for Mumbai...http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1049135

Man Killed, Carved Up in Thailand
http://nationmultimedia.com/2006/08/29/headlines/headlines_30012232.php

Germany: Lebanese Muslim Detained In Bomb Probe
http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/002821.html

The Country of Malaysia: Slowly Spiraling Into An Islamic Nation. http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/08/28/news/letter.php

bombings in india....genocide in darfur....plots foiled to blow up parliament in ottawa canada(ottawa?....that really blows my mind) mind)...england.... australia...

massacre`s in sudan,somalia,madrid,bali,besla.....

and this is just a fraction..

very scary stuff...
 

djv

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 4, 2000
13,817
17
0
GW your List and Mavricks question brings out a good point. None of the above really have much to do with us. Much of it on going for years. No connection to false hoods of Iraq. Many are splinter groups that ar not even tied together with our worst enemy BIN. And yet US knowing he's still the guy we don't even look for him like we started out to do. Kosar As for Iraq. I agree with Binden we may having nothing to lose by splitting it into three. It's really down to only two left. The Kurds already are acting very independent and going there own direction.
 

AR182

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 9, 2000
18,654
87
0
Scottsdale,AZ
i always enjoyed listening to peters...think he knows what he's talking about.

if anybody else has listened to him...doesn't he sound like peter lorre ?
 

gardenweasel

el guapo
Forum Member
Jan 10, 2002
40,575
226
63
"the bunker"
peter lorre.....i`ll never forget....."the beast with five fingers"

DER HAND!!!....DER HAND!!!!(the word "the" gave lorre problems)... .......:scared

classic stuff....
 
  • Like
Reactions: AR182

kosar

Centrist
Forum Member
Nov 27, 1999
11,112
55
0
ft myers, fl
Only 54 more 'liberated' civilians blown up today in Iraq. 12 of them killed by a new tactic, the good ol' trusty bicycle bomb. WTF?
 

djv

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 4, 2000
13,817
17
0
bicycles, baby carriages, Men, Woman, cars, Road side bomb's that look like paper bags. Any thing seems to go. Children might be next. Can you see it. A 7 year old walking up to 5 of our men and good by. And that ant stretching it. Tanks, F-16, B -2's. Our 135000 soldiers are just targets. And can not win that type of action with that type of equipment.
 
Bet on MyBookie
Top