Healthcare in America, Canada's way

Spytheweb

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Toronto -- Discovering he had colon cancer came as a shock to John Kioussis, but after 10 days in the hospital, attended by a battery of medical specialists, technicians, nurses and other staff, his bill came to less than $85 in American dollars -- and that was only for his phone and cable TV.

Under Canada's government-funded health insurance system, Kioussis' care, from the first visit to a family doctor, through visits to two specialists of his choice and his hospital stay, was free, paid for by Ontario's publicly funded universal health coverage.

"When you're sick like that and off work, the last thing you want to worry about is how to pay the bill," said Kioussis, 55. "I had excellent care and one of the top specialists in the country, the same doctor who would treat the prime minister."

That's the side of Canadian health care familiar to many Americans -- a system that provides free cradle-to-grave treatment to all, regardless of income or employment status.

The fact is, though, that Canada's system is riddled with problems, many stemming from inadequate funding. As a result, delays of several months are common before seeing a specialist or getting nonemergency surgery.

For his part, Kioussis said the month he waited between seeing his family doctor and his surgery did not seem unreasonable. He admitted, though, that because of a personal connection between his brother and the surgeon, the doctor operated on him just before he left for vacation.

Although delays and other problems have caused support to dip slightly, Canadians still overwhelmingly back their universal health program. They think of their health care system as a mark of their national identity, something that separates them from Americans.

Meanwhile, a recent ABC News poll showed that while Americans value the quality of U.S. health care, 62 percent think the nation should shift to a universal health insurance program like Canada's.

As a result of the sharply differing approaches Canada and the United States have taken toward financing health care, their medical systems have developed in contrasting ways.

The United States has more hospital beds per person than Canada because most American hospitals are private, while almost all Canadian hospitals are publicly funded. As a result, American hospitals compete for patients, while Canadian hospitals "don't fund excess capacity," said Sharon Sholzberg-Gray, chief executive of the Canadian Healthcare Association.

By many measures, Canadians are healthier than Americans, with a longer lifespan and lower infant mortality, even though they spend much less on medical care. Canadians devote about 10 percent of their gross domestic product, the total of a nation's goods and services, to provide full health coverage for all citizens. American health costs account for about 14 percent of GDP, yet 45 million Americans have no health insurance and many more have limited coverage.

One of the main culprits pushing up the cost of care in the United States is the expense of administering a plethora of complicated health plans. It has been estimated that any large health insurer in a midsize U.S. state spends more on administration than is spent on health administration in all Canada.

Dr. Catherine Kurosu is a gynecologist at two San Diego hospitals. A Canadian, she said the biggest differences between the two systems are that poorer Americans won't seek medical care until their problems have become serious. In addition, she said, American insurers often play games to avoid paying bills.

In San Diego, a lot of pregnant women -- especially illegal immigrants -- show up with problems that could have been avoided with prenatal care, she said. The idea that they can't get this kind of care "still seems foreign to me," she said.

"My patients are always interested in finding out about the health care system when they find out I'm Canadian," she continued.

When it comes to billing, the Canadian system is a simple matter of sending an invoice to the Ministry of Health, which pays on a fee-for-service basis, she explained. In the United States, there are so many insurance companies, each with its own rules covering not only the patient but also the doctor -- as Kurosu learned when she had to wait months for an insurance company to approve her.

U.S. health insurers nickel and dime doctors by always sending bills back and questioning everything, she said. "It's like a game to see how long they can forestall payment."

Eleven years ago, Colleen Burns started a medical imaging business in Buffalo, N.Y., right across the border from Ontario. She expected 20 percent of her business would come from Canadians willing to pay $300 to $600 in U.S. for quicker access to high-tech diagnostics. Instead, the proportion is only about 8 to 10 percent, she said.

Canadians need to feel a sense of urgency and have the money before coming to the United States, "because they can get an MRI for free in Canada," she said.

The health system is now itself in need of emergency care in order to continue offering the benefits Canadians have come to think of as their birthright, according to many experts.

Dr. Albert Schumacher, president of the Canadian Medical Association, warns that shortfalls of cash and medical staff have left the system unsustainable without major reform.

