19 more killed yesterday

kosar

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Rummy calls tragic days 'necessary' and Bush 'refuses to comment personally'.

Since we seem to like to compare the 'post war' occupations of Germany and Japan to that of Iraq, consider the following post war body counts:

Germany - 45
Japan - 0
Iraq- 139 in about 5 months



Iraq Copter Attack Kills 16 U.S. Troops
By TINI TRAN

FALLUJAH, Iraq (AP) - Leaflets seen in mosques in this tense Sunni Muslim region warned of new attacks using ``modern and advanced methods'' only days before gunners brought down a U.S. Army Chinook helicopter, killing 16 and wounding 20 others.

The Sunday attack on the helicopter, carrying dozens of soldiers on their way home for leave, was the deadliest single strike against U.S. forces since the war began March 20.

Three other Americans - one 1st Armored Division soldier and two civilians working for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers - were also killed Sunday in separate attacks, making it the bloodiest day for U.S. forces since March 23.

Witnesses said the attackers used shoulder-fired missiles against the Chinook, a sign of the increasing sophistication of Iraq's elusive anti-U.S. fighters as the insurgency intensifies.


The giant helicopter was flying with a second Chinook headed for Baghdad International Airport when two missiles streaked into the sky and slammed into the rear of the aircraft, witnesses told The Associated Press. It crashed in flames in farmers' fields west of Baghdad.


An unsigned leaflet posted Friday at mosques in this area of the Sunni Triangle, where anti-American sentiment runs high, urged people to avoid public places over the weekend. ``Special operations against occupation forces might be carried out by using modern and advanced methods,'' the leaflet said.


The leaflet also warned people stay at home, avoid going to work or school and stay away from markets Saturday and Sunday. ``Any persons who move during this period will be responsible for their own safety,'' the note said.


U.S. officials have blamed Saddam Hussein loyalists, foreign fighters and Islamic extremists for the stepped up attacks on the U.S. occupation.


On Monday, 16 U.S. soldiers wounded in the helicopter attack arrived in Germany for treatment at an American military hospital, a spokeswoman said.


Nine of the patients were admitted to the intensive care unit, where five were in a serious condition, said Marie Shaw, a spokeswoman for the Landstuhl Regional Medical Center, the biggest U.S. military hospital in Europe.


``They are being evaluated and surgeries are planned throughout the day,'' Shaw said.


The injured were among nearly 30 soldiers who arrived aboard a C-17 transport in predawn rain at the Ramstein Air Base. Fourteen were taken on stretchers to an ambulance bus waiting to take them to the nearby hospital, while the others walked.


``It's clearly a tragic day for America,'' Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Sunday in Washington. ``In a long, hard war, we're going to have tragic days. But they're necessary. They're part of a war that's difficult and complicated.''


President Bush, who spent the day at his Texas ranch Sunday, refused to comment personally on the attacks.


L. Paul Bremer, the head of the occupation in Iraq, repeated demands that Syria and Iran prevent fighters from crossing their borders into Iraq.


``They could do a much better job of helping us seal that border and keeping terrorist out of Iraq,'' he told the cable network CNN. The ``enemies of freedom'' in Iraq ``are using more sophisticated techniques to attack our forces.''


At the Chinook crash site Monday, a giant crane lifted pieces of wreckage onto a truck, as soldiers sealed off the immediate area, deep in the ``Sunni Muslim Triangle'' that has produced the most violent opposition to the U.S. occupation of Iraq.


On Saturday, fire broke out at an oil pipeline in Samara, 60 miles northwest of Baghdad after it was hit by a bomb, an oil official said under condition of anonymity. The pipeline runs between northern Kirkuk to a Baghdad refinery.


A second explosion occurred Saturday on the pipeline between Saddam's hometown of Tikrit and Beiji, the site of Iraq's largest refinery on an LPG line that links Kirkuk to Taji gas factory in Baghdad.


The area has seen widespread opposition to the occupation. Constant sabotage to pipelines and the decayed state of Iraqi's infrastructure have slowed efforts to revive the country's giant oil industry.


U.S. officials have been warning of the danger of shoulder-fired missiles, thousands of which are now scattered from Saddam's arsenals, and such missiles are believed to have downed two U.S. copters since May 1. Those two crashes - of smaller helicopters - wounded only one American.


The loaded-down Chinook was a dramatic new target. The insurgents have been steadily advancing in their weaponry, first using homemade roadside bombs, then rocket-fired grenades in ambushes on American patrols, and vehicles stuffed with explosives and detonated by suicide attackers.


