a quick poll-need some input

THE KOD

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Since no one of the truthers will respond to me in that other thread about 911 , I have decided to post some of my own opinions on the 911 WTC


I promise anyone entering this thread will be answered honestly and forthright. Not the slippery
lies, ignoring, ignorance that has gone on in that other thread.

The truthers (you know who you are) will just please stay out of here and allow me to post the truth.

I honestly think I can get to the bottom of this .

It seems simple enough.
 
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THE KOD

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Wednesday, May 30, 2007

Do you believe the 9/11 hijackers are still alive?

In my lengthy and always entertaining survey of the major websites promoting the belief that the 9/11 attacks were a conspiracy, I'm always amused to stumble across the gem--which surfaces pretty frequently--that the hijackers are still alive.

Oh, I'm sure you've heard this theory. It's not one of the pillars of the 9/11 conspiracist belief system, but more often it's thrown in as an afterthought--"Oh, yeah, in addition to everything else, the hijackers are still alive." What's curious about the claim is that it's questioned so seldom in the conspiracist underground.

Not long ago I did a study of the specific "hijackers are still alive" claim. My results were interesting. Every single web site I found that made the claim that the 9/11 hijackers are still alive cites exactly the same source: a BBC report dating from September 23, 2001, citing confusion in the initial stages of the FBI investigation of the hijackers' identity. That original report is still preserved on the web (by conspiracst web sites) and you can find an example of it here.

However, there's a curious thing about this report. Not only has it never been corroborated, but in at least two cases it is clearly dealing with cases of mistaken identity. Take Abdelaziz Al-Amari, for instance, who is pictured in the BBC report. Not only does the picture of Al-Amari in the BBC report not even remotely resemble the Abdelaziz Al-Amari named and pictured in the 9/11 Commission Report, but the report very plainly states that there are at least two men with the name "Abdelaziz Al-Amari" who have nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks.

Could it be that "Abdelaziz Al-Amari" is a name that more than one person in the Arab world happens to have? Gee, ya think?

Try this. Go to Google and type your own name in. How many hits come up that aren't related to you? If one of the people with your name was suspected of committing a terrorist attack, don't you think the FBI would be talking to you, if only to rule you out?

Let's take another name listed in the report, Khalid Al-Midhar. The report shows a picture of a man purportedly with that name and says, "there are suggestions that another suspect, Khalid Al Midhar, may also be alive." No sources, no corroboration, nothing. And the man pictured bears no resemblance to the Khalid Al Midhar who is accused of hijacking American Airlines Flight 77.

As for Walid Al-Shehri, the hijacker prominently pictured at the head of the story, there is no legitimate question that he is dead and that the BBC report was simply talking about a different person with the same name. Don't believe me? Read about it here.

Since this single BBC report came out more than 5 years ago, I have found absolutely no additional news report following up on the "mistaken identity" claim. Not one. Indeed, the only other "hijackers are still alive" claim that derives from anything other than this single BBC story, is this one, an AP report detailing an interview with hijacker Mohammed Atta's father--who never once claims that he has seen his son since 9/11/01, merely that he doesn't believe he would do anything like that.

All of the conspiracists' "hijackers are still alive" claims stem from that BBC report. Every single one. A few also cite the Atta interview, but don't base the claim on it.

Don't you think it's a little spurious that the entire "hijackers are still alive" claim derives from one unreliable press report, which came days after 9/11 while the investigation was still going on? Furthermore, if these people were framed (by who?), don't you think they would have come forward 5 years later? Don't you think Mohammed Atta's father would actually have seen his son instead of just making excuses for his murderous behavior? Don't you think these people would be shouting from the rooftops about how they were framed?

Why hasn't a single one of them ever come forward? Not a single one?

So what's the explanation? Hmm, sloppy journalism, perhaps? A BBC reporter writing a story on an investigation still in progress, when the FBI was still trying to sort out the real hijackers from the other, unquestionably alive men with the same names?

It's amazing how many of the pillars of the 9/11 conspiracy theories come from exactly such slender reeds. Last summer I did a blog debunking the oft-repeated claim that a New York City fire chief, Albert Turi, supposedly "testified" to hearing "explosions" in the WTC towers. As I demonstrated, this myth stems entirely from one statement made by one reporter, Pat Dawson, on the scene at the disaster. Yet Turi is quoted as a "witness" to "controlled demolition," on site after site, month after month, year after year.

If you really believe the 9/11 hijackers are still alive, I certainly hope you do so on more than just the say-so of a conspiracist web site that is quoting (or misquoting) this highly unreliable BBC story--one story, run on one day, that was never followed up on.

There is, very simply, absolutely no evidence that the 9/11 hijackers are still alive.

The 9/11 hijackers died on 9/11. That's all there is to it.

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Took me two minutes to find something refuting your stupid argument that makes more sense than the rubbage you put out about the 911 hijackers being alive
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THE KOD

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Could it be that "Abdelaziz Al-Amari" is a name that more than one person in the Arab world happens to have? Gee, ya think?
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There is such simple answers to most of this bs
its scary that people like pt1gobble and Chud get hooked into this.
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Don't you think it's a little spurious that the entire "hijackers are still alive" claim derives from one unreliable press report, which came days after 9/11 while the investigation was still going on? Furthermore, if these people were framed (by who?), don't you think they would have come forward 5 years later? Don't you think Mohammed Atta's father would actually have seen his son instead of just making excuses for his murderous behavior? Don't you think these people would be shouting from the rooftops about how they were framed?

Why hasn't a single one of them ever come forward? Not a single one?

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Because they are dead as doorknobs is why.

Doogy Duh
 

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Saturday, September 29, 2007

9/11 Conspiracy: these explosives were planted where, exactly?

One of the fascinating things about the 9/11 "controlled demolition" theories is how much they take for granted. All the conspiracists' fuss about "squibs" and "explosion testimony" focuses on minutiae that glosses over some pretty big assumptions: if the WTC towers were destroyed by explosives, exactly where were these explosives planted, when, and perhaps most importantly, how come nobody noticed them before the disaster?

It's a fair question. Once you sign on to the belief that the towers were destroyed by explosives, you necessarily sign on to an assertion that somebody, somewhere, got inside the towers before 9/11 and planted the explosives there. But that's a pretty big assumption. You're talking about enough explosives to bring down the two largest office buildings in the world. Realistically, how long would this take, and it it even possible that it could have been done surreptitiously?

Destroying a building is no small thing. In real life, i.e., in non-conspiracy-land, controlled demolitions take months of preparation. Support beams must be carefully sawed through and explosives planted in exactly the right places so that the collateral damage to the site is minimal. In Seattle, the King Dome took months to wire before the trigger was pulled, and the same is true of various casinos in Vegas. So you're talking about a job of several months in duration. Exactly when was this supposed to have occurred in the case of the towers, then?

