At the end of the day...it may not matter

hammer1

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who wins this election. George Bush has quite possibly set in motion the demise of the United States as we know it. Even if John Kerry is elected he may not be able to reverse what has already been done. Bush's re - election will just hasten the process.
As President Mubarek of Egypt said "iF U invade Iraq you will give birth to a thousand Bin Ladens and this may be the battle u can not win". My friend after retiring from Araamco just returned from a last trip to visit friends he made while working all over the Middle East and Asia. In the last year since he retired the increase of support for a global war against us has sprouted conscripts beyond what could be imagined. A new generation of young minds are trauining in schools worlwide on handling and delivering the weapons that we were told were in Iraq. They are learning this just like we learned to fix our Chevys and now Hondas. And they look at this as a war they will win with their generation. They are funded by every barrel of oil we drip into our hummers and suvs. and now by the third largest economy in the world. ..............Drugs. The poppy fields in Afgahanistan that Mr Bush refused to address are flooding money into schools and training centers from Jakarta to Riyadh and the Saudis ..Mr. Bush's best friends to date have done nothing to crack down on them.and they probably cant because doing so might cause the downfall of the House of Saud and they know it.
On August 26, 2003 The Prince Sultan Air Base in Saudi Arabia was inactivated and the 363rd Air Expeditionary Wing was moved to Qatar. Entirely due to the internal pressures within Saudi Arabia from the forces that we are fighting in Iraq. What does this tell U. The new generation knows we are nation whose pepole have no taste for battle. They are all talk and bluster but no delivery. The cite Americas inability to even get enough troops to fight a war initiated by our President. And they are right. Not one of my Republican friends and none of the Bush supporters i have read in these forums will send their sons and daughters to die or get maimed in Iraq. The Islamists have 30,000,000 plus and thats a conservative estimate Iran next????????????? get real !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How do u win a war no one wants to die for ????????? We have 140,000 and almost half are reservists now conscrpted by a backdoor draft and theres no one in the pipeline next July when they come come or will Bush make them serve 3rd and 4th enlistments till they are all dead.
The coalition of the coerced is bailing out weekly. Even the Brits will be down from 22,000 plus troops to 8000 this year and poss out entirely by the end of the year 2005 no matter what happens. When Blair is gone the Brits are gone. The muslim world looks at us and Israel as the terrorists and if u were a muslim how would u look at our actions. The maimed dead and disfigured from Iraq, Gaza and the West Bank plaster the television screens of the Islamic world daily. Bill Clinton traveled the world and was greeted as a Rock star. George Bush had to to cut short his Indonesia trip because of the massive demonstartions and the fact that the govt could not guarantee his security. He has gone no where since..................an American President in hiding.whio woulda thunk it 4 years ago. Guess he's gonna be in the white house toilet with duct tape hiding just like he has told us all to do.
In Afghanistan Karzai {former Unocal oil executive who still may never get that trans Afghan oil pipe line from the Baku oil fields built} has been elected as Mayor of Kabuil...........just like the Russians we are sitting in Kabul waiting for the other shoe to drop. The Warlords and Taliban who are back..Surprise!!!!!!!!! run the rest of the country.
I still remember the 8 year old boy deilvering a riveting speech against America to a throng i guess of 10,000 plus acording to Ted Koppel that his mission in life will be complete when he is the bullet delivered to the heart of America. He is now probably 11.
Democracy in Iraq????? Only an uneductaed Man like Mr. Bush and his foolish supporters would beleive it possible.
I remember being at a strip club in Las Vegas and missing the whole damn show talking to a pair of gentlemen from Iran about when Democracy will come to Iran with all the student protests and substatial middle class. Their answer..............NEVER!!!!!!!!!!! As long as u have 80% of the population impoverished and devoutly Islamic u will always have overwhelming support for the clerics as their faith is the only thing that makes their lives tolerable.
Americans live in a cacoon and have no idea what is happening around them. Travel a little overseas..talk to people from around the world that visit us and u may get a clearer picture. And read some foreign newspapers for Christs sake. Whens the last time anyone here did that.
And last visit a Islamic school or training camp..and then come back and vote for George.
I rest my case.
And last why dont some of u Bush supporters start thinking.......... instead of cutting and pasting garbage.
Have a Nice Day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

