Congratulations to the Democrats on getting something done on Immigration

[Chadman]

Hey, AR...did you see weasel tell me to shut my gob? Just referencing it for you...lol.

Interesting that after watching him ignore direct questions and comments about other issues here, he makes a comment that "when pigs fly" I'll have something substantive to add to this discussion. Considering the content of the majority of posts you make around here, I feel a lot better about myself. I have plenty of common sense opinions to add - generally without ripping and ridiculing those I try to discuss with - unlike, um, who? Oh yeah...your rip people and namecall and then come back and say, "hey, take a joke, lighten up", etc. I have a busy week, and wanted to take some time to look at this, and you say I have nothing substantive to add, and that you've been researching it? I guess you haven't been researching much in several other threads, cause you're way behind in the tally around here.

For the record, you have some good points here. But I get tired of eternal criticism when people try to accomplish something. Easy to rip, when all you do is stand by and attack. I'll try to come up with something "substantive", I guess, and watch you ignore it - again. Peace, brothel.

 

[AR182]

no i didn't see it....

gw.....

:nono:


how's that ?......lol

 

[Chadman]

Here's a couple off the cuff remarks, trying to add something substantive to the equation for my watchers...

I think this is going to be a real firestorm issue for a long time to come. I think the Bush administration has to be loving this, as it detracts attention from the war in Iraq, although Dubbya will have some 'splainin' to do to many of his supporters (you can see it in this forum alone). I wonder if he understands this dilemma a lot better than many, due to his time in Texas, but I don't know. I wonder if he is behind this mainly because he genuinely cares about the immediate economic impact to kicking out millions of workers - yes, I said workers - or if it is more political for big business who we should all know likes to have these folks on their payroll (or taking cash without being on the payroll), and possible voting scenarios.

I think this will be a huge voter recruiting scenario for the democrats...I can understand conservative/republican concerns about that - and I think that's an understandable complaint. Although, you sleep in the bed you make, and the old hand up theory only extends so far these days.

I think smurph has a great point, and one I mirror, that some progress towards more secure borders and addressing people who are already here - getting them to pay their fair share, finding out who they are and where they are, etc., is a good thing.

I hope this massive bill is discussed and looked at fully, and I think all of you who feel strongly about it should contact your legislators early and often and try to represent yourself. I know for a fact that these people (most of them, anyway) will listen to public opinion in at least figuring out a position to take.

Now, some negatives. Why have we only built a 2 mile stretch of fence so far? Was my early take on this republican legislation that it was a complete joke and a lucrative payday for some contractors and will never accomplish much of anything? Please, prove me wrong on that, because I think this is an important point on who cares about securing borders and following through.

What illegal alien head of household (or whatever they are) is going to come forward if not provoked by his/her employer to pay back taxes, a $5,000 fine, and return to their home country to wait to be allowed back in from some list? I don't see a lot of probability in that.

I think that any legislation that goes HARD after employers who hire illegals is a GREAT thing. If you cut off the motivation to hire these people, essentially rewarding them financially for paying cheaper wages and not matching those funds to the government, then you will cut off a lot of the problem. You round up these employers on a one week blitz, plaster that all over the news, and you've done some good.

Later.

 

[AR182]

Here's a couple off the cuff remarks, trying to add something substantive to the equation for my watchers...

I think this is going to be a real firestorm issue for a long time to come. I think the Bush administration has to be loving this, as it detracts attention from the war in Iraq, although Dubbya will have some 'splainin' to do to many of his supporters (you can see it in this forum alone). I wonder if he understands this dilemma a lot better than many, due to his time in Texas, but I don't know. I wonder if he is behind this mainly because he genuinely cares about the immediate economic impact to kicking out millions of workers - yes, I said workers - or if it is more political for big business who we should all know likes to have these folks on their payroll (or taking cash without being on the payroll), and possible voting scenarios.

I think this will be a huge voter recruiting scenario for the democrats...I can understand conservative/republican concerns about that - and I think that's an understandable complaint. Although, you sleep in the bed you make, and the old hand up theory only extends so far these days.

I think smurph has a great point, and one I mirror, that some progress towards more secure borders and addressing people who are already here - getting them to pay their fair share, finding out who they are and where they are, etc., is a good thing.