Conspiracists claim that there was a mysterious "power down" in one of the WTC towers, as reported by a witness named Scott Forbes. I could not find any corroboration of this report. Even if it's taken at face value, there's some serious problems with it. First of all, it refers to a loss of power, from the 50th floor up. For starters I find it extremely difficult to believe that one-half of one of the two largest office buildings in the world could be dark for 36 hours. If it happened, it would have made headline news, with all the banking headquarters and other offices in the WTC. If that happened, wouldn't it be a lot easier to find witnesses to corroborate Forbes's claim?

Secondly, what does a "power down" mean? OK, assume 50 floors are dark. Now a bunch of guys are going to come in and plant explosives? With no lights? No elevator power? How are they going to get the explosives on site? We're talking a lot of explosives. You're going to need trucks to get them to the towers, and certainly you need freight elevators to bring them 100 stories up. How are you going to get a freight elevator 50 floors up with no power? What, ropes and pulleys? Wouldn't somebody notice this massive operation? Wouldn't there be one witness? Just one?

Thirdly, what about floors 1-50, and the other tower? There was no report of a "power down" in the other WTC building, or in WTC7 which conspiracists insist was also "pulled." When were these explosives planted? You would need some bombs in the basement, right? (Conspiracists love Willie Rodriguez as one of their own. If you believe his testimony indicates controlled demolition, there had to be explosives in the basement, right?) If you think the "power down" indicates strange goings-on at the high levels, why wouldn't they have "powered down" the lower floors too? Hmm, maybe it's because a 36 hour loss of power in the entire WTC complex might have been noticed by witnesses. No such witnesses have come forward.

Fourth, 36 hours to do all of this: are you kidding me? You'd be lucky to do it in 36 days. What about the sawing through of the structural beams? The conspirators would be foolhardy to rely on explosives alone, unless they had so many truckloads of them to make it completely foolproof, which, as described in the above paragraph, is not likely. If it takes weeks to wire the King Dome, do you really think you can get the WTC towers, plus Building 7, all ready to go in 36 hours? While people are working their normal jobs all around you? While the people doing the wiring have to go about it surreptitiously?

Does this make any sense to you?

The most damning evidence that the towers were not demolished is the lack of any evidence of the explosives being discovered prior to 9/11.

Consider it. The two largest buildings in the world, plus Building 7, all sitting there, chock full of explosives, with their structural beams carefully sawed through, just waiting for Larry Silverstein or George Bush or Justin Timberlake or whoever plotted it to pull the trigger.

You've got 100,000 people going about their daily business in those towers--office workers, managers, security guards, janitors, electricians, IT staff, waiters, busboys, mail room clerks and maintenance guys. People opening closets and going into basements, cleaning bathrooms and unlocking storage cabinets in little-used offices.

Not one of these 100,000 people notices a wire where it shouldn't be, or a block of plastique taped to the wall?

Not one?

Conspiracists love to trumpet misinterpeted and fraudulent descriptions of what happened on 9/11 as "evidence" of controlled demolition. Willie Rodriguez is a perfect example. But for every "eyewitness account" who describes what they call "explosions," I am aware of no single witness who says he or she discovered any of the explosives before the disaster, or who saw people going around planting them. This is the evidence conspiracists should be looking for. Not Willie Rodriguez.

Think about it before you assume that the towers were wired. It's a major flaw in the conspiracy theory, and one which, six years on, has not yet been adequately addressed.
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Consider it. The two largest buildings in the world, plus Building 7, all sitting there, chock full of explosives, with their structural beams carefully sawed through, just waiting for Larry Silverstein or George Bush or Justin Timberlake or whoever plotted it to pull the trigger.

You've got 100,000 people going about their daily business in those towers--office workers, managers, security guards, janitors, electricians, IT staff, waiters, busboys, mail room clerks and maintenance guys. People opening closets and going into basements, cleaning bathrooms and unlocking storage cabinets in little-used offices.

Not one of these 100,000 people notices a wire where it shouldn't be, or a block of plastique taped to the wall?

Not one?

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This is the kind of logic that just makes truthers look like fools and jesters.

and donkeys __________________
 

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rosie05.jpg

Yeh me and Chud and pt1gard are big buddies. this 911 conspires talk gets my blood boiling. Dont tell Hippo but Chud kissed me right on the lips.

The 9/11 Conspiracy movement's new spokesperson is...Rosie O'Donnell



Flutter of talk and activity in the 9/11 conspiracist underground about Rosie O'Donnell, who recently raised controversy by stating on her show The View that she thinks 9/11 was an inside job, or at least that WTC 7 was "pulled" (here we go again!). The flutter among conspiracists is reminiscent of the same thing that happened last year, when actor Charlie Sheen made similar public comments. The mainstream media has issued a severe beatdown of Rosie for even voicing the opinion--on MSNBC, Tucker Carlson (or was it Joe Scarborough?) savaged her particularly badly.

So let me get this straight. 5 1/2 years after the fact, during which we still haven't met a single witness more credible than the highly incredible Willie Rodriguez, the talk show host and pseudo-actress whose biggest role was Wilma Flintstone is now going to lead all of us brainwashed sheep to the truth?:142smilie


I guess I can understand the conspiracists' glee at Rosie's views. It is certainly true that 9/11 conspiracy theories rarely get any play or serious consideration in mainstream media. Personally I believe these theories should be considered logically and rationally, and, if found wanting (which they are), dismissed on the basis of reason rather than rhetoric. (Not that this approach plays well in the conspiracist underground--when Popular Mechanics conducted a scientific analysis of 9/11 conspiracy theories in 2005, they were savaged and accused, predictably, of being dupes or agents of disinformation. So what else is new?) Maybe Rosie should do a show on 9/11 conspiracy. Have a panel. Have Alex Jones on one side, and Lee Hamilton of the 9/11 commission on the other. If I can prove the logical bankruptcy of Alex Jones's theories on my blog, Hamilton, who is much smarter than me, should have no problem with him. But somehow I don't think Rosie is going to do this, any more than Charlie Sheen is going to stand up and debate 9/11 conspiracy with a skeptic.

But the perception of her credibility on this issue stems solely from the fact that she's a celebrity, and it's presumed that more people will listen to what a celebrity has to say than some other person (or some geek on the Internet writing blogs)./ aka pt1gard :SIB


Rosie makes fun of Donald Trump's hair. Hey, I'm not knocking how she gets ratings. Everybody likes to make fun of Donald Trump's hair. But what kind of credibility does she bring to the table on 9/11 issues?:142smilie


It has to do with the fact that the "evidence" cannot speak for itself. Therefore, Rosie may be bringing a viewpoint on 9/11 conspiracy to a larger audience, but that audience will, by and large, do the same thing that the smaller audiences who have considered the topic have done: reject it, because it simply doesn't stack up. Unfortunately the 9/11 conspiracists don't have the luxury of picking a more credible spokesperson for their point of view. They have to take what they can get. Wilma Flintstone? All right. She's a flake, but at least people watch her.

