anybody here read The Conservative Mind by Russell Kirk?

[EXTRAPOLATER]

For starters, yes, there are conservatives up here in Canada.

Just curious if anyone has read this book. It's apparently often used in university political science courses, at least in the U.S. Often cited in other more contemporary works in political science as well. From 1953, it traces the origins of conservative political thought from Thomas Hobbes' Leviathan (curious if anyone has read that, too) up through the thought of Edmund Burke and up to Kirk's own period.

I'm wondering if this is a worthwhile read. I've read much about it, but not the original.

At risk of being misinterpreted, let me simply add that my experience has demonstrated that individual conservatives and liberals seem to vary greatly on their personal desciptions of what their political ideologies really are and I am wondering if this book provides a reasonable description of this particular perspective.

Said enough.
Please let me know your thoughts on this work if you've consumed it.

 

[Chadman]

I think it might be a good idea for people to post anything like this that they have consumed and think worthy of a read. I don't read nearly as much as I used to...after working (ahem) at the computer all day and driving a total of 2.5 hours, coaching, etc., I just don't make time for it.

But I do want to make a better attempt in the coming years.

However, I have found Smurph's and Tenzing's he-said-he-said-stupid-head of late to be pretty deep. At least Smurph rounds out his depth with kickball...

 

[EXTRAPOLATER]

"I think it might be a good idea for people to post anything like this that they have consumed and think worthy of a read."

Sure might.

Might also be interesting to inquire about other's self-described ideological positions, especially for those claiming to hold one.

What remains precious becomes futile.
Spread the wealth.
It will cost you nothing.

 

[smurphy]

I'm a centrist.

Conservatives and Liberals of today don't really match how they were defined 50+ years ago.

The worst thing to happen to American conservatism has been the link with evangelism. This makes the old conservatives cringe.

 

[EXTRAPOLATER]

I'm a centrist.

Conservatives and Liberals of today don't really match how they were defined 50+ years ago.

The worst thing to happen to American conservatism has been the link with evangelism. This makes the old conservatives cringe.

I hear you.
Five to one no "conservative" within can articulate Kirk's position. Hobbes' either, for that matter.
No harm, us Canadians are pretty obtuse about our politcal ideologies as well.

Maybe some student of the genre will come in and shut me up--make me look a fool.
'zwhat I'd hope for, actually.
Ignorant, dogmatic belief is, afterall, merely ignorance.
And ignorance is far from the bliss it promises.

Shit...was hoping for some adequate dissemenations.
Oh well...can always cast stones later if no one proposes a position, or ackowledges knowledge.

every dogma has its day.
some have several.

 

[smurphy]

And ignorance is far from the bliss it promises.

I like this line and will overuse it in drunk discussions. Almost makes ignorance sound like a drug.

every dogma has its day.

This is also very good.

 

[gardenweasel]

I hear you.
Five to one no "conservative" within can articulate Kirk's position. Hobbes' either, for that matter.
No harm, us Canadians are pretty obtuse about our politcal ideologies as well.

Maybe some student of the genre will come in and shut me up--make me look a fool.
'zwhat I'd hope for, actually.
Ignorant, dogmatic belief is, afterall, merely ignorance.
And ignorance is far from the bliss it promises.

Shit...was hoping for some adequate dissemenations.
Oh well...can always cast stones later if no one proposes a position, or ackowledges knowledge.

every dogma has its day.
some have several.

what do you mean,"shut you up"?....i didn`t get your stated position...don`t believe you stated an opinion on anything....

..i believe you said you haven`t read these books,so a discussion on these books wouldn`t be very edifying(btw,i haven`t read them,either,so i can`t help you there) ......so,

not really understanding the gist,here`s william boetcker`s simplified definition of conservatism in a 10 bullet format...

1)You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
2)You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
3)You cannot help little men by tearing down big men.
4)You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
5)You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
6)You cannot establish sound security on borrowed money.
7)You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
8)You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than you earn.
9)You cannot build character and courage by destroying men's initiative and independence.
10)And you cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they can and should do for themselves.

if this wasn`t in the ballpark,i apologize....and please carry on without me...

 

[smurphy]

Weasel, it's not your fault.

 

[gardenweasel]

Weasel, it's not your fault.

i`m feeling better...the puss is draining outta my lowest ear(the knuckles still drag,though)...

 

[EXTRAPOLATER]

what do you mean,"shut you up"?....i didn`t get your stated position...don`t believe you stated an opinion on anything....

..i believe you said you haven`t read these books,so a discussion on these books wouldn`t be very edifying(btw,i haven`t read them,either,so i can`t help you there) ......so,

not really understanding the gist,here`s william boetcker`s simplified definition of conservatism in a 10 bullet format...

1)You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
2)You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
3)You cannot help little men by tearing down big men.
4)You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
5)You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
6)You cannot establish sound security on borrowed money.
7)You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
8)You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than you earn.
9)You cannot build character and courage by destroying men's initiative and independence.
10)And you cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they can and should do for themselves.

if this wasn`t in the ballpark,i apologize....and please carry on without me...