I hope this massive bill is discussed and looked at fully, and I think all of you who feel strongly about it should contact your legislators early and often and try to represent yourself. I know for a fact that these people (most of them, anyway) will listen to public opinion in at least figuring out a position to take.

Now, some negatives. Why have we only built a 2 mile stretch of fence so far? Was my early take on this republican legislation that it was a complete joke and a lucrative payday for some contractors and will never accomplish much of anything? Please, prove me wrong on that, because I think this is an important point on who cares about securing borders and following through.

What illegal alien head of household (or whatever they are) is going to come forward if not provoked by his/her employer to pay back taxes, a $5,000 fine, and return to their home country to wait to be allowed back in from some list? I don't see a lot of probability in that.

I think that any legislation that goes HARD after employers who hire illegals is a GREAT thing. If you cut off the motivation to hire these people, essentially rewarding them financially for paying cheaper wages and not matching those funds to the government, then you will cut off a lot of the problem. You round up these employers on a one week blitz, plaster that all over the news, and you've done some good.

Later.

very good post chad...

let me see if i can respond to your post paragraph by paragraph....

imo,the bush administration is going to be based solely on the iraq war. i think there are a few reasons why bush is behind this.....leagacy...all presidents like to leave something positive for the american people & i think the bush backers will point to this.

i agree....i heard some people say that this will create a singular party in america....

please delete the part where you say that smurphy has a great point....it's just going to make him more impossible than usual to be around & he is going to demand an increase in his allowance, which i can't afford since i'm on a fix income.

i can't contact my representative because he can't read.

i didn't know that only a few miles has been built.....i'm not surprised by this because of the beauocracy that is involved.

i agree i don't see the illegals coughing up the $5000 either or going back to their countries...

i'm all for the gov't going hard after the employers who hire illegals...but it's going to put a burden on cities like vegas who hire a lot of illegals to take care of maintenance & housekeeping. i hate to think of a guy like steve wynn making beds. but i am for the crackdown on illegals being hired.

 

[The Sponge]

The Republican Party is on the eve of destruction with this bill

This bill will turn 20 million illegals into 100 million in a flash.

They will laugh at Americans because they will work for at least $ 5 an hour less..they will take many many many jobs from Americans.

George Bush has his pen ready and is not screaming veto, how come?

He is out to bust unions and the middle class working people so that they work for low wages too.

[/

On March 9th a piece of legislation passed the house to help insure clean drinking water and good jobs for union carpenters. The measure would authorize 14 billion over the next four years for the clean water state revolving fund, which provides low interest loans to businesses and municipalities for construction and repaor of wastewater systems and sewage infrastructure. That would mean thousands of jobs for UBC memebers.
president Bush has threatened to veto the bill because it contains Davis Bacon provisions that ensure that prevailing wages are paid to workers on federally funded projects.
The bill passed the House by a veto proof 303-108 margin. Seventy nine republicans voted for this bill.
President bush has threatened to veto the recently passed clean water legislation because the measure contains Davis Bacon projections, which critics say adds to the cost of a project by increasing labor cost.
However several studies have shown that labor cost have, at best,only a small effect on the cost of large infrastructure projects and that paying prevailing wages attract workers with more experience and training.
The resulting greater productivity reduces the number of hours needed to finish the project making the prevailing wage provisions negligible.

Now you tell me why this anti american president is so hell bent on breaking american workers wages when his own party is going along with this? To think he has compassion for this immigrant bill and doesn't see cheap wages as his whole reason to sign it which he loves to high heavens, is crazy.

 

[Terryray]

The Davis-Bacon Act is pure pork for unions, it (therefore) hurts American workers as a whole, and is one of the most anti-black laws on our books. I am embarassed to be the citizen of a nation that has laws such as these.