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THE KOD

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#1 BASIC CORE BELIEF: The main WTC towers could not have collapsed as a result of plane strikes.

This is the heart of 9/11 conspiracism, and it is logical that it is so; in effect this is the "definition" of a 9/11 conspiracy theory because it is the basic refutation of the official story. Consequently all major conspiracist thinkers--Alex Jones, Steven Jones, David Icke, Thierry, the kids who made Loose Change, everybody--agrees on this. It's also about the only thing they can agree on. What's interesting is the methodology of how the conspiracists proceed from this premise. It's a core assumption, rather than a conclusion directed by analysis of the facts; for that reason conspiracism is an inversion of logic. The Joneses, Icke, Thierry and Loose Change are all certain that the towers came down by some process other than plane strikes. They differ--often only slightly--in how they support this assumption, but the assumption itself is inviolate.

COROLLARY 1-A: Fire temperatures and melting point of steel arguments.

77% of the sites I've surveyed thus far have included some analysis of the melting point of steel and/or the supposed heat of the fires in the main WTC towers. It's usually phrased as the "jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough" argument. Loose Change and Alex Jones both make extensive use of this claim. Of the sites that use this argument, 71% mention the February 2005 fire at the Windsor Tower skyscraper in Madrid, Spain, positing the claim that it burned for 20 hours and did not collapse. (Ignorance Is Bliss, a frequent commentator on my blogs, has used this argument on me repeatedly). The "melting point" argument is usually the first attempt to support the core assumption, but it ignores the fact that the melting point of steel is completely irrelevant (in fact steel becomes malleable at a much lower temperature), that the heat from the fires was caused mainly by the burning of debris in the WTC offices themselves (wood, paper, carpet, etc.), and that some experts have independently concluded that the towers would have collapsed from structural failure caused by the plane strikes alone--even if the fires were not present. Nevertheless, even if this was not the case, the "melting point" argument suffers a number of scientific defects which, standing alone, would tend to refute the theory.

Given how frequently the "melting point" argument is repeated on the net lends false legitimacy to the claim at the outset. Only a very few sites I found address the tower collapses without resorting to it. Of those, Serendipity.li and Oxford911truth.org don't employ any better scholarship; they're rather vague and rest on the "free-fall speeds" arguments. These arguments usually rest on the misuse of the seismograph evidence, which has been roundly debunked. None of the sites I found addressed an argument refuting the official story of the structural/"pancake" collapse hypothesis without resorting to either the "melting point," "free-fall" or "seismic evidence" arguments.

COROLLARY 1-B: "Explosion" testimony.

The next most common tactic used by the sites I surveyed was to present some kind of "explosion" testimony, meaning, quotes by eyewitnesses that purport to describe explosions before the tower collapses, supposedly meaning that they were hearing bombs go off. (Last spring I did my longest-ever blog explaining why these statements don't mean what the conspiracists say they mean). 55% of the sites I surveyed engaged in some substantive discussion of "explosion" testimony. Only one site I looked at--again, Serendipity.li--did not use either one of the most common citations of "explosion" testimony: the claim that firefighters responding to the disaster said they heard explosions (this is often coupled with the claim that these reports were officially suppressed), or the testimony of one man, NYFD veteran Albert Turi, who was quoted out-of-context by a reporter, Pat Dawson, at the scene. Last spring when I blogged specifically about Turi's testimony and proved that Prisonplanet.org has wilfully manipulated his statements to fit their hypothesis, a conspiracist sneered that all I had done was knock down a "straw man" and that Turi was irrelevant. But it is interesting that 100% of the sites I surveyed that mentioned Turi quoted Pat Dawson--not Turi directly; 100% of the sites that mentioned him also made the claim that firefighter testimony had been suppressed; and 66% of them also quoted William Rodriguez, a janitor at the WTC featured in Loose Change who supposedly testified about hearing "bombs" in the basement of the towers. (In fact he didn't; that testimony has also been discredited). Turi and Rodriguez aren't the only celebrities in the 9/11 conspiracist underground: another very popular name is Lou Cacchioli, a NY firefighter who gave an interview to People magazine claiming to have heard "bombs." In fact Cacchioli never asserted that he heard "bombs" and was angry that the quote was taken out of context. Furthermore, the fact that all the sites that mention Cacchioli quote his interview to People magazine from September 23, 2001--very much the way all the sites who quote Turi do so by quoting Dawson quoting Turi--leads me to believe that the conspiracists not only parrot the same small snippets of information repeatedly without investigating their sources, but also that the act of repeating them generates a sense of false legitimacy, especially on the Net. The sheer fact that the names Turi, Rodriguez and Cacchioli come up so often must prove that their testimony is substantive, right? No, not at all. In fact here's the truth about these claims:


Rodriguez's original story, reported the day after the disaster, makes no mention of "bombs" in the basement of the towers. In fact he only began talking about "bombs" in June of 2005, well after he had sought to be interviewed by the 9/11 commission and was refused. He has since been the subject of numerous stories by "reporters" in the conspiracist underground, probably because he agrees with the core assumption stated above that the towers were intentionally demolished. Note, however, that Rodriguez's claims are that there was an explosion on the basement level at the moment of the plane strike on the north tower. The north tower was struck at 8:46 AM, but did not collapse until 10:28 AM, almost two hours later. Therefore, the "bomb" that Rodriguez heard at 8:46, and whose explosion he rescued a man from, could not have been any of the "bombs" that the conspiracists believe destroyed the tower. In fact, the 9/11 Commission explains that explosions raked the entire building--from the strike site down to the sub-basement level--at the moment the plane struck. Yet, Rodriguez has emerged as the star of the conspiracists' "explosion testimony" cast--because he is the only person whose testimony could possibly support what the conspiracists want him to support.

The assertion that Turi testified to "explosions" is based entirely--and I do mean entirely--upon the second-hand characterization of his statements by reporter Pat Dawson. Turi's own interview, in his own words, demonstrates that he did not mean what the conspiracists say Pat Dawson said that Turi meant (which, incidentally, isn't really what Pat Dawson said anyway). A substantial piece of the conspiracists' case is based upon one statement, made by one reporter, on the scene of 9/11--one statement amidst hours, days, weeks of non-stop television coverage by thousands of reporters from all over the world.
Cacchioli's "testimony," as I demonstrated above, rests entirely on the wording of the People magazine blurb from September 12, 2001. Again, we have a considerable weight being placed upon one article--which Cacchioli himself later refuted.
These are the three most convincing--such as it is--witnesses in the conspiracists' litany. The others--all the others--whose statements seem to indicate "explosions" are, in fact, clipped out of context, or simply inconclusive, as I demonstrated in my blog to which I linked above.