davidjg47

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Hammer 1, what you have said is TRUE but George Bush wasn't the leader of our country when America got soft. I am sure Bush knows what is happening and will do his damnest to prevent it. He is trying to keep the fight over there. You said, how do we win a war, no one wants to die for. We have lost over a thousand in this war and they all were there to fight for our country. They have many more people who are willing to die for their cause but they were there before Bush and Bush is the one who said enough is enough. We can win this war by keeping it out of America shores. Good always wins over evil. Clinton was treated like a rock star because the leaders of Iran, Iraq, N. Korea, and all the other bastard countries knew were were soft and our leaders were weak. We lost over 3,000 people and you lived to long in the middle east because it seems to me you have already given up? I hope not for your grandchildren and their children...I have the greatest hope we can rid the world of evil and at least Bush is TRYING.....
 

hammer1

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Saddam was contained and wasnt going to do anything

Saddam was contained and wasnt going to do anything

AS i said before.
#1 Stop our dependence on Middle East Oil
Zero would be ideal.
Natioinal Policy to decrease Fuel Consumption
no matter what the cost.our existence may depend on it. Stop the oil $$ u starve the terror funding...no loss af American life.
#2 Impose settlement in Palestinian/Israeli conflict. If it takes our troops, Un troops whatever. U remove prob 90% of the pre invasion
recruitment of future terrorists. Every Preasident before Mr Bush from either side of the isle realized the danger of an explosive Middle East. Mr Bush was brain dead. His hands off policy in Israel unthinkable before his election has wrought the current carnage.
#3 No matter how big u are, how strong u are, how many guns u have...the smallest human, pebble, germ , or idea can bring u down. Study history. From Ghengis Khan ,the Romans, The British Empire, ..who also gave a shot at Iraq and got bloodied far more than we have yet to experience military
Might when used to occupy has always failed. U cannot impose Democracy. It has to come from the people who live there.
The Soviet Union tried occupation last and it collapsed with out a shot. And dont for minute believe that Reagan had anything to do with it. Tell this to someone who's son or daughter lost their life in the shipyards of Gadansk the streets of Bucharest
the public execution of Cieucescu in Romania
or the streets of Moscow when Yelstsin stood on top of a tank and dared thye Russian military to fire on him. They will bristle in anger. Not one American went to a Gulag fighting for our liberty they will tell u. From 1957 when the Russians crushed the Hungarian uprising to the Prague spring America was no where to be seen when they looked to us for help. They have long memories. As George Tenet said in the 9-11 hearings ..."We desperately need the help of foreign nations to fight this war...with out it we are blind". We are not fighting terror in Iraq.we are slowly bleeding for one mans personal folly. Bush reminds me of the movie "A Clear and Presnt Danger" when a President uses Americas might for personal reasons.
How hard would we fight if someone tried to impose Communism or Islamic rule upon us. All of us would forget our differences , unite and fight to the death ..I would hope. Same in Iraq.
Did George Bush expect the Iraqis we trained would turn on us and fight us the
next day with the training and waepons we gave them,. Iraq had a 1,000,000 man plus army many seasoned from the Iran Iraq war. What do u think they are doing now???????? They look upon us as "prey". This insurrection was in place a year before our invasion and Bush knew it. Made no preparations for it whatsoever. Mission Accomplished ?????????? Commader in Chump!!!!!!!! Every member of the Jopint Chiefs said we will need 500,000 troops minimum. George Rum Dum and Wolfshits convinced Da Dumya otherwise and we ignored our miliatry and George charged into his Waterloo. Well gotta go and i prob drifted off the orig topic.sorry

Oh yes Clinton got funded Special Operations forces to be able to go world wide to knock out terrorist training camps. Dont know where the $$ is now..prob in Halliburtons pockets. Bush was made aware of this at his handover security briefings. he just ignored this and convened his first cabinet meeting to justify an invasion of Iraq and sent Tommy Franks over to the middle east to lay the ground woprk while he concocted a justification for an invasion. Mr Bush is not over there to fight terror t so it is not fought here. It will be fought here when our enemies decide to fight it here. WE should have spent the last 3 years pursuing them and rooting them out not banrupting and bloodying ourself in a needless conflict. So stop believing the baloney about fighting them there so its not fought here..one has nothing to do with the other.
Now i can sign off...............Keep ur mind open..the one in Washinton is closed.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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"As President Mubarek of Egypt said "iF U invade Iraq you will give birth to a thousand Bin Ladens and this may be the battle u can not win".