 

[The Sponge]

The Davis-Bacon Act is pure pork for unions, it (therefore) hurts American workers as a whole, and is one of the most anti-black laws on our books. I am embarassed to be the citizen of a nation that has laws such as these.

bullshit. Go work in a field and go finish a bunch of unqualified workers work because somebody wanted to save a dime. That is when it cost money. Terray i havent heard you once worrying about no bid contracts and here is how most work like in New Orleans. You bid 2 billion. Have your president wave Davis bacon laws now you sub the work out for 1 billion and you wash your hands of it with a billion profit. Now the next guy probably does it to. Finally the guy who has to do the work hires the bottom of the barrel and you have a poorly built project that most likely doesn't get finished. Its live and in color right in New Orleans with a bunch of immigrants who also got stiffed and no where to go. You guys who just love corporate greed or just don't understand the game they play but want to kill our very own peoples wages are really strange. Lets just keep pouring Billions into Iraq with nobody looking. Plus nobody saying anything. The racial part of that post is very comical. Never heard that one. I guess i will ask a few of the black union carpenters if they feel the same way.

 

[smurphy]

You can laugh Smurph but you'll be the generation hit the hardest when the chickens come home to roost and you will be forced to live with your convictions.

I'll go back to statement I told DJV after 2000 elections--just wait 16 years and it will be next to impossible for GOP to win national election.

I'll give you a little incite on the future by 2016 minorities will be approaching the majority--the 80/20 rule that was constant for decades and now 70/30 will approach 50/50. You will have half of citizens supporting the remaining.

The dems will have and auto 20 million spot on all national elections from minorities making the U.S. for all practicle purposes a one party country.

The price for welfare (most going to low income people--not unemployed) ssn-medicare/medicade will be horrific.

---and who will be footing these bills?? Not my generation of babyboomers--as you will be footing our bills also.

This is basically the same scare-tactic rhetoric used against every wave of immigration. Yet somehow the country gets stronger and better all the time.

It's interesting that a champion of market economy such as yourself takes this position against immigration. You CONSTANTLY brag about how healthy the economy is and how the governement needs to leave things alone. I would have thought you'd be for open borders and as much imported labor as the job market can handle. Why is it that you've taken a detour away from your normal view about jobs and the economy on this issue?

I do laugh at your comment about the Statue of Liberty being too politically correct. That's funny stuff.:mj07:

 

[smurphy]

please delete the part where you say that smurphy has a great point....it's just going to make him more impossible than usual to be around & he is going to demand an increase in his allowance, which i can't afford since i'm on a fix income.

You are absolutely correct.

i'm all for the gov't going hard after the employers who hire illegals...but it's going to put a burden on cities like vegas who hire a lot of illegals to take care of maintenance & housekeeping. i hate to think of a guy like steve wynn making beds. but i am for the crackdown on illegals being hired.

Your worried about just Vegas? Your city is probably as reliant on this labor force as any in the country.

 

[AR182]

Your worried about just Vegas? Your city is probably as reliant on this labor force as any in the country.

that's true but i don't feel like changing the linen when i'm on vacation....lol

 

[djv]

Dem's do something. Yes just what Bush wanted. If there willing to be tough on Iraq war with Bush Would have liked to see more balls on this subject.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Not a scare tactic Smurph--

Consider in 2004 there were 131,113,969 total tax returns filed of these 42,545,501(32.4%) had no tax liabilty--then add to that the people that filed no tax return.

Now add what ever # you deem reasonable to increase of illegals and others on these non tax payors you will be footing the bill for.

--The 32.4% non payor level was 1st hit in 2004 following the tax break (for the rich) as Dems would hace you believe.

However a family with 3 children making $40,000 a year in reality not only had 0 liabilty but a $1,500
"Refundable" Credit after 2004.

Now do you really think the babyboomers holding most the wealth and are starting to now reach retirement are going to continue to foot the bills.

---and on the one party system coming consider these #'s---then add the 10,000,000 of the liberal tax payors who let the PC glasses cloud their vision on what is coming

"When we combine the populations of non-payers and non-filers and look to see what overall percentage of each group is not paying taxes, we find that: 50.7 percent of African American households pay no income taxes, 35.5 percent of Asian American households do not, 37.6 percent of White American households do not, and roughly 52 percent of Hispanics pay no income taxes."

--and on an added note--not trying to score politcal points here as I believe to late too reverse the inevitable.

All data above taken from the Tax Foundation
http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/542.html

 

[smurphy]

Yet the economy, as you always point out, is doing great. Which is it, Dogs - are we doomed or not? ...I'm not going into detail on your numbers AGAIN. We've been over that and over that. ..Also it's very interesting that this 32.4% that you find so alarming has gotten that way during the Bush years. As we discussed, very few people are actually on welfare anymore. Could it be that when you make $7-$10 an hour, there's nothing left for governement? And maybe we have record numbers of people (many of them dreaded Black and Mexican folk that I know you'd prefer off the continent) working those jobs?

