A Serious Question for Willie The Whip

russellk

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Willie, I have been following you on this forum for almost 3 years now, and think that you are unquestionably the best hockey handicapper I have ever come across.

I have never even registered a username until now, as I never had to need to comment or post anything, but over the past few months I have been doing a lot of thinking regarding fundamental betting philosophy and strategy, and there's a question that I very much want to ask you.

First, I am very confident that the strategy you have developed is obviously a successful one, and every regular season, and every post-season, will end up with profit. Every capper goes through winning and losing streaks, and you are no exception, but at the end of the season, 99 times out of 100, you will end up +X units.

However, I believe that if you really treat this this seriously as an investment, as opposed to just a hobby, then the objective should not just be to profit, but to maximize profit. And I am sure you are not one to just rest on your laurels, but that you constantly examine and tinker with your system, to see if you could improve it in some way.

Which leads me to my question:

If we can agree that the goal is to maximize profit, it seems to me that your best strategy would be as follows: instead of playing the bronze/silver/gold plays at 1/2/3 units, wouldn't it make more sense, and lead to far greater profit, to simply eliminate your bronze and silver plays altogether, and only play your golds at 6 units? Over the 3 seasons I have followed you, every single regular and post season, your golds consistently win at a far greater percentage than your silvers and bronzes. The current post-season is perhaps the greatest example of the discrepancy in winning percentage between your golds and bronzes.

I would never call you an action junkie, because I see that you are disciplined and do not have tons of plays, but even so, isn't playing the bronzes and silvers just increasing the number of plays you have, to make wagering "more fun", since otherwise you may only have 2-3 plays in a week?

I think of it this way. If you were to take emotion completely out of the equation, as if you never watched a hockey game and didn't even know the rules of the game, so basically approaching this exactly as you would a potential investment in the stock market, and that maximum profit was the ONLY goal, you would have to agree that only playing the golds and putting more units on those plays would unquestionably lead to higher returns.

Other then having more plays to follow, and thus making it more fun when you watch hockey, I cannot think of any reason why you would play the silvers and bronzes at all. Even if you did want to have action on more games for the "fun factor" wouldn't it make more sense to play bronzes and silvers at .5 units, and golds at 5 units, than playing them 1/2/3?

Willie, I ask this with all the respect in the world, and your ability to identify winners in second to none. But one thing I have learned over the years is that picking winners and winning money are often worlds apart. The gambling world is full of broke cappers who could pick winners but who could not place the right bets or had poor money management. I actually think that picking winners is the easiest part of sports wagering. Making the right bets and proper money management is much tougher.

Investing as much time as you do, you must have thought about this yourself. So the question is, if the goal is to maximize profit, why have you decided to play the way you do?

Thanks Willie, and best of luck with the few games that are left. I'll be playing your next gold big :toast:
 

bej0101

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why not follow only willies golds at 6 units and let us know how it works out for you?:shrug:
 

russellk

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why not follow only willies golds at 6 units and let us know how it works out for you?:shrug:

That is what I started doing about halfway through the regular season, and it has worked out great. Better profit and more units won then the way Willie plays. I don't think you can argue that point, as the numbers speak for themselves.

For the entire regular season, Willie's golds were 14 games above .500. Since he plays about as many dogs as favorites, for simplicity's sake let's assume the average on all plays is +100. At 6 units each this would work out to +84 units, which is almost double the 48.57 units he ended up winning.

During this post season his golds are 8 games above .500, which has worked out to 48 units won, as opposed to 11.51 (I play all golds the same, even when Willie makes it a super-sized gold as he did Sunday).
 

jng

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Russell, a cogent post clearly laudatory of WTW 'capping skills. Perhaps a longer time frame (4,5, 6 seasons) will validate playing all three levels.

Bej0101, an excellent suggestion and, like Russell, I have tended to only play WTW's gold.

Great discussion.

J
 

bleedingpurple

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I see what you are saying but the Bronzes and Silvers make profit too.... So you can still bet the Golds at 6 units and still bet the Bronnze and Silvers because they are still profitable. Lets say you can go to 6 units gold, 4 units silver, 2 units Bronze... This should even make more profits as long as the Silvers and bronzes show profit. To totally ignore the silver and bronzes would seem to me to cut down on winners. :shrug:
 

IX_Bender

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First off, Im not Willie The Whip.

The real problem with your question or analysis is that the 'golds' dont come easy. Its not a matter of sitting down at the PC and looking over shit for an hour or so to find out "the play".

You have to watch a lot of hockey. You have to look at a lot of boxscores. It takes much more than most ppl understand to put in the work/effort to come up with plays, much less the "gold" plays you're wanting.

The second you start ignoring your 2nd and 3rd level plays because they arent worth betting or watching is the very second that your GOLD plays turn to shit.

Its that simple.

While the russellk recommendation makes sense, it just doesnt make cents. He does have one thing right, MM > Win %
 

HighFlyingKilla

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First off, Im not Willie The Whip.