Twenty years ago, Canada's federal government unified the various health insurance programs run by the provinces.

Ottawa offered to pay 50 percent of the programs' operating budgets, provided the provincial plans accepted five basic principles, including nationwide acceptance of each provincial plan, comprehensive coverage and no out-of-pocket costs (co-payments or deductibles) for insured services.

"But since then, the federal share has dropped to as low as 14 percent," said Schumacher, a family physician from the border city of Windsor, Ontario.

In the 1990s, Canadian governments at all levels began attacking their budget deficits with single-minded intensity. With health care accounting for about 40 percent of public sector spending, hospitals were closed, physician fees were frozen or cut, nurses were laid off, and spaces for medical students and medical technicians at government-funded universities and colleges were cut back.

Along with a money crunch, Canada "has a terrible shortage of physicians, " particularly specialists and surgeons, a high proportion of whom are over 55 and ready to retire, Schumacher said.

Fixing the health care system has become a high priority for Canada's political leaders.

Last month, Prime Minister Paul Martin made good on his main election promise to inject more cash into provincial health programs and move to shorten waiting lists.

At a national health care summit, Martin told provincial leaders Ottawa would ante up the equivalent of an additional $34 billion in U.S. funds over 10 years to provincial and territorial health programs, as well as an additional $3 billion to ease wait times for hip replacement surgeries, cardiac and cancer treatments. He also agreed to a plan for monitoring waiting lists to determine the best method of reducing them.

As in the United States, the main problems bedeviling Canada are the soaring cost of prescription drugs and an aging population. Canada's provinces had called on Ottawa to use its hefty budgetary surplus to launch a national drug plan and leave to them the remaining health care costs, including home care and services like psychiatry and chiropractics.

But during the summit, provincial leaders abandoned that effort in exchange for more overall funding from Ottawa.

Sholzberg-Gray of the Canadian Healthcare Association said another challenge plaguing the Canadian system is the drain of doctors and nurses lured by higher pay and lower taxes in the United States.

"There is also a circular effect, because some doctors come back so they don't have to collect bills," she added.

On the issue of waiting lists for nonemergency surgery, Sholzberg-Gray believes the federal government should establish time limits for treatment.

One feature of Canada's health care system is that if someone wants to bypass the public program and, for example, pay a doctor to perform hip replacement surgery after hours, he cannot. Because of fears that slipping the doctor a little something extra could lead to the breakdown of the equal- access-for-all principle, paying for insured services is illegal.

Those who believe that more private care clinics would solve the problem of funding and shortages have taken their case to Canada's Supreme Court in an effort to open the system.
 

The Sponge

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im not positive on this but it seems spy is posting stuff that has been posted before and even by him. Maybe its rerun week. The George Bush employmnet with the Carlye group looked like something i read before.:shrug: unless its sweeps week?:shrug:
 

Chadman

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Doc, saw a recent story that 60% of doctors now favor some kind of universal health care - reason being that they spend so much time now with paperwork, insurance, legal issues, etc. Don't remember where I saw it, nor a link, just wondering what you think about that? Do you think that doctors in general favor some revamping of the system, or do they not?

(Not looking for political tirades here to explode this thread, just wondering from Doc).
 

Spytheweb

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The reason i post healthcare stories is because the issue is still there. People are still losing their homes because of medical bills. People pay more into the US medical system than anyone else, and get less.
 

Spytheweb

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Published on Tuesday, April 1, 2008 by Reuters
Doctors Support Universal Health Care: Survey
by Maggie Fox

WASHINGTON - More than half of U.S. doctors now favor switching to a national health care plan and fewer than a third oppose the idea, according to a survey published on Monday.0401 06

The survey suggests that opinions have changed substantially since the last survey in 2002 and as the country debates serious changes to the health care system.

Of more than 2,000 doctors surveyed, 59 percent said they support legislation to establish a national health insurance program, while 32 percent said they opposed it, researchers reported in the journal Annals of Internal Medicine.

The 2002 survey found that 49 percent of physicians supported national health insurance and 40 percent opposed it.