TRUST ME - If given the option, ANYONE would rather make 45 grand a year and give some of that to the government than make 20 grand a year with nothing left over. It's not like poor people are screwing the country or anything. You can't pay what you don't have.

You never answered my question about your stance on the market economy. Why do you stray from your normal view when it comes to immigrant labor filling low level jobs in our capitalist system? Why is this suddenly bad, contrary to everything else you always talk about. ...You were even ready to sell our ports to the lowest bidder, remember?

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

"Also it's very interesting that this 32.4% that you find so alarming has gotten that way during the Bush years."

is interesting as I said since only the rich got any tax braks--per some

Wefare as it was called has dimiinished but was replace by Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) and that along entitlement programs medicade-medicare-snn make up about half of our budget--as I stated above--wait a few years till we baby boomers quit paying and start collecting--what % of your check will it take then.
--on economy --your going to force me to make case for tax cut--which I don't believe had that much impact--

however common sense would tell me the more buyers there are for goods legal-illegal or foreign--the better the economy--however can see it having little to do with personal taxes other than paying less(or none) gives em more to spend.

As long as employment rates are @ 5% the economy with do ok barring disasters--however what happens when you load more into population that --that pay no or little taxes but use welfare and healthcare and school system on your dime?

 

[smurphy]

I'll ask you one more time - why do you deviate from your normal free market economy position when it comes to immigrant labor supplying the job demand in our capitalist system?

These other problems of the future you mention ....they are there regardless of immigration. In fact, if immigranats are the only ones growing a young population base, then they are the only hope of getting us adequate numbers of people to pay for the baby boomers.

I don't know why you put in bold stuff about 'my dime' and paycheck and stuff, because I really don't care. I'm not selfish. I'm a lucky person and have no problem sharing. Anything I make over a certain, fairly modest amount I'm more than happy to essentially "give away". But that's just me. Anyway, you can't scare me with these worst case scenarios of the future.

This thread is about the immigration bill, not taxes anyway. Stay on topic and answer the damn question.

 

[gardenweasel]

chad...i apologize for telling you to shut your gob.....

that was a bit nasty...and i regret it....even though you did jump me a bit in your preceding panel.....

my bad....

btw....why are you tattling on me to smurph`s dad?....

he`s one of my fave`s but i doubt that he needs this kind of grief....

he has his hands full as it is with the pup...

 

[Chadman]

Actually, after as much as I've called both you and Wayne out lately, I think you were right to tell me to shut my gob...lol. I do have some personal crap going on right now, and I am a little less "cool" than normal. Sorry for calling you guys out all the time - even though you two have been hiding more lately...:moon:

As for tattling on you to AR, just referring to his post a while back saying that you never speak negatively/name call/something or othere to others. Just rekindling that, no biggie, not important. AR does seem to be the conscience of the board, I feel compelled to report things to him...

I do really think this is going to be quite a story for a long time to come, though, seriously. This story alone could spur on a 3rd party candidate or thrust an outspoken republican (true conservative) to make a run on the Republican primaries. Gingrich has seized on this issue and is running wild with it of late - heard him and Hannity have a love fest on Hannity's radio show the other day.

 

[smurphy]

... I am a little less "cool" than normal.

NO! Keep up the good work, I say. Now THAT'S the sign of a nice guy - the other guy tells him to shut up, yet he ends up apologizing for not being cool. Maybe Chadman is TOO nice.:nono:

 

[AR182]

chad...i apologize for telling you to shut your gob.....

that was a bit nasty...and i regret it....even though you did jump me a bit in your preceding panel.....

my bad....

btw....why are you tattling on me to smurph`s dad?....

he`s one of my fave`s but i doubt that he needs this kind of grief....

he has his hands full as it is with the pup...

i'm trying to get him to stay a week with you & a week with dtb & to come back a better man...but he'd rather stay with that hooligan in florida...

 

[smurphy]

i'm trying to get him to stay a week with you & a week with dtb & to come back a better man...but he'd rather stay with that hooligan in florida...

It's called "living". The hooligan knows how to party.