The Pentagon announced Friday it was expanding the rest and recreation leave program for troops in Iraq. As of Sunday, it said, the number of soldiers departing daily to the United States via a transit facility in neighboring Kuwait would be increased from 280 to 480.


At least 139 American soldiers, including those killed in the helicopter crash, have been killed by hostile fire since Bush declared an end to combat on May 1. Around 377 U.S. service members have died since the beginning of military operations in Iraq.


The death toll Sunday surpasses one of the deadliest single attacks during the Iraq war: the March 23 ambush of the 507th Maintenance Company, in which 11 soldiers were killed, nine were wounded and seven captured, including Pfc. Jessica Lynch. A total of 28 Americans around Iraq - including the casualties from the ambush - died on that day, the deadliest for U.S. troops during the Iraq war.



? Copyright The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained In this news report may not be published, broadcast or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.
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djv

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This is just the start of 2 maybe 3 more years. We could of had more countries with us. But we had to act fast. Iraqis were almost on our door steps with a nuke. Fast buck Cheney doesn't give a chit how many dies as long as his brothers at Hal are doing good. Dam I feal bad for all the family members.
 

kosar

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Thanks Auspice. Good article. I figured that it could get interesting after saturday. It's weird that no matter who QB's, the wins just keep on coming. Don't ya think?
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Hmmm Kosar Did not expect you to be one to gloat over soilders dying and I doubt that is your intention. While there may or not have been any died in occupation of Japan, Islam fanatics are quite different than anyone prior. ANY country in which they exist have headlines everyday of islam terrorist killing just not Iraq.---and if I hear one more pres hopeful wailing about a war zone not being secure I'll drop. If it was secure it wouldn't be a war zone. Since your speaking of history lets go back to the days of Hitler. Many anericans were panicking on going to war when Europe began to be invaded. One senator by name of Joe Kennedy and some of his co-harts actually went to Roosevelt with
recommendation to tell Germany we would not get involve with defending Europe if they would leave us alone. Had Roosevelt listened to these "brave souls" it is anyones guess on what the world would look like today.
Yes it was a tragedy those men died in copter but how many thousands off people have died in last decade in planes targeted by terrorists in addition to those that died on 911. You got to make a stand on these people now or later,in fact it should have been done in Bush Sr tenure. I would much rather take it to them in their arena.
DJV It is apparent that only media you read is liberal as you always have bad news so I am going to give you some links where you can read good news each day.Might make you a happier person.--and I don't even have to get into Fox News ;_
If you read or watch main stream media you might get a smile on your face. Delete those ole left agenda media out of your computer.
--and one final thing as I remember you thanked Clinton for your retirement previously. When you say your prayers tonight thank Mr Bush as ASD shares are at all time high today,Your retirement has double since Slick left town. :142smilie

Just heard Bushes 6 points on economy.You need to read or listen to it.Rather then generalization you been getting from Dem candidates (between the mudslinging among themselves).
Two points I love ,caps on lawsuits,and stopping frivolous class action suits. I believe he was reading my mind. Tomorrow we vote in Ky for governor and have not had Republican in 3 decades, I'll wager a KY hat to anyone that changes tomorrow--my reasoning is people are fed up with the PC and far left agenda and are unfortunately tagging many moderate dems in that catagory,which is not fair--but blame the media.

Heres some good news on the day DJV :)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...80&e=1&u=/nm/20031103/bs_nm/markets_stocks_dc

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=568&ncid=749&e=3&u=/nm/20031103/bs_nm/economy_dc

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...&u=/ap/20031103/ap_on_bi_st_ma_re/wall_street
 

buddy

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dtb,

A rise in economic growth coupled to a decrease in jobs does nothing for the unemployed.

I work for one of the largest industries in the US.

Their battle cry the last 12 months has been, "20% more production with 20% less employees".
 

ego74

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i do not understand why the president gets so much blame or credit for job growth and/or job loss. most jobs are created on the state and local levels.

when a plant or a new restaurant opens in your town, the city govt. has more to do with that than any kind of federal government.

i am a believer that tax cuts do help the economy. I'd rather have my money in my own pocket than a bunch of guys in washington blowing it on dumb spending. if i lost my job tomorrow, it woudn't be the president of the united states' fault.has anyone here lost their job because of who the president was at the time?
 