?Many claim to speak for physicians and represent their views. We asked doctors directly and found that, contrary to conventional wisdom, most doctors support national health insurance,? said Dr. Aaron Carroll of the Indiana University School of Medicine, who led the study.

?As doctors, we find that our patients suffer because of increasing deductibles, co-payments, and restrictions on patient care,? said Dr. Ronald Ackermann, who worked on the study with Carroll. ?More and more, physicians are turning to national health insurance as a solution to this problem.?

PATCHWORK

The United States has no single organized health care system. Instead it relies on a patchwork of insurance provided by the federal and state governments to the elderly, poor, disabled and to some children, along with private insurance and employer-sponsored plans.

Many other countries have national plans, including Britain, France and Canada, and several studies have shown the United States spends more per capita on health care, without achieving better results for patients.

An estimated 47 million people have no insurance coverage at all, meaning they must pay out of their pockets for health care or skip it.

Contenders in the election for president in November all have proposed various changes, but none of the major party candidates has called for a fully national health plan.

Insurance companies, retailers and other employers have joined forces with unions and other interest groups to propose their own plans.

?Across the board, more physicians feel that our fragmented and for-profit insurance system is obstructing good patient care, and a majority now support national insurance as the remedy,? Ackermann said in a statement.

The Indiana survey found that 83 percent of psychiatrists, 69 percent of emergency medicine specialists, 65 percent of pediatricians, 64 percent of internists, 60 percent of family physicians and 55 percent of general surgeons favor a national health insurance plan.

The researchers said they believe the survey was representative of the 800,000 U.S. medical doctors.
 

BUCSnotYUCKS

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The reason i post healthcare stories is because the issue is still there. People are still losing their homes because of medical bills. People pay more into the US medical system than anyone else, and get less.

I could go on and on forever on this issue.

Very interesting that you post this. I was just talking about this the other day with my professor in class. I'm on your side with this. This is the response I provided in my essay.

Americans do things so ass backwards in that we wait until something is a problem, then we try to fix it. Medicare worked years ago, and is anyone trying to retract on it? No, because it's a good thing.

Some tool box in class thought that if the Government stopped taxing the Insurance companies that the companies would probably lower their rates.

My response was first a chuckle, then, "You've got a better chance of the companies lowering the rates then the government stop taxing."

Some people are so blind and ignorant on this issue it's not even funny.

Almost 60% of doctors are in favor of some sort of health care provided by the government. However, we got idiot doctors out there in the cosmetics field that are against it. It'll kill them.

The government should just tax the people on their work wages, a flat rate. Everyone should be provided with the same health care as the next joe blow down the street. Too much is hindered on age, sex, race, ethnicity, and most importantly, your social status.

America is on a crash course for disaster. The world is never gonna be the same LOL
 
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escarzamd

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Chad, I commented before that I am on board w/ a single-payer program. It might actually make my life a lot more simple. Its an ideal that most everybody you speak with will agree to, at least on some level. However,reality rears its ugly head attempting to put such a system into practice. I don't want to hash out the same points over and over, but without an overhaul of the cost of care, then all of our well-meaning rhetoric about right v. privelege, our moral obligation, etc. is just rhetoric.

The average bear never breaks down the process towards a single-player program. "Just do it"........but how do we get all the players to the table?

Hospitals? They would be all for eliminating the generally byzantine paperwork process behind billing for services. That would most assuredly reduce cost. What I don't know is if single-payer could continue to support the size of the current infrastructure.

Doctors? Same boat. Where the rubber meets the road, we really don't particularly enjoy any aspect of the business beyond actually delivery of care. The multitude of factors beyond history/physical/diagnostic testing/appropriate advice or treatment take up (my guess) 80% of the time and effort involved in the process. Take the rest out of the encounter, and by itself thats good for the soul. This might even have the added benefit of helping recruitment. Students don't think medicine is all that attractive these days, largely b/c of the delayed gratification of the education process plus the nature of the business, as it were.