I was amazed to realize the flimsiness of the conspiracist's "evidence" on these points, and how deceptive their claims look. When Loose Change and Alex Jones trumpet explosion testimony from the rooftops, it looks convincing because they do it so often; in fact they are repeating the same small bits of out-of-context quotes, over and over again, to generate the illusion that there's an army of witnesses out there who say they heard "bombs." The evidence simply isn't there.
 

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COROLLARY 1-C: "The hijackers are still alive."

66% of the sites I surveyed made the claim that one or more of the hijackers are "still alive." All of these sites--and I do mean all, 100%--cite one single source: a BBC report from September 23, 2001 regarding confusion in the FBI as to the identity of the hijackers. Here it is. One media report--uncorroborated--most presented without any follow up.

To its credit, Prisonplanet.org--the site I have observed tends to be the least factually accurate and most distortive of all the major 9/11 conspiracy sites--is the only one that tries to offer any follow-up, by presenting a single AP report from September 2004 in which hijacker Mohammed Atta's father insists his son is still alive. Or at least, that's what the headline of the story wants you to believe; note in the story itself Mr. Atta is never quoted as saying that he believes his son is still living, and this story falls far short of demonstrating any proof whatsoever that the younger Atta did not die on American Airlines Flight 11 as it crashed into the WTC towers. Yet, it is on these reeds--two news stories, one of which doesn't even say what its headline says it says--two thirds of the major conspiracist web sites hang the assertion that the hijackers are still out there somewhere.

As you can see, the factual and scholarly credibility of the main conspiracist sites leaves much to be desired.

#2 BASIC CORE BELIEF: The Pentagon wreckage/damage is inconsistent with an airliner crash.

This is the next belief that unites almost the entire 9/11 conspiracist underground: that, whatever crashed into the Pentagon, it was not a 757. To be fair, this belief is not 100% universal; some sites, such as 911smokingguns.com, back off from this assumption. That is probably because the smarter members of the conspiracist underground realize that the fact of the Pentagon crash is irrefutable. Prisonplanet.org, to its credit, seems to admit this. Nevertheless, the sheer number of sites out there analyzing photos and frames of Pentagon crash video indicates this is still a very deeply-held belief in the underground.

Of the sites that do assert the Pentagon was not hit by American Airlines Flight 77, 100% engage in analysis of the photos, usually the same one (I'm sure you've seen it as an animated .gif on the Web); 83% claim that the hole in the side of the Pentagon was either 16 feet or 70 feet in diameter; 60% use exactly the same photographs and quotes to "prove" that the engine found in the wreckage was not the Rolls-Royce engine that should have been on a 757; and 60% repeat the claim, which stems from the opinion of one expert, that the flight maneuvers described by the 9/11 commission report would have been "physically impossible." Again, as in the case of "explosion" testimony, the poles on which this tent hangs are extremely precarious. One photograph. One expert. In fact there is plenty of evidence that a 757 crashed at the site, as can be plainly seen from the debris and wreckage that the conspiracists' sites don't show you. There is, in fact, no substantive debate that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. Conspiracists who swear that the WTC towers were demolished, however, are almost universally tempted to broaden their claims to include a Pentagon conspiracy as well; after all, why should the WTC strikes have been faked if the Pentagon strike was genuine?

I was surprised by the treatment of the "pod" theory--that's the claim that the aircraft that hit the Pentagon had some kind of "pod" attached to it, presumably related to a missile. Prisonplanet.com and Whatreallyhappened.com both specifically refute this, and evidently "pod" material was excised from an early cut of Loose Change. Not to be outdone, however, some conspiracists claim that the "pod" story was deliberately planted by debunkers (i.e., people like me) so as to create a "straw man" that could be knocked down easily, thus humiliating the conspiracists. Uh, yeah, sure. Whatever.

It is interesting that some of the conspiracists who style themselves as serious researchers often warn fellow travelers not to trot out the "pod theory," because it's so easily discredited and makes conspiracists look like crazed, paranoid loons. This is, at least, some kind of progress, I suppose, and demonstrated that those of us who still believe in logic can occasionally make inroads into the conspiracists' fantasy worlds, given enough time, patience and argument.

#3 MOST COMMON BELIEF: SILVERSTEIN ADMITTED BLOWING UP WTC7.

I am amazed at how obsessively--and how tenaciously--conspiracists repeat this bizarre bit of lore, given how easily it is debunked. 77% of the web sites I surveyed devoted considerable time and space to this. It doesn't rise to the level of a "core belief," but it's pretty close. I myself talked about this extensively in a previous blog. You know the drill: Larry Silverstein, lessee of the WTC complex, was interviewed for a PBS documentary in 2002 about the disaster, where he said on camera that, due to the tremendous loss of life, he told a fire department official that it was time to "pull it," and this is supposedly a smoking-gun admission that he ordered WTC7 to be blown up.

If you analyze this ludicrous assumption, you will find that it hangs entirely--and I mean entirely--on the supposed meaning of the words "pull it." Supposedly this is demolition industry slang for "destroy a building." Yet, none of the web sites I surveyed reference why they believe this to be the case. Not one. All merely posit the belief, "'Pull it' is slang for a controlled demolition," and expect the reader to take that on faith. In fact, as I explained in my blog, it's very clear that Silverstein was referring to the last fire control team to leave WTC7. There's no reason whatsoever to assume, or even suspect, that Silverstein intended "pull it" to mean the destruction of the building, or that the person he was talking to on the phone when he claims he said it (a fire department official) would have understood the words in those terms.

Furthermore, you have to engage in an uncomfortable amount of self-deception to read an "admission" into Silverstein's statement. Do you really think, if he blew up his own building in some kind of twisted insurance scam, that he would readily admit it on national television? The PBS documentary was taped, not live. If you watch the footage of the interview it's obvious that Silverstein carefully prepared for it. This was not a spur-of-the-moment "Freudian slip" that just came out. If he's guilty, why on earth would he admit it?

It simply passes my understanding how any intelligent person could actually believe that this statement is an admission, and "proves" the conspiracy. However, it's a key example of a trend I found extremely common in the 9/11 conspiracy genre: one statement or press report, invariably taken out of context, uncorroborated, and subjected to very strained ideological interpretation is mythologized into a pillar of support for the entire story. Indeed, conceptually conspiracists are forced rather uncomfortably into the position of asserting that WTC7 was deliberately demolished as well; once you decide the main towers were wired, you are precluded, by logical consistency, from supposing that the destruction of WTC7 was innocent. This is why, I believe, conspiracists reach so far in trying to find an explanation for WTC7, and why they're prone to seize upon tidbits--such as Silverstein's statement--which can be easily blown out of proportion into "smoking guns" and "bald-faced admissions."