Oh so we should take our instructions from the Muslim world???

The have been attacking everywhere world wide way before Iraq invasion including here in case you forgot.

So we should take your and President Mubarek advice and just sit back and patiently wait for next attack???

Maybe you like last administration ideas eg North Korea --Pay them to behave and trust that they will.

The one thing you forget is if people are given opportunity to freedom (most not all will take it) and that is key to fighting terrorism

Proof is in the pudding ---Afgan has been under seige by many countries in the last 100 years including the super power of Russia and no one could budge them--BUT offer them freedom who knows they may join you and even be voting in a democracy some day--Could you imagine ;)
 

Master Capper

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Dogs,

1. Afghan for the most part is back under the control of warlords and terrorist have begun to establish sites again in the western part of the country. Freedom and Democracy are easy words to toss around but to put them in place is a whole another story.

2. Bush should of not only listened to Mubarek but also to some of his own people about going into Iraq! At this point there have been 100,000 innocent civilians killed in Iraq of course some of them were killed by terrorist but agreat many were killed by us which has led to much more hatred for America. Right now the country is a total mess and I have yet to hear Bush utter any idea of a plan to change this course as I really dont think the guy has a clue other than trying to do what he has done his whole life which is to throw money at the problem and hope that fixes it. Money is not going to solve this problem as we must build the trust of these people if we have any chance for success and success begins with a well thought out plan for winning the peace which we do not have. At this point Mubarek was exactly right on what he forecasted would happen if we went into Iraq as the country has turned into a training ground for terrorism and unfortunately our troops are stuck in a shooting gallery.
 

hammer1

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"As President Mubarek of Egypt said "iF U invade Iraq you will give birth to a thousand Bin Ladens and this may be the battle u can not win".

Oh so we should take our instructions from the Muslim world???
No what u do is take their advice. They live there. Mubarek defeated terror in his nation after the assassination of Sadat. Remember??????????????????????

The have been attacking everywhere world wide way before Iraq invasion including here in case you forgot.
Not everywhere.............and wherever they attack..thats where we attack not somewhere where they dont exist!!!!!!! Bush found out who attacked the Cole and did nothing..instead sat around to get a reason to invade Iraq.

So we should take your and President Mubarek advice and just sit back and patiently wait for next attack???
Come on now..... read what i've said where did u get ur statement from "Wait for an Attack" I'm trying to be patient with u. I have oulined what should be done and how serious the threat we face is and how we are running out of time.

Maybe you like last administration ideas eg North Korea --Pay them to behave and trust that they will.
What the last administration was trying to get was get verification of what was going on. Since Mr Bush came in the cameras in N KOrean nuclear facilities were pulled and now we guess at whats going on. Dont start spouting wild BS.

The one thing you forget is if people are given opportunity to freedom (most not all will take it) and that is key to fighting terrorism
You are wrong and Mr Bush is wrong and i will give u an ezample..an eye opening one and i would tend to agree with u that in America we assume that our freedom is coveted by all.
I had an opportunity and i suppose i should use that word "opportunity" cautiously to spend a period with a Lady from the Soviet Union who came here as a I guess u'd call it "War Bride"...not mine someone else's She was Movie Star Quality visually but Excorcist quality socially. She ultimately went back to Russia totally disgusted with our great land. Hell I bought her one way ticket . U would be hard pressed to have an American woman not born into wealth being given $1000 expense money on a Sunday night and being broke by Tues eve. and then calling u a tightwad for balking at another Thou to tide her over till Fri eve. her background from what i found out was she was involved with some Mafia Don in Russia who now lives in New York I guess. Anyway she contended that in America we all worked like rats had miserrable overworked lives, had no culture, were boorish, and basically concluded that we had the freedom to be miserable. She also mentioned that we have no health care for our people her son had no gurantee of a higher education if she stayed here and that going fishing or watching football on a weekend was not her idea of time well spent on a weekend. Flying to Rome to shop for leather articles..or Paris for a show on a wknd were. Coulda pulled it off a few times but not every week. Maybe should give her number to Eddie.