Insurance? They might even like it. The gov't can't really pay the whole tab, so in exchange for tax-incentives (ie health insurance "middle men" become "not-for-profit" entities contracted by the feds) they may help carry their share. This of course is a fantastical statement, clearly made for the benefit of discussion.

Industry (in general)? I'm sure they would love it on the front side, not having insurance plans for employees on their rolls.

Pharma? Can anybody think of a reason they would like it? I can't even think of one right now. Need help here.

Malpractice? Do you apply tort-reform on a national level? Change the way cases are heard, so that malpractice decisions are decided by a jury of peers, instead of the current civil suit process? I don't think thats too attractive to this end of he business.

Patients? Absolutely love the idea of "free" health-care for every one.......until you find out who's really going to pay the bills.

These are just talking points pared down for simplicity. Now start weaving all the webs tying each players' agendas together. Who really pays for it? 60% of the nation is on gov't rolls already at astronomical cost......now add everybody. Britain,Canada, France, Germany, et al don't have annoying expenses like a Defense Dept budget to account for, and they're taxes are pretty impressive. Plus, not a single program has been effective enough to keep costs down. They all have to come up with new ways to fund the program or cut cost and benfits every year. The sheer number of patients today vs. 70yrs ago has tripled. How do you pay the MDs? Fee for service? Pay for performance? Cap it like Canada, and then run into access issues when those same MDs go on vacation from August until January b/c who would work for free in their right mind? Do you make training cheaper so as to adequately maintain supply? And what about the supply of nurses, skilled radiology techs, resiratory and physcal therapists?.......because that number is 10 times the number of MDs. Then the government has to restrict the rights of the insurance, pharmaceutical, med tech suppliers to practice the're business in a free market. Then the patient culture has to accept certain premises of the system, like waiting 4 weeks for care they can get today by walking into an ED. Remember, we have a whole hell of a lot more patients than the countries employing single-payer systems. Can cost restrictions allow for the number of hospitals as it is today? What if smaller entities can't stay open? Prop them up like BearStearns? Make the patients drive an hour to the nearest facility? Make half the system like VA hospitals (thats gone well!) ? What about patients rights to sue for malpractice? Who are they going to sue.......the MD or their employer? What are the lawyers going to say about having to argue their case to 12 doctors instead of civilians? Better bring a little more to that table. What about restricting pharm costs? Who's going to subsidize continued R & D of newer meds, because that will drop to nothing if their profits are eaten into by any cost restriction you desire, whether thats decreasing the length of exclusivity in patents, or having a national preferred med list, or whatever (not really my area).

I have to go to work. I have some better posts that are more clear regarding this topic. This one is written poorly.......but its confusing for the purpose of illustrating that its one thing to say you're going to dunk the basketball, and it another thing entirely to actually do it. Hope it stimulates some discussion.
 

EXTRAPOLATER

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Of more than 2,000 doctors surveyed, 59 percent said they support legislation to establish a national health insurance program, while 32 percent said they opposed it, researchers reported in the journal Annals of Internal Medicine.

The 2002 survey found that 49 percent of physicians supported national health insurance and 40 percent opposed it.

The first paragraphy shows that 32% of American doctors are more concerned about profits.
Universal covererage will decrease their earnings.

The second means what?
Less greedy doctors around now than 6 years ago?
 

BUCSnotYUCKS

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The first paragraphy shows that 32% of American doctors are more concerned about profits.
Universal covererage will decrease their earnings.

The second means what?
Less greedy doctors around now than 6 years ago?

Yeah, those 32% aren't your everyday doctors either. What kind of doctors do you think that is?

It's the cosmetic and specialty doctors.

Ask any doctor who has to deal with this issue and they'll tell you what they think. UNIVERSAL
 

Chadman

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Thanks a lot, Doc - really well-crafted response. Want to take time to re-read it this weekend, especially the entaglements part...:)
 

Toledo Prophet

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We need more Docs posting in this forum as opposed to those who just spout cherry picked stats, prop up straw man arguments, lean on old and tired political sound bites and blame one party while never looking at what their own party has done to cause the problems.

We have a lot of those in here. All the time.