The Bottom Line

I believe that the conspiracists on the web who write and promote these sites--such as the college kids who made Loose Change--honestly and passionately believe that 9/11 was a conspiracy and that they're acting in the best interests of the nation to expose the "truth." But the more you look at the actual pillars that support their core assertions, the weaker they seem. They rely almost exclusively on external observations and media reports, usually taken out of context; the "official story," by contrast, is supported by the direct experience of hundreds of witnesses. When conspiracists employ witnesses of their own, their testimonies--such as William Rodriguez--focus again on external observation of phenomenon on the periphery of the believed conspiracy, and never direct participation in the conspiracy itself. (What I mean by this is that the witnesses trotted out by the conspiracists invariably testify to hearing "explosions" or seeing "suspicious activities"--all secondhand observation--and why you will never, for example, see a witness who claims directly, "I planted the bombs in the WTC," or "I saw plastique in the towers on September 9," or "I worked for so-and-so who told me he was involved in blowing up the WTC.") The scientific evidence used by conspiracists is usually suspect, and always employed in a destructive capacity (i.e., tearing down the "official version") rather than constructing an alternative hypothesis from the ground up.

What's unfortunate is that, to a conspiracist, the "official story" and the conspiracy theories look as if they're equally supportable by objective evidence--or, in more extreme cases, the conspiracists think their stories are supported by more evidence while the conventional explanations are rejected as being based on flimsy suppositions. The conspiracist will dismiss eyewitness testimony of WTC survivors given to the 9/11 Commission, but credit what Pat Dawson says Albert Turi told him as gospel truth. It's all a difference in thinking and in point of view.

I don't pretend to be able to sway any conspiracists' viewpoints, which are too deeply held to be susceptible to attack by reason or logic. But, I think a more reason-based viewpoint about the events of 9/11 should be available on the web, where there's so much clutter and hype, and thus I will continue to support the efforts of the valiant few (such as those who maintain the www.911myths.com site) to keep it out there.
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Copyright 2001 International Herald Tribune
The International Herald Tribune

November 1, 2001 Thursday

SECTION: NEWS; Pg. 3

LENGTH: 537 words

HEADLINE: Dubai Clinic Denies Report Bin Laden Met With CIA

BYLINE: Joseph Fitchett

SOURCE: International Herald Tribune

DATELINE: PARIS

BODY:
A wave of skepticism and outright denials greeted a French newspaper report Wednesday that Osama bin Laden had been hospitalized in a Dubai clinic for kidney care for 10 days in July and met there with a U.S. intelligence operative -- just weeks before the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

The report, published as the main story in Le Figaro, a leading conservative newspaper in Paris, suggested that the CIA had maintained direct contacts with Mr. bin Laden ever since the agency first extended covert assistance to him in the 1980s, when he was a Saudi volunteer for the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

At the time of the alleged meeting, Mr. bin Laden was being sought in a worldwide manhunt in connection with U.S. embassy bombings in East Africa in 1998. The United States was offering a $7 million reward for information leading to his capture.

The newspaper offered no independent confirmation for its story, which was based on a leak from someone "associated with the management team" of the American hospital in Dubai, where Mr. bin Laden allegedly underwent treatment.

"Osama bin Laden has never been here," Bernard Koval, the head of the hospital, said in Dubai.

The story -- of hospitalization and a visit from the local CIA chief -- is "utterly implausible," according to an Arab diplomat in Paris. Never, he said, would Mr. bin Laden have run the risks of prolonged medical treatment in Dubai, a free-wheeling Gulf city-state with an underworld of smugglers and mercenaries easily recruitable to assassinate the man listed as U.S. public enemy No. 1.

"If he had needed treatment, he would have chosen a place where he could count on draconian security like Baghdad or Damascus," the Arab official said.

According to the Figaro story, the head of the CIA post in Dubai "was seen" going into Mr. bin Laden's room. But the 100-bed clinic's boss, Mr. Koval, told reporters in Dubai that "this is too small a hospital for someone to be snuck through the backdoor" -- a phrase apparently applying both to Mr. bin Laden and the local CIA station chief.

Mr. Kovel said that no trace of the terrorist's presence had emerged from discussions with all members of the clinic's staff, including Dr. Terry Callaway, Canadian-born specialist who allegedly treated Mr. bin Laden.

"He's never been a patient here, he's never been treated here," Mr. Kovel said.

Officials in Dubai have not reacted to the report, and the U.S. Embassy in Paris said that it had a policy of never commenting on intelligence matters.

"Disinformation may have been planted on the paper to suggest a continuing covert linkage between the CIA and bin Laden," according to a French intelligence source.

Such collusion -- based on Mr. bin Laden's role in the CIA-backed campaign against the Soviets in the 1980s -- has been a leitmotif of reservations voiced by some people in France about the U.S.-led military offensive in Afghanistan. French leftists often depict Mr. bin Laden as a fundamentalist fanatic manipulated by the CIA with the aim of creating conditions in which the United States can exploit terrorist violence to expand the U.S. military presence in Central Asia.

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The story...

The passport of one of the hijackers was found at the WTC. It's clearly impossible for any personal effects to survive the impact and explosion, therefore it must have been planted.

Our take...

Our first reaction is why would they bother? What does it add to the story? There was no need to ?plant passports?. We?ve never seen anyone say ?they must have been on the planes because look, the NYPD found that passport?. It?s completely unnecessary, and is only ever used as evidence of an ?inside job?.

But could the passport have escaped destruction? Explosions are unpredictable things, it?s surprising what can survive, and there are accounts of personal effects being retrieved from other passengers. Here?s one from Flight 175.

"Orange County, CA., Sept. 11 - Lisa Anne Frost was 22 and had just graduated from Boston University in May 2001 with two degrees and multiple academic and service honors. She had worked all summer in Boston before coming home, finally, to California to start her new life. The Rancho Santa Margarita woman was on United Flight 175 on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, when it became the second plane to slam into the World Trade Center...

Her parents, Tom and Melanie Frost, have spent two years knowing they will never understand why.

A few days before the first anniversary of our daughter's murder, we were notified that they had found a piece of her in the piles and piles of gritty rubble of the World Trade Center that had been hauled out to Staten Island. It was Lisa's way, we believe, of telling us she wasn't lost.