djv

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ego74 I will let the real smart ones here answer your question. But the answer is yes. Some presidents plans just dont know how to get steady growth going. Yes they give tax breaks and people run out and spend some of that money. But the theory is the rich and powerful that own all those companies will trickle down afew jobs to the middle classe and poor. I few hand out likes wall marts 6 bucks a hour. But for some reason 9.5 million folks are still with out jobs now for almost three years. I guess trickle is not working. Why incentives for companies to run and hide in other countries I dont know. But that is done by the Federal government. And the head of that would be the President. But theres more to it then that.
DTB Was just answering Kosar's Lead about the killing of more of our men. It's a shame when anyone dies. Even crossing the street. But when your someplace your not invited to. Well then blame it on those who sent you. Yes ASD because of its hard working people. All the things put in place over 5 years ago when it ran upto just short of 80. Was ready for any turn around to push it higher. I'll give Bush at least 33% of the thanks. Now I know it's over valued by about 5/6 bucks. And today was D day for me it's all came home to a save place. In fact I may even spend alittle on a Pepsi.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Buddy I think all companies have and would like to achieve that ratio (20% more production with 20% less employees) since the beginning of time.
I am not an eco whiz but I look for more jobs and companys to leave the U.S. if things are not corrected.
Two things I know. Workers need jobs--Companies need workers.
You have 2 parties The dems diss big business and cater to labor. The Rebs are basically pro big business.
If you put big business in adverse situation they can simply move to more friendlier environment, (other countries)
Flip side what recource does the worker have?

Bush had six point preview of his economic agenda in Alabama yesterday and while some were your generic spin all politicians hit on:Cutting health care cost,increasing domestic energy supplies ect--there were a few defined that I have not seen a president side with that would go a long way in boosting economy, and those were reducing medical liabilty cost for doctors,decreasing class-action lawsuits and trimming small busness regulations.

Will be a tough road to hold considering many in congress and senate are affiliated with the bar but a noble jesture anyway.As I stated yesterday,we have election for governor today in Ky which has not had republican gov in over 30 years. Fletcher(the reb candidate) main focus in campaign is legal reform. Will be interesting to see which way the wind is blowing on this issue with todays election result.

DJV I am thrilled at your good fortune on the stock and didn't mean to pick on you was just trying to show we are all guity at times of looking for what we want to see.---and I agree Bush did not have squat to do with increase.It was results of well managed company with correct vision of the future. Which is bottom line on all companys.
 

RAZ

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Couple questions come to my mind when I hear of any American fatality in Iraq, "What did they die for? and If that was your child, parent or spouse would that reason be justifiable/acceptable to you?' I support our troops and those who served 110%, and I believed until recently the reasons were clearly justifiable, now have a tough time answering both questions...... to paraphrase a local talk show host, Jay Severin, " there is nothing in Iraq or any reason that merits the loss of 1 American life, w/the exception being a clear and present danger to the US or any of it's citizens..." I agree w/that statement completely, and if any of those 2 conditions are met you take out that threat completely, without prejudice.
 
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Turfgrass

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WILL THIS BE ENOUGH?

WILL THIS BE ENOUGH?

Either Saddam or bin Laden loyalists shot down an American helicopter in Iraq. Fifteen American soldiers were killed. Islamic radicals are hoping that this will be the Iraqi equivalent of the 1983 bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut. After that explosion the U.S. promptly packed up its gear and ran like hell. That event, by the way, was 20 years ago last week. Islamic terrorists celebrate this yet today as proof of American weakness. They have other examples to cite. In 1996 it was Mogadishu. Another helicopter was shot down and young Americans died. America ran again. We even ran that time leaving our dead behind.

Islamic terrorists and Saddam's Sunni Baathist goons obviously believe that they can make America run again, and they're getting no small amount of comfort from America's leftists in general and the Democratic presidential candidates in particular. If you listen to John Kerry as soon as he finishes telling you that he served in Vietnam he will make it clear that if the decision were his to make America would once again start packing.

The only way these Islamic terrorists can succeed in bringing Saddam's reign of terror back to Iraq is for America to lose its resolve. Democrats are working mightily to bring that to pass. It's called appeasement, and it's the leftist way of life.
 

kosar

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Dogs, you are correct. I am not gloating and i'm not sure how that popped in there. Come on, man.

Ego, i'm not quite sure how the amount of lives lost on 9/11 ties into this 'war' or really is pertinent to anything. To endorse this disaster because they haven't gotten around to killing 3,000 of our soldiers yet is ridiculous. It will probably be 6 or 7 years before they get to that level. And in 2010, we'll probably still be here debating why we're still there.

For the others: I agree that leaving now would not be a good idea. I'm just extremely disgusted that we put ourselves in this position to begin with. Then again, it took about 15 years and 50,000 dead young men to realize that despite every technological advantage, we could not impose our will, or our way of government on Vietnam.

While those examples of Beirut, etc are nice and all, the author seems to have forgotten Vietnam. We sure didn't run away that time, did we?