The real problem with your question or analysis is that the 'golds' dont come easy. Its not a matter of sitting down at the PC and looking over shit for an hour or so to find out "the play".

You have to watch a lot of hockey. You have to look at a lot of boxscores. It takes much more than most ppl understand to put in the work/effort to come up with plays, much less the "gold" plays you're wanting.

The second you start ignoring your 2nd and 3rd level plays because they arent worth betting or watching is the very second that your GOLD plays turn to shit.

Its that simple.

While the russellk recommendation makes sense, it just doesnt make cents. He does have one thing right, MM > Win %

It does make cents when we only bet the GOLD plays.
 

russellk

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I see what you are saying but the Bronzes and Silvers make profit too.... So you can still bet the Golds at 6 units and still bet the Bronnze and Silvers because they are still profitable. Lets say you can go to 6 units gold, 4 units silver, 2 units Bronze... This should even make more profits as long as the Silvers and bronzes show profit. To totally ignore the silver and bronzes would seem to me to cut down on winners. :shrug:

The reason I use 6 units as an example is that is the total that Willie uses for all 3 units, ie. 3+2+1.

In your example, if one were to play as you suggest, 6 on the gold, 4 on the silver and 2 on the bronze, again I would say you would be better off playing 12 on the golds and nothing else. For the 3 regular seasons and the 3 post-seasons that I have seen, all 6 times you would win more units.

I guess I look at it as a question of selectivity. We all know and have heard a million times that one of the keys to successful sports wagering is to cut down on the number of plays. I don't know anyone that wins money over the long term that is an action junkie. I was one myself for a long time and it took an incredible amount of losses before I could even admit that it was a problem.

What I have been really focusing on has been to only make the plays that I absolutely LOVE. We all have our own internal gold/silver/bronze rating system on plays, and most people will simply stagger the amount of units on each bet, exactly as Willie does. I guess what I am saying is, if you don't love a play enough to put your max bet on it, then it should not be played, because you obviously have some doubts about it.

Using Willie as an example, he obviously has a way of determining how good each bet is, and whatever system or analysis he uses to make that determination, it's clearly working, since his winning percentage year after year is highest on the golds. There's a reason he only bets 2 units on the silvers, and 1 unit on the bronzes, and that is that he feels that those plays do not have as high of a probability of winning as his golds, and he is right.

Which leads me back to my original question. Why play them at all? Why not just put everything on the golds?
 

Willie the Whip

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Russell, thanks for the very kind words, I appreciate them! But in all honesty I play for fun and as long as I am winning it is a FRICKIN GREAT TIME and hockey has been good to me for a VERY long time, not just posting on here. I started posting here when I realized I did pretty damn good with the pucks and that has continued. Difference with me is I realize that it is GAMBLING and it can turn on a dime, I dont bet enough to hurt me too bad if I lose, I set aside a certain amount and roll with it, each year, if i happen to lose it, I would take a break until I felt I was ready to try again. Dont get me wrong I would like to make BIGGER PROFITS but Im not willing to bet much more than I do. My gold/silver/bronze plays are really just based on my confidence level. Bronze are usually I like it and think it could win but not willing to risk too much and sometimes your right it is just for "some action" Silver plays I usually like alot but something is off, maybe the line, maybe the consensus, maybe the streaks of wins and losses or over/unders of the teams playing or maybe I just dont trust the play enough. Golds I usually frickin LOVE but like I said i keep in mind that it is Gambling and there is no such thing as a guarantee, so i wont make them. For now im comfortable with the way I play, but you are more than welcome to play them bigger or smaller, but play in your "safe money zone" so you dont get hurt in your wallet. Again I appreciate your comments and GOOD LUCK to all of you guys! :director: LETS GET SOME GOALS TONIGHT!
Whip!
 
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russellk

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First off, Im not Willie The Whip.

The real problem with your question or analysis is that the 'golds' dont come easy. Its not a matter of sitting down at the PC and looking over shit for an hour or so to find out "the play".

You have to watch a lot of hockey. You have to look at a lot of boxscores. It takes much more than most ppl understand to put in the work/effort to come up with plays, much less the "gold" plays you're wanting.

The second you start ignoring your 2nd and 3rd level plays because they arent worth betting or watching is the very second that your GOLD plays turn to shit.

Its that simple.


Look I am not saying that anything should change in how you come up with your plays. Just the opposite, absolutely nothing should change. The only thing that would change is the number of plays you end up making.

In Willie's case, whatever way he has of coming up with his plays would remain exactly as it is now. Why mess with something that has clearly proven itself to be effective over the long term?

So it's not like all of the sudden you start "forcing" golds because you haven't had a play in 5 days. The capping has to remain exactly as the same. It's just that you would only have (in Willie's case) 82 plays for the season, or roughly 3 a week, instead of 428, or roughly 16 a week. And if 2 weeks go by without your system (whatever that may be) spitting out a gold, then you go 2 weeks without making a bet.