Thanks, GW.
Was looking for something along those lines.
Need to have another boo tomorrow after today wears off, if yaknowhatimean.

I didn't state my own position as it remains pretty weak, at least as far as the arguments that I could use to defend it go. Long story.

Just seems to be some rather limited views of human nature within some of the interpretations of these positions. Some rather repulsive assumptions, in my opinion. My experience discussing such matters--with some Canadians, at least--seems to suggest that they don't hold such assumptions at all, despite them being central to works by Hobbes and Kirk, for example.

Probably not making much sense.
Wouldn't be the first time.

 

[EXTRAPOLATER]

and smurph, that dogma line isn't mine--stolen.
can't recall who originated it.

 

[Tenzing]

I'm a centrist.

Conservatives and Liberals of today don't really match how they were defined 50+ years ago.

The worst thing to happen to American conservatism has been the link with evangelism. This makes the old conservatives cringe.

Lol. OMG lol. You are an unabashed Liberal. You hate personal freedoms, you think some elected bozo knows better than I about what is good for me, and your zeal, which approaches venom, is unmistakably left-wing. I have never ever heard you espouse a right-wing idea, and I don't think you know how far to the left you are.

edit Jefferson recognized the need for religion in the government. so no "Old" conservatives would "cringe" at all

 

[redsfann]

edit Jefferson recognized the need for religion in the government. so no "Old" conservatives would "cringe" at all

No, he didn't.

"Believing... that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." --Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802.

 

[Chadman]

Redsfann, when will you learn that when you prove Tenzing so outlandishly wrong, it is now know simply as Thread Hi-jacking? :shrug:

Not to nitpick at your list, Wease, but this one really stuck out for me, when looking at the past few years:

6)You cannot establish sound security on borrowed money.

Definitely food for thought on what could be a long thread to be Oft-hi-jacked.

 

[redsfann]

Redsfann, when will you learn that when you prove Tenzing so outlandishly wrong, it is now know simply as Thread Hi-jacking? :shrug:

Not to nitpick at your list, Wease, but this one really stuck out for me, when looking at the past few years:

6)You cannot establish sound security on borrowed money.

Definitely food for thought on what could be a long thread to be Oft-hi-jacked.

:mj22:

:mj07:

 

[Toledo Prophet]

Our Civil Rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinion in physics and geometry.

Not my words.

Thomas Jefferson's words.

Same guy who thought the New Testament was crap, wrote his own Bible excluding what he saw as the mythology of the Virgin birth and so forth, distrusted organizated religon, a Deist, insisted the word Creator be used in the D.O.I. rather than God so that people of all faiths would be represented and has a plethora of quotes attributed to him denoucning Chrisitian charlatans who manipulate people using Gods words.

Yeah, he sure did want to make sure religon and government mix. Not sure, sir, you could be more historically inaccurate. But, by all means keep trying.

 

[smurphy]

Lol. OMG lol. You are an unabashed Liberal. You hate personal freedoms, you think some elected bozo knows better than I about what is good for me, and your zeal, which approaches venom, is unmistakably left-wing. I have never ever heard you espouse a right-wing idea, and I don't think you know how far to the left you are.

edit Jefferson recognized the need for religion in the government. so no "Old" conservatives would "cringe" at all

Tenzing, you seem to lack all sense of humor and understanding of sarcasm through winking emoticons. Yes, I'm a democrat. I'm as left as you want me to be. Honestly, whatever gets me as far away from you as possible I will gladly accept.

It's not your fault.

 

[Toledo Prophet]

Tenzing, you seem to lack all sense of humor and understanding of sarcasm through winking emoticons. Yes, I'm a democrat. I'm as left as you want me to be. Honestly, whatever gets me as far away from you as possible I will gladly accept.

It's not your fault.

Smurph, its not your fault.

But, whats up with the Avator change? I did not know you were a hockey fan, or even a Habs fan!

Do you have a series wager or something?

Big, big Game 4 tonight. I'm going for a run after work, but I plan on having my butt in front of a TV in time to watch. Grew up playing and think the Stanley Cup tourney is sports drama at its best.

Now back to your usually scheduled drivel that often is the madjack politcal forum.

 

[Chadman]

Toledo, Smurph is a known band-wagon jumper...he just likes to be known as a "winner."

That's why he's a democrat, heading into this Presidential election...

:rimshot <--- (For Tenzing)

 

[smurphy]

Smurph, its not your fault.

But, whats up with the Avator change? I did not know you were a hockey fan, or even a Habs fan!

Do you have a series wager or something?

Big, big Game 4 tonight. I'm going for a run after work, but I plan on having my butt in front of a TV in time to watch. Grew up playing and think the Stanley Cup tourney is sports drama at its best.

Now back to your usually scheduled drivel that often is the madjack politcal forum.

Stop-hi-jack-ing-threads

I've been to one NHL game - it was in MTL a few years ago - Koivu scored with 2 seconds left in OT to win and avoid penalty shootout. I pay attention to them in the playoffs. They are not looking very good this series. Maybe the avatar will help give them a boost.