Proof is in the pudding ---Afgan has been under seige by many countries in the last 100 years including the super power of Russia and no one could budge them--BUT offer them freedom who knows they may join you and even be voting in a democracy some day--Could you imagine
Are u totaly comatose........"freedom in Afghaniastan" where???????? yes in Kabul thats it...and Karzai has assassination attempts on him regularly...noboby goes outside of Kabul without heavy military escort...or u dont come back. Would u consider urself free if a trip to Lexinton, Kentucky would mean u die.
There hope im done fer the day. Friday Fun Awaits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

hammer1

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MASTER CAPPER...u do a fine job of enlightening the unenlightened and unenlightable here...i think i'll abdicate my efforts here.
Have a good day!!!!!!!!!!!
Where is Zoar, Ohio and is John gonna win Ohio Tues?????????
 

djv

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It's so dam funny how Bush wants everyone to think we went to Iraq to keep the fight over there. What fight over there with who? No one from the country of Iraq attacked us. No One.
 

pirate fan

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I don't think we are dealing with people who can solve peacefully as much as we would like that. Dying defending Allah is an honor with much reward. They is a total different value on life, and as much as we may value it, others have that little value for it. Religion is used as a crutch to founder many terrible ideas, all in the name of whoever's God. Liberating the masses will impower them to do great things as history has shown. MC, do have numbers on how many we have killed vs. the terrorists? 100,000, is this world wide or just Iraq? Mubarek is right that many more terrorists will rise but I think they would have anyhow, maybe just slower. We will always be the big evil in the world and hated because of our freedom and wealth. If we don't want to give that up, then we must stand up for it.
 

Master Capper

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Hammer1:

1. Zoar is about 30 miles south of Canton or in easier terms about 115 miles south of Cleveland.

2. Will Kerry win Ohio? At this point he is ahead in most of the polls but unfortunately I think Bush will win here and as much as I hate to say it I think this is shaping up for a bigger Bush win across the country then we are expecting. Which is going to be bad for the country as Bush has never been competent to run anything in his life even when his father has tried to set him up in golden goose positions he has tanked each opportunity. Just my opinion but the Dems really dropped the ball with the nomination of Kerry as he has too many holes that can be targeted by misinformation as the Bush administration supplies to the general public. If the Dems had a stronger guy running this election would be over at this point, could you imagine what Bill Clinton would of done to Bush if they were running head to head? Unfortunately, we are going to be stuck with four more years of lies, misinformation and corruption with Bush and Cheney and whomever takes over in 2008 more than likely will inherit a country that has been damaged so severe that they will be set up for failure!
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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." Afghan for the most part is back under the control of warlords and terrorist have begun to establish sites again in the western part of the country."

I don't know what this administrations thoughts are but I would not pursue the drug lords until more employment and opportunties reaches Afgan. You can't take their only source of income without an alternative--and terroristwill always be a threat but at least they aren't the governing body anymore--Which do you think is the better alternative???

"At this point there have been 100,000 innocent civilians killed in Iraq of course some of them were killed by terrorist but agreat many were killed by us which has led to much more hatred for America"

Reminds of the days I used to frequent muslim message board.
Got frustrated and left because they also could not distinquish the difference of killing and targeting civilians on purpose vs those killed accidently being used as shields-short rounds or bad info.

DJV "No one from the country of Iraq attacked us. No One."

no shit neither did Germany or North Korea

and it was just you saying the other day we should have invaded Iran -Did they attack us--did afgan attack us????