Before anyone gets all excited about pointing out that this is nothing compared to Vietnam, let me say that I agree with you. However, you would have to be blind to not notice some similarities. Dogs, if anybody, it seems like you'd be somewhat sensitive to these similarities.
 

StevieD

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WE have lost more men so far in Iraq than in the first two years of Vietnam. But I agree we are there and we have to finish the job. But I do not think we should have gone there in the first place.
I thought we went to Afaghanastan because the terrorist were there, then we went to Iraq for any politically correct reason Bush and his speech writers could come up with. Now we are being told we have to stay because the terrorists are coming into Iraq from other countries! Huh? Why didn't we attack the countries the terrorists were in? Also, why do we feel a need to rebuild Iraq, do we feel that same need to rebuild Afaghanastan and any other country we decide is harbouring terrorists? If we do this could get expensive.
 

auspice

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to StevieD

you wrote "to finish the job".... How are you going to define that? There will be some form of terrorism there until infinity. Look at Israel. The pro-Saddam terrorists and other militants will be strapping bombs on themselves and continue blitzing ANY form of democratic rule, whether we're there or not.

Just interested in how or when you think the job is going to be finished or what we're even aiming towards. It's become more and more obvious to me that the salient terrorism that inhabits the terrirtory will once again rule if the government we leave is left unprotected. I'm very interested in your opinion(as always).
 
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DOGS THAT BARK

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Good points. You are correct Kosar there are some siilarities with Viet Nam. One thing that sticks out it is very difficult to beat a man on his home turf. We could have ended Viet Nam in short order by anialating the North but are hands were always tied by repercussions from Chinese. The hardest part and biggest similarity is war is when you can't distinguish the good guys from the bad its a real pisser. Just like them rag heads celebrating on top the burnt humvee. If they would have torched the whole lot it would end that chit fast,but can't do it for fear of allienating the rest of country.
They can keep this up till doomsday unless the majority there decide it is now a better place and help in the fight. If that does not happen there will be no end in sight,however we are knocking out a lot of em on their turf and not ours.I think also there is a lot of info we gained on all the files we salvaged as some of it is just starting to be shared with public.
I also think our money should be spent on military and THEIR money on reconstruction. If I was going to spend our money on reconstruction I would much rather see it go to Afgan then Iraq,as they are a poor country who helped,were grateful and continue to fight againt the terrorist. They would not want me running Iraq scene,cause I would take the Sunni Triangle and reduce it to ashes and get their attention,then start over.
I know.thats silly but they psss me off.--and Brother Kosar never did the thought of you gloating ever enter my mind. :)
 

Chanman

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Raz- thats a good line from Jay severin.
StevieD- Like you said what matters is that we are there now. If we left now it would be a great mistake- IMO. Remember how George H. Bush was criticised for leaving too soon. I would hope we, (Americans), would pull together, but that is too much to ask. Sure seems like Damned if we do and damned if we don't. Bottom line as DTB said earlier -"I'd rather fight them over there than here." When the going gets tough I'd want DTB, Turfgrass, etc. in my corner.
Also interesting how other opinions of the US vary, as examples:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3237277.stm

http://www.rightnation.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=19986
 

StevieD

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Auspice, I don't pretend to know how this thing wil end or if it ever will. I surely do not think that Rumsfeld and Cheney should be running the show over there. The case could be made that Cheney should be hung for treason because of his dealings with Iraq when he was with Halliburton.
Rumsfeld did more than any other American to prop up Saddam during his terrible reign.
But I don't think we can leave yet. One option would be to just blow Baghdad to kingdom come. But we would be killing so many innocent people and we would only grow more hatred after an act like that.
I would like to see the United Nations step in and take over.
I dunno, Bush has certainly gotten us into deep crap over there and as far as I can see for no good reason.
Maybe if we vote the scoundrels out we can get the UN involved.
So I guess until some smarter men come along we are stuck there.
 

auspice

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StevieD

Yeah....that was an unfair question. I'm very aware of it. But I do appreciate your honesty. It's almost impossible to project when 'the job will be done'. It's obvious that we now have to occupy the country until all the reconstruction is complete as no contractor would set foot in that hell without some protective assurances. Makes it harder to project as nobody can define when different stages of the rebuilding are scheduled for completion (like the major electrical supply in Bagdad).

Seems we also must somehow arm the government we leave so it can somehow protect itself from the inevitable terrorism that will follow it to the end of time. Just seems to me that the terrorism will very easily be able to destroy the city services that we're paying out the ying yang to repair. We can't even defend our own airplanes and hotels in Iraq, how are they going to defend the entire country from the terrorism that will certainly follow.

thanks again!!
 
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