In February, the day of the Columbia tragedy, we got word they'd found her United Airlines Mileage Plus card. It was found very near where they'd found a piece of her right hip. We imagine that she used the card early on the morning of Sept. 11 to get on the plane and just stuck it in her back pocket, probably her right back pocket, instead of in her purse. They have found no other personal effects".

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The story...

4,000 Israelis failed to turn up for work on September 11th, suggesting they knew about the attacks.

Our take...

You'll find this story in various versions around the web, but we've picked one account at Public Eye (www.publiceye.org/frontpage/911/Missing_Jews.htm).

First, how do they get the figure of 4,000? It seems high to us, would around 9% of the workers there really be Israeli? The article points to a Jerusalem Post story on September 12th:

"The Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem has so far received the names of 4,000 Israelis believed to have been in the areas of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon at the time of the attack. The list is made up of people who have not yet made contact with friends or family, Army Radio reported. Telephone connections between Israel and the New York City and Washington, D.C. areas has been sporadic and unreliable since the multiple attacks yesterday".

So it's clear this figure isn't just people who work at the WTC, or even the WTC and the Pentagon. It's just a guess, based on families who have relatives nearby (perhaps just visiting New York or Washington, or touring the US and may have been in the area), and who haven't heard from them yet. Which, given the overwhelmed telephone system, is no surprise at all, and was matched in other countries (a UK help line for anxious relatives received over 20,000 calls about potentially missing family members, see http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/story/0,11209,601150,00.html). Ireland similarly reported receiving 2500 to 3000 calls (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1540543.stm).

The article confirms the general nature of the calls later, with a quote from the New York Times:

"For example, the city had somehow received reports of many Israelis feared missing at the site, and President Bush in his address to the country on Thursday night mentioned that about 130 Israelis had died in the attacks.But Friday, Alon Pinkas, Israel's consul general here, said that lists of the missing included reports from people who had called in because, for instance, relatives in New York had not returned their phone calls from Israel.

There were, in fact, only three Israelis who had been confirmed as dead: two on the planes and another who had been visiting the towers on business and who was identified and buried".

Makes sense to us, and shows that this figure of 4,000 (and therefore all the claims that flow from it) is entirely meaningless. The story was given life by Lebanon?s Al Manar television, though, and the anti-Israel slant meant it was quickly picked up across the web. Read more about this with Bryan Curtis Slate article (http://slate.msn.com/id/116813).

Further detailed debunking of this story at http://www.nocturne.org/~terry/wtc_4000_Israeli.html

For more on who died and where they came from, visit http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/COUNTRY_CITIZENSHIP.htm .

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The story...

Bush didn't leave the school he was visiting in Florida until around 30 minutes after the second plane crash. Why didn't the security service evacuate him? Does this mean they knew he was in no danger?

Our take...

We're constantly told that no, 9/11 wouldn't have required a lot of people to pull off, compartmentalisation and the "need to know" would have limited those with inside knowledge. And yet claims such as this keep adding more people to the list. Because plainly, you couldn't simply have one or two security service personnel knowing he wouldn't be attacked: it would have to be all, to avoid confusion and people speaking out. And enough of the hierarchy for them not to be disciplined about it later.

If this were true, then the conspirators have now got another large group of people who, if any of them were to go public, could blow the whole story. Because it doesn't matter what else they know, simply saying that they knew Bush was safe would be a serious leak. And the gain to the conspirators of letting these people know is what, exactly? How does giving the security service advance knowledge of the attack, then letting them behave in what's claimed to be an unrealistic way, help the conspiracy at all?

Yes, that's okay, we know, people are just "asking questions". So let's suggest an answer. Where were the security service to take him? How did they know that the attackers might not be relying on Bush being moved? Perhaps there was a truck bomb waiting for Bush to be moved to the airport. Maybe there was an ambush planned there. What if Air Force One was the target? The Security Service staff at the school with Bush did not have an overview of what was going on, and as Bush was in an area that was secure on the ground, at least, then surely it's reasonable to take time to consider where Bush should go next. And take guidance from someone who was in the loop, back at the White House.

Those who suggest this wouldn't be reasonable at all point to Cheney as one possible example:

Meanwhile, Secret Service agents burst into Vice President Cheney?s White House office. They carried him under his arms?nearly lifting him off the ground?and propelled him down the steps into the White House basement and through a long tunnel toward an underground bunker. Accounts of when this happened vary greatly, from 9:06 [New York Times, 9/16/01 (B), Telegraph, 12/16/01] to after 9:30. [CBS, 9/11/02, Washington Post, 1/27/02] Cheney?s own account is vague and contradictory. [Meet the Press, 9/16/01] The one eyewitness account, by White House photographer David Bohrer, said it happened just after 9:00. [ABC, 9/14/02 (B)] It?s easy to see why the White House would have wanted this event placed at a later time (after Bush?s initial statement to the nation rather than after the second crash) to avoid the obvious question: if Cheney was immediately evacuated, why wasn?t Bush?
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/essay.jsp?article=essayaninterestingday

However, this isn't a good comparison at all. Cheney was in the White House, and was moved to another part of, uh, the White House. There's no way this could expose him to risk, which isn't something you could say about moving Bush.

Of course the problem with discussing this, is most of those involved have no real idea what they're talking about. I'm a Brit: even if you like what I do on this site, why should you trust my guesses about US security service procedure? And much the same applies for those on the other side of the argument. Unless they have an in-depth knowledge of situations like this, why should you take their opinions as fact?

So let's forget our opinions, then, and look at an account of how this was seen on that day. It's the one Richard Clarke gave us in his book Against All Enemies, and while brief, it's still interesting:

The television screen in the upper left was running CNN on mute. Noticing the President coming on, Lisa turned on the volume and the crisis conference halted to listen. "...into the World Trade Centre in an apparent attack on our country."

During the pause, I noticed that Brian Stafford, Director of the Secret Service, was now in the room. He pulled me aside. "We gotta get him out of there to somplace safe... and secret. I've stashed FLOTUS". FLOTUS was White House speak for Mrs Bush, First Lady of the United States, now in a heavily guarded, unmarked building in Washington...

"Can you work with Brian", I told [Franklin] Miller. "Figure out where to move the President? He can't come back here until we know what the shit is happening."..."

Page 6
Against All Enemies
Richard A Clarke

In itself this seems straightforward, but the important part is when it took place: Bush didn't deliver his remarks until 9:30. And yet, the Director of the Secret Service, at least as reported by Clarke, isn't astounded that Bush is still at the school. In fact it seems it's only just occurred to him that something needs to be done. It appears Stafford doesn't want to simply "get Bush out of the school", either -- he wants assistance in planning what their next move should be, from Clarke, who was the man in charge of the White House Situation Room at the time. Which surely was a reasonable idea.