The amount of time and effort that you put into capping would not change at all. Only the number of bets you end up making would change.

In Willie's case, I can't imagine that his golds would become any less reliable if he chose to not bet his silvers and bronzes.
 

Willie the Whip

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Russell, I just read the post younjust put in @6:20 and the answer is my silvers and bronzes usually do make a profit and I REALLY LOVE to play, you are dead on with my confidence level by the gold/silver/bronze but truth is if I dont love it, and still WANT to play which I usually do, then I play (ie Bronze) but I do believe its gonna win or I wont play at all!

GOOD LUCK GUYS!!! :mj06:
 

surferboy

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The reason I use 6 units as an example is that is the total that Willie uses for all 3 units, ie. 3+2+1.

In your example, if one were to play as you suggest, 6 on the gold, 4 on the silver and 2 on the bronze, again I would say you would be better off playing 12 on the golds and nothing else. For the 3 regular seasons and the 3 post-seasons that I have seen, all 6 times you would win more units.

I guess I look at it as a question of selectivity. We all know and have heard a million times that one of the keys to successful sports wagering is to cut down on the number of plays. I don't know anyone that wins money over the long term that is an action junkie. I was one myself for a long time and it took an incredible amount of losses before I could even admit that it was a problem.

What I have been really focusing on has been to only make the plays that I absolutely LOVE. We all have our own internal gold/silver/bronze rating system on plays, and most people will simply stagger the amount of units on each bet, exactly as Willie does. I guess what I am saying is, if you don't love a play enough to put your max bet on it, then it should not be played, because you obviously have some doubts about it.

Using Willie as an example, he obviously has a way of determining how good each bet is, and whatever system or analysis he uses to make that determination, it's clearly working, since his winning percentage year after year is highest on the golds. There's a reason he only bets 2 units on the silvers, and 1 unit on the bronzes, and that is that he feels that those plays do not have as high of a probability of winning as his golds, and he is right.

Which leads me back to my original question. Why play them at all? Why not just put everything on the golds?

PERSONALLY, I CAN'T SEE PUTTING ALL YOUR EGGS IN ONE BASKET BUT THAT'S JUST ME. DO I HAVE A CARD OF 5 -10 GAMES A DAY, NO! HOWEVER, I THINK IT'S WISE MM TO HAVE A GOOD SELECT CARD WITH 1 - 5 PLAYS A DAY. JUST MY 2 CENTS, AND IT SEEMS TO HAVE WORKED FOR ME SINCE BETTING SPORTS IN 2004. :mj06:
 

russellk

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Russell, I just read the post younjust put in @6:20 and the answer is my silvers and bronzes usually do make a profit and I REALLY LOVE to play, you are dead on with my confidence level by the gold/silver/bronze but truth is if I dont love it, and still WANT to play which I usually do, then I play (ie Bronze) but I do believe its gonna win or I wont play at all!

GOOD LUCK GUYS!!! :mj06:

Willie, thanks for the reply, and I appreciate your honesty and understand EXACTLY what you are saying. It is exceptionally difficult to put in the time that you obviously do and not make a single play for days on end. You almost start wondering what's the point? And I understand only too well how much better it is to watch a game when you have some action on it, as opposed to strictly as a fan.

The one thing I would say is in the previous reply you say that you only bet what you can afford, and thank god for that! But as you can attest, there are many nights during the regular season when you may have 1 gold, 1 silver and 1 bronze (for example), so you still have 6 units at risk. The way I suggest you would be risking the exact same amount of money, it would just be allocated differently.

And you are absolutely right in that we all have to stay within our "safe money zone" (love that term btw), but what I have done is make my unit size bigger than what most people would recommend, 5% of my bankroll, and now every bet is 1 unit flat. I never waver up or down. If I don't love a bet enough to put down the full unit, I simply don't make it.

Look, I recognize that this is not something that comes easy. It certainly didn't to me. This is something that took years, and more money lost than I care to remember, for me to fully understand, but the way I approach things now is that the ONLY consideration is to MAXIMIZE profit. Not having fun, not wanting action, not ANYTHING except what can I do to win the most, period. I truly treat betting on sports as no different then investing in the stock market. Would it be more fun to have a bunch of different stocks to follow, some that went up and some that went down, as opposed to just one or two that almost always went up?

I used to tail you blindly on every play you made, because I was extremely confident that by the end of the hockey season you (and I) would win money (and I was right), but now that the objective is to maximize profit instead of just to make profit, I have changed my strategy.

And ultimately, I realized that any way you slice it, when you want to have "more fun", you end up with less money, so I thought there might be better (and cheaper) ways for me to have fun.

Thanks again Willie, for taking the time to answer my question, and for continuing to post your plays for all to see here. I know very little about hockey, as my first love is basketball, so without you I would never bet on pucks. You are a class act all the way, and have always carried yourself with honesty and integrity, which definitely makes you a rarity in the world of gambling.

God bless my brother, and LET'S SEE SOME GOALS TONIGHT!!!! :toast:
 
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