You better go get your flu shot cause evidently you been to Kerry fundraisers and caught this years strain--FFF. (Flip Flop Flu) ;)
 

hammer1

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I may have tunnel vision but it just seems there are huge numbers of people registering for the first time that are not Bush supporters. And none of them are getting polled by these pollsters.
Here in Wisconsin i hear it from various parts of the state..also from New Mexico and an Elderly lady from Florida where I know the polls are not in Kerry's favor called and told me "Dont worry we put him in..and we'll put him out".. He wont BushWhack us twice ................I want to believe!!!!!!!!!
I am prepared for the worst though...............
 

kosar

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DOGS THAT BARK said:
I don't know what this administrations thoughts are but I would not pursue the drug lords until more employment and opportunties reaches Afgan. You can't take their only source of income without an alternative--and terroristwill always be a threat but at least they aren't the governing body anymore--Which do you think is the better alternative???

How many hours after we leave there do you figure it will take before the country is operated exactly as it was before we got there? Or should we stay there for 10 years kinda, sorta, maybe having a little control, but not much?



Reminds of the days I used to frequent muslim message board.
Got frustrated and left because they also could not distinquish the difference of killing and targeting civilians on purpose vs those killed accidently being used as shields-short rounds or bad info.


May I ask wtf difference you think it makes to the families of those killed? While it's nice that we aren't killing civilians on purpose, can you kind of see why killing large numbers of women and children might just upset people over there?



DJV "No one from the country of Iraq attacked us. No One."

no shit neither did Germany or North Korea


I'm not sure what kind of goofy analogy that is. Germany was in the process of taking over Europe. North Korea invaded our ally and in the process ran over and killed large numbers of Americans. And Iraq? Well, i'm not sure what that one was all about. How about you?
 

hammer1

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Not Funny Mr Squirrel
Nuts..and u would not want to say that to my face. We still have in our thoughts one who is no longer with us.
If u ever met me u would instantly know that i am capable of ripping open ur chest and serving ur heart up to anyone who may want it I am a tall 6'5 and in my opinion gentle man but i have seen men tremble when i raised my voice and i have never meant to frighten anyone unless they intend to do me harm. I have faced dangers that would make Mr. Bush fall on a sword. So far u are safe.
 

IntenseOperator

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hammer1 said:
Not Funny Mr Squirrel
Nuts..and u would not want to say that to my face. We still have in our thoughts one who is no longer with us.
If u ever met me u would instantly know that i am capable of ripping open ur chest and serving ur heart up to anyone who may want it I am a tall 6'5 and in my opinion gentle man but i have seen men tremble when i raised my voice and i have never meant to frighten anyone unless they intend to do me harm. I have faced dangers that would make Mr. Bush fall on a sword. So far u are safe.

:lol2

kurby kurby kurby

From the movie....

"EASY FRANCIS" :yawn:
 

Master Capper

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Dogs,

So thus what your saying is that it's just too bad that innocent people died in Iraq it's just the cost of going to war? Flip that around and if this was happening here in America and your family members were being killed would you just chalk it up as the cost of war? I doubt that you would and you would be pissed at whomever was responsible for the killing, what are these people that dies to you just numbers that you can just gloss over the fact that 100,000 innocent people have died for a war that can never be justified for the reasons that we are there. If you want to base this on stopping terror then the country we should be attacking is Saudi Arabia as that is where the vast majority of the funding for terror comes from and where the highest percentage of terrorist reside. How many Iraq citizens were involved in 9/11 or how many were involved in the Cole attack? ZERO,but how many Saudi nationalists? Over 80% were from that country! I am sure Muslim's reading your comments would also feel the same disgust that you felt when reading their boards. What the hell does Korea or Germany have to do with anything? Both of your examples are not even close in comparing them to Iraq, both of the countries you brought up were aggressors that were attacking our allies and they needed to be stopped but this time Iraq was not an aggressor that handled in the first Gulf War since then the country has been in a box with very little contact with the outside world and the military had been decimated due to the embargo. Now I suppose that you will go to the we invaded Iraq because of the cruel dictator to save the people card which is another lame excuse because if this was the case we would be in Africa where there are numerous countries with dictators that are absolutely brutal but since there are no natural resources there we turn our backs!
 
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