Anyone intent on proving conspiracy could spice this up with guesses, assumptions and speculation, obviously. They might move on to say this simply proves Stafford wasn't doing his job properly, say. Or maybe Clarke lied about the whole thing to provide a cover. Of course a simpler explanation might be that the actions of Bush's security detail on 9/11 weren't so hard to understand after all, to those with real inside knowledge.
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The story...

On visiting the supposed Flight 93 crash site, Ernie Stull (the Mayor of Shanksville) said "there was no plane".

Our take...

This quote was first used by German television to justify the idea that Flight 93 didn't crash at Shanksville. It was picked up by American Free Press ( http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/9-11_mysteries.html ), then referenced at other sites ( http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pop_mech/reply_to_popular_mechanics.htm , http://www.prisonplanet.com/911.html ). It remains a fringe idea (most people seem to prefer the ?Flight 93 shot down? theory), but is something you?ll encounter occasionally online & at Google.

Is the ?Flight 93 didn?t crash there? implication a fair reflection of Stulls view, though? Der Spiegel decided to investigate.

When Der Spiegel confronts Stull with the English translation of these passages in the book and the film script, the man is speechless: "My statements were taken completely out of context. Of course there was an airplane. It's just that there wasn't much left of it after the explosion. That's what I meant when I said 'no airplane'. I saw parts of the wreckage with my own eyes, even one of the engines. It was lying in the bushes."
Source

This is the point where those who want to hold on to a conspiracy explanation will claim that he's changed his story, been "leaned on", and this is in itself proof that something shady is going on. Fortunately Der Spiegel covered this, too, by viewing the full tape of Stulls interview. After the "no plane" comment, he went on to say this.

"They just found the two turbines because, of course, they're heavier and more massive than everything else. But there was almost nothing left of the actual airplane. You can still find plate-sized parts out there. And Neville from the farm over there found an aluminum part from the airplane's outside shell behind his barn that must've been about 8 by 10 or even 8 by 12 feet."
Source

Using ?no plane? on its own is clearly a misrepresentation. One that became even more clear when Flight 93 debris photos were released at the Moussaoui trial (see here).
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How many times has this been reported as a conspiracy allegation. Over and over. And then we find out the guy meant no plane.

Geez Louise
 
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The story...

Why did Flight 77 make a complicated 330-degree turn around the Pentagon, before hitting it in an area that had recently been reinforced? This looks suspiciously like an effort to reduce casualties, or perhaps protect Donald Rumsfeld, whose office was on the other side of the building.

Our take...

August 2006 saw the NTSB release details about Flight 77 and its flight path, perhaps allowing us to make more sense of this. Here?s the map.

The turn occurred before Flight 77 reached the Pentagon. The pilot didn?t fly around it, in an apparent effort to hit a particular area: he simply aimed for the side he was approaching. To hit another wedge would have required an extra turn, and perhaps some thought to avoid tall buildings, planes landing at the airport near the Pentagon, and other obstacles (the wedge hit on 9/11 is the rightmost visible side in this picture).

Why make the turn, though? Might the pilot have realised he was too high? Perhaps so, as the document also tells us that Flight 77 was as high as 8,000 feet around the beginning of the turn, and 2,000 feet by the end of it. Being forced to make such a manoeuvre is perhaps further confirmation of an inexperienced pilot. (And if you believe that an inexperienced pilot couldn?t make such a turn, then you might care to read ?Another expert!?, a 911myths.com contribution from experienced pilot Giulio Bernacchia).

Once the turn had been completed, the pilot may then have been able to use landmarks to assist in the final approach. We?re currently looking for photographs that might help with that, but one obvious candidate is the position of the Washington Monument.

Whatever the truth of that, there?s no sign here of any special effort being made to hit one particular area of the Pentagon. The pilot seems only to have hit the first wedge he saw..
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The banking of the plane wasnt done by any professional pilot, it was done by a terrorist just trying to hit the Pentagon any fawking way he could. I displayed pictures of the Pentegon crash which showed plane debris, windows of a commercial plane etc.

Its wacko to think any other thing.
 
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I was amazed to realize the flimsiness of the conspiracist's "evidence" on these points, and how deceptive their claims look. When Loose Change and Alex Jones trumpet explosion testimony from the rooftops, it looks convincing because they do it so often; in fact they are repeating the same small bits of out-of-context quotes, over and over again, to generate the illusion that there's an army of witnesses out there who say they heard "bombs." The evidence simply isn't there.
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Geez that sounds awfully familiar.

over and over and over until people begin to swallow it .
 

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Reality check for the Twilight Zoners: Federal investigators and experts believe a combination of massive damage from falling debris plus raging fires led to a progressive collapse of WTC 7, causing structural failures that brought the building down.

Popular Mechanics patiently bats down the paranoid delusions of Bush-bashers and terrorism-deniers who have seized on flimsy evidence and cherry-picked quotes and misquotes to bolster their cockamamie theories.

Consider how the conspiracists have abused 20-year veteran New York City firefighter Louie Cacchioli. A People magazine article attributed this quote about WTC 7 to Cacchioli after the attacks: ?We think there was [sic] bombs set in the building.? But Cacchioli told Popular Mechanics he was misquoted: ?I said, ?It sounded like a bomb.? I tried to explain what I meant [after the fact], but it was already out there.?

Cacchioli has been contacted repeatedly by people hoping he will say there were bombs in WTC 7, but he refuses to do so. According to the book, Cacchioli is ?distressed at the inaccurate use of his name in conjunction with conspiracy theories.?

He?s not alone. Popular Mechanics also interviewed Marc Birnbach, a freelance videographer whose words have also been twisted by the tinfoil hat brigade. On the day of the attacks, Birnbach told Fox News in a live broadcast that he ?didn?t see any windows? on United Airlines Flight 175 before it crashed into WTC?s South Tower. Revisionists have exploited the no-windows statement to perpetuate claims that the South Tower was hit by a military cargo plane or fuel tanker.

Never mind that chunks of fuselage with passenger windows from Flight 175 were found in debris at Ground Zero. Or that the simple explanation for Birnbach?s inability to see the windows is that the plane was banked sharply as it approached the South Tower, tilting the windows upward. Or that Birnbach himself rejects the cargo plane/tanker nuttiness: ?I think they are completely out of line.?

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Twisting the words of witnesses for their own cause is sick and twisted.
 

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No Planes Theory: R.I.P.
Those who argue that there were no planes which crashed into the Twin Towers on 9/11 say that "computer generated imagery" (CGI) was used to insert fake video images of planes. However, these folks are forgetting something: there are numerous eyewitness reports of people who heard the planes.

In other words, for the no planes theory to be true, not only would CGI have had to be inserted in live videocamera feeds, and all of the witnesses who saw the planes be disinfo agents, but some sort of high-tech flying sound generator would have had to be used to fake the moving sounds of planes flying into the buildings.