Not enough Docs! Good stuff as always! :toast:

Notice how he broke down the pros and cons of the issue and never once used the tired, scare tactic screed that we will become the next Soviet Union or have to wait two years for a basic check up.

Its a very complex issue. Health care reform is needed, but as Doc points out it is a much much tougher nut to crack than merely waving the Universal health Care for Everyone Banner. Wonder if our "leaders" will ever take the time to properly address this issue. Will all the venom spewed from talk radio and tv, however, I fear that it will be a debate heavy on sound bites playing to both sides bases rather than anything of true substance.

We'll see.
 

layinwood

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Bucs, I think you're wrong on the cosmetic docs being against universal healthcare. I doubt they really care, most of them have nothing to do with insurance anyway. It's a private pay business for the most part so they won't be affected either way.


I believe the reason more docs are changing their mind is because of how difficult the reimbursement side has become. They know with universal coverage they'll get paid and they know how much it will be. As it stands now, they have to jump thru circles to get paid and even then it's not enough.
 

escarzamd

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Right on about re-imbursement frustrations. Latest estimate is up to 210 BILLION spent per annum on pushing paper around........thats an abstract number, but roughly the equal of the cost spent practicing "defensive" medicine. PriceWaterhouse economic analysis of waste in health care was the source. Read that Thursday in WSJ healthblog.

It would be the procedure driven specialties that would resist a single-payer model, but they would still get paid pretty well. Plus, they would lose the angst of the up to 50% pro bono work they perform while pushing the costs onto paying customers. Optho and Plastics have typically lucrative cash-only elective procedures that will always be in demand in this country .......simply put: tits + LASIK = $$$$.

We would adapt professionally. If you ask the same doctors why they oppose single-payer, you probably would get around half of those opposing it because it would raise their taxes. It would not likely affect their income up front, and they might actually work harder and be less resistant to take call. Trust me when I tell you that the two major "access" issues (for specialty care) in this country come down to one of two reasons..........1) cost of malpractice, and 2) not getting paid for their work.

Gotta go........keep bouncing this around!!!
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Right on about re-imbursement frustrations. Latest estimate is up to 210 BILLION spent per annum on pushing paper around........thats an abstract number, but roughly the equal of the cost spent practicing "defensive" medicine. PriceWaterhouse economic analysis of waste in health care was the source. Read that Thursday in WSJ healthblog.

It would be the procedure driven specialties that would resist a single-payer model, but they would still get paid pretty well. Plus, they would lose the angst of the up to 50% pro bono work they perform while pushing the costs onto paying customers. Optho and Plastics have typically lucrative cash-only elective procedures that will always be in demand in this country .......simply put: tits + LASIK = $$$$.

We would adapt professionally. If you ask the same doctors why they oppose single-payer, you probably would get around half of those opposing it because it would raise their taxes. It would not likely affect their income up front, and they might actually work harder and be less resistant to take call. Trust me when I tell you that the two major "access" issues (for specialty care) in this country come down to one of two reasons..........1) cost of malpractice, and 2) not getting paid for their work.

Gotta go........keep bouncing this around!!!

From insurance stand-point--would be my top 2 for increase in insurance premiums also.

We refer to # 2 as "cost shifting"---increased fees shifted to insured to cover non insured.

On # 1---you mentioned early--Dr's forced to practice defensive medicine--example--$30 xray may be sufficient but $500 + MRI's or Cat Scans done instead or in addition "just in case"
--add to that the fact that Dr's malpractice has skyrocketed forcing them to increase fees--not unusual for OBGYN to pay $60,000 a year.

Insurance industry has also added to prob--by getting away from generic coverage of deductible/coinsurance(cost sharing)--to "modernized" co-pay system excluding deductibles/coinsurance.
Example--child has cold- would think twice before taking to Dr if deductible and coinsurance applied--however if only charge is $10 copay--why not.
 

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Today in Israel, everyone is covered by health insurance. In 1994, the Israeli parliament passed a groundbreaking health insurance bill that made every Israeli resident automatically insured, no matter their age, financial status or religion. In the United States today, more than 43 million people, including 12 million children, are uninsured.
 

escarzamd

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From insurance stand-point--would be my top 2 for increase in insurance premiums also.