Here are some of the earwitness accounts:

"LT. BOB LAROCCO, FIREFIGHTER, LADDER 9: We all heard a plane that sounded like it was in trouble. So everyone stopped what they were doing. I kind of thought to myself that it was headed toward Newark Airport. I didn't think much of it. And then I heard a dull thud. I kind of stopped in my tracks and stopped for a second, and said, nah. People started running out of the stores on Second Avenue there. They were saying, oh, God, oh, God, a plane just crashed into the World Trade Center."
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/15/asb.01.html

"[Deputy Fire Chief] Hayden: I was continuing on. I worked the night before. I was in my office when I heard a plane coming in low."
http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/hayden.html

"Battalion Chief Joseph Pfiefer said, 'We heard a very loud plane, which you never hear in Manhattan. We all look up and see this commercial airline flying very low. We follow it and it goes right into the Trade Center. You could see it didn't veer off. It appeared to aim at the Trade Center smashed into the upper floors. Created a big fireball and then disappeared into the building. I transmitted a second alarm...20 seconds after that I transmitted a third alarm.'"
http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=41&id=51111

Jazz legend Sonny Rollins: "I heard this plane flying in kind of low. Then I heard, ?Pow!? I pulled out this old black-and-white television set. I got it working, and then I saw the second plane come into the other tower."
http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=8255

"Toby O?Berry [who worked for Morgan Stanley in the Twin Towers] . . . looked up toward the burning tower and the people leaping from it, then heard a plane rumbling across the picture-perfect blue Manhattan sky.
And then he ran. Then he heard a rumbling sound. He looked up and saw a plane smash into the south tower. All my co-workers, they?re all dead, Toby thought. Then he turned and ran, shaking people out of their stupor along the way."
http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060910/NEWS/60910003/1001&lead=1

Julie Williams, who worked in WTC2, said "We stepped out of the building walked not 8 feet and I heard another plane and I turned around and I saw the 2nd plane as it hit my building."
http://www.kark.com/news/print.asp?mode=shownews&id=7472

"I had taken the Path train to the WTC and stopped at a newsstand on my way out of the building to see if they had a magazine that I was looking for . . . . I had just passed Century21 this giant discount department store on the corner when I heard the loudest plane that I had ever heard. I stuck my fingers in my ears. Then I heard a high pitch whine like when a bomb drops. Then the impact - BAM!"
http://roolalenska.blogspot.com/

Worker in the Twin Towers said, "In my jog north I heard the second plane hit . . . ."
http://www.beliefnet.com/nllp/Inspiration.aspx?page=0&date=09-11-2006

"Everyone at the marina was out on the docks, discussing what had happened. Had the plane lost control? Then we heard another plane almost directly overhead. It was awfully low, and I said "What, is he going in for a closer look?" Then the second plane crashed into the side of the south tower. A fireball shot out both sides of the building and you could see parts of the building falling over the city."
http://www.pelorus-jack.com/boat/02_newengland/nyc.html

"Bill Continelli was in lower Manhattan on September 11, 2001. He was south of the World Trade Center and heard the 2nd plane as it flew over and slammed into Tower #2."
http://www.ourmedia.org/taxonomy/term/3714

"Standing 2 1/2 blocks away from the WTC, staring up, looking at the ball of fire in the first tower. Frozen. Paralyzed....watching charred fax papers drift down gently on the breeze. I heard the 2nd plane approaching and ran."
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060909040618AAFq7Ma

"It was before 9 a.m. when I heard this plane overhead...in central NJ, we're always in somebody's flight path because of the proximity to Newark Airport. This plane was loud, and I mean LOUD, shaking the house and everything in it. It sounded like it was going to land on my roof. I looked out the window, but the plane had zipped by. About 10 minutes later, my boyfriend called and told me to turn on the news...and that's how I found out."
http://www.rr-bb.com/archive/index.php/t-220658.html

New York based Australian author, Peter Carey, said "We?re in this little street on the corner of 6th Avenue and Houston Street, you could see down there to the World Trade Center, and I heard that plane come overhead, and it was very low . . . ."
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/mediarpt/stories/s659555.htm

As soon as I heard the plane hit, I grabbed my camera and walked out on Greenwich St.
http://911digitalarchive.org/photograph/details/215

"They heard a plane."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2236210.stm

"Then I heard another plane hit."
http://kevinsteel.org/projects/music/ingodshands.html

"Early this morning around 9 am, I heard the sound of a low flying airplane. It was so loud my immediate thought was that it was a terrorist or a plane that would land on our rooftop in Greenwich Village."
http://www.readio.com/archives/0109/11WTC/nyclickers.html

"As he walked across the courtyard, he looked up to see first tower ablaze and minutes later heard a roar and saw the second plane strike".
http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/w2001-02/9-11survive.html (James Calcagnini)

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How much more do we have to understand about this to know that planes hit the towers.

Sound ............ what a thought .....

Does that mean that maybe it was not a goverment conspiracy ? Could it be that Bin Laden and his crew of merry men were behind this all along.
 

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The Activities Schedule Has Just Been Released

2008 Democratic National Convention Schedule of Events

7:00 pm
Opening Flag Burning

7:15 pm
Pledge Of Allegiance To The U. N.

7:20 pm
Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast

7:25 pm
Nonreligious Prayer and Worship
Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton

7:45 pm
Ceremonial Tree Hugging
Darryl Hannah

7:55 pm
Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast

8:00 pm
How I Invented the Internet
Al Gore

8:15 pm
Gay Wedding Planning
Rosie O'Donnell

8:35 pm
Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast

8:40 pm
Our Troops Are War Criminals
John Kerry

9.00 m
Memorial Service for Saddam and His Sons Cindy Sheehan and Susan
Sarandon

10:00 pm
"Answering Machine Etiquette"
Alec Baldwin

11:00 pm
Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast

11:05 pm
Collection for The Osama Bin Laden Kidney Transplant Fund Barbara
Streisand

11:15 pm
Free the Freedom Fighters from Guantanamo Bay Sean Penn

11:30 pm
Oval Office Affairs
William Jefferson Clinton

11:45 pm
Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast


11:50 pm
How George Bush Brought Down the World Trade Towers Howard Dean

12:15 am
"Truth In Broadcasting Award"
Preented to Dan Rather by Michael Moore

12:25 am
Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast

12:30 am
Satellite Address
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

12:45 am
Nomination of Hillary Rodham Clinton
Nancy Pelosi

1:00 am
Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast

1:05 am
Coronation of Hillary Rodham Clinton

1:30 am
Ted Kennedy Proposes a Toast

1:35 am
Bill Clinton Asks Ted Kennedy to Drive Hillary Home

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