We refer to # 2 as "cost shifting"---increased fees shifted to insured to cover non insured.

On # 1---you mentioned early--Dr's forced to practice defensive medicine--example--$30 xray may be sufficient but $500 + MRI's or Cat Scans done instead or in addition "just in case"
--add to that the fact that Dr's malpractice has skyrocketed forcing them to increase fees--not unusual for OBGYN to pay $60,000 a year.

Insurance industry has also added to prob--by getting away from generic coverage of deductible/coinsurance(cost sharing)--to "modernized" co-pay system excluding deductibles/coinsurance.
Example--child has cold- would think twice before taking to Dr if deductible and coinsurance applied--however if only charge is $10 copay--why not.

Good post........just as confusing as mine was:mj07:


DTB........I pay more than an OB-Gyn........wait for it...........$110K/yr.........granted its a "group rate" and adjusted to 12 full-time equivalents (we have 16 docs, 4 of whom are part-tme that our carrier is nice enough to throw in for free) but our annual fees to this carrier are $1.32 MILLION / yr........and our record is excellent. We've all been sued, but no cases of merit against any members of my group (knock on wood) are on the record.

This is not a gripe. I knew what I was getting myself into when I signed the contract.

Quick links to current events. This stuff is difficult for me, and I'm in the damn business!!

#1) Cont'd underestimating of the cost of "mandated" health-insurance (Hillary's idea)

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2008/04/07/gvsd0407.htm

#2) Ultra-confusing news of court-battles involving the difficulties of creating "employer-mandated" health plans ..... ERISA is a 1974 federal law governing minimum requirements of a general employee benefits plan (I think, I don't get how it applies......)

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2008/04/07/gvsa0407.htm
 

escarzamd

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Today in Israel, everyone is covered by health insurance. In 1994, the Israeli parliament passed a groundbreaking health insurance bill that made every Israeli resident automatically insured, no matter their age, financial status or religion. In the United States today, more than 43 million people, including 12 million children, are uninsured.

In Israel, you have an ingrained culture of public service to the state, and for good reason.......self-preservation being the primary one in my mind. We don't have that in the states; maybe never did.

Here is some superficial data for your post.......you might be on to something.

Israel's Personal Income Tax Rates

Tax % Income (IS)
10% 1 - 52,680
16% 52,681 - 93,720
26% 93,721 - 140,640
33% 140,641-202,080
35% 202,081-435,120
47% 435,121and over

This includes (w/very few exceptions) income abroad.

Corporate Tax rate is a flat 27% on all non-distributed profit, including income abroad.


The sound bites are not serving to further the discussion, and other than "Health care is a right, not a privelege!" .... I don't hear what you suggest we could do to alleviate the problem. Change the tax laws so they dovetail w/Israel?Raise the minimum age to access Medicare? Mandated health insurance, and if so at the federal or state level?? Tort reform? "Free trade" for foreign pharmaceuticals? Tax my income to $250K for the SS/Medicare pool? Lower benefits?

I can read the news. Lets process the info and bounce it around instead!
 

Cie

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I'd like to see some updated numbers on the following stats from 2000.

How the Elderly Evaluate Their Health Care

Long Wait for Nonemergency surgery:

UK 51%
Canada 40%
US 7%

Difficulty seeing a specialist:

UK 23%
Canada 23%
US 14%

Long wait for serious surgery:

UK 13%
Canada 11%
US 4%

Inadequate outpatient services:

UK 14%
Canada 10%
US 4%

The Elderly's Experiences with Health Care in Five Nations," Commonwealth Fund, May 2000
 

Cie

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This guy, like me, thinks the uninsured problem is overblown. Is it me, or the uninsured problem little more than a democratic scare tactic, similar to the right's use of terrorism to sway voters through fear. Certainly, some must fall through the cracks without health care, but most who are out of the health care loop have dropped out of society to begin with. Maybe the homeless problem should be the concern here, rather than the lack of health care.


http://www.freemarketcure.com/uninsuredinamerica.php
 
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