Cleveland parents of dead soldier blast Bush

[Master Capper]

Looks like Cindy Sheehan has some company as people are starting to question why we are actually in Iraq and why the administration had and has no solid war plans in place for occupying the country.



Wednesday, August 17, 2005
Michael Sangiacomo
Plain Dealer Reporter
The parents of a Marine killed in Iraq accuse President George Bush of killing their son, as well as 1,851 other American troops.

Paul Schroeder and Rosemary Palmer said it was time to either end the American military presence there or send enough troops to finish the job.

The parents of Lance Cpl. Edward "Augie" Schroeder II, held a news conference in their front yard in Cleveland Tuesday to say that it's time for the American people to "stand up and shout their condemnation" of the war.




Noting that their Marine son would probably disagree with them, the couple asked Americans to tell Bush, their senators and representatives that:

The ever-increasing death toll in Iraq can't be justified.

Bush must either supply enough troops to finish the job or get them out.

The military should stop using Marines as a stabilizing force; they are a fighting force being misused in Iraq.

Bush should stop "tying support for our troops in the field and support for his war. The two are not the same."

"Ever since the returning Vietnam veterans were badly treated in the 1960s and 1970s, our nation has dealt with the guilt by making it clear that we support the troops," said Schroeder. "Bush has turned it around to say that if you don't support the war, you can't support the troops. That's just not true."

The couple said they did not make their anti-war statements Monday at their son's funeral because "that was his day."


The parents said they support the effort of Cindy Sheehan in Crawford, Texas, the mother who is part of a new anti-war movement. Sheehan, whose son was killed in Iraq, has camped out on the road to Bush's ranch since Aug. 6 and refuses to move until he agrees to meet with her.

"We consider her the Rosa Parks of the new movement opposing the Iraq war," said Rosemary Palmer, referring to the woman known as the mother of the civil rights movement. "We have to fight this war properly or get out."

Bush has said he sympathizes with Sheehan but has given no indication that he will meet with her. She did meet with Bush in June 2004, at a gathering at Fort Lewis, Wash., for grieving families.




Bush also expressed confidence that the Iraqis will be able to finish writing their constitution, which should put the country on the path toward a post- Saddam Hussein democracy not dependent on American soldiers.

Bush made the comment after the Iraqi leaders on Monday declared they could not finish the constitution before the Aug. 15 deadline and said they wanted an additional week.

A White House spokesman referred to Bush's remarks at a news conference Thursday, when the president said, "Pulling troops out prematurely will betray the Iraqis. Our mission in Iraq, as I said earlier, is to fight the terrorists . . ."

Palmer noted the significance of the Aug. 15 date, saying the number of Americans killed in Iraq up to that day has risen to 1,852, including her son, and that 13,769 have been wounded.

"Enough is enough," she said.

 

[BobbyBlueChip]

Where does moveon.org get all this money to prop up all these liars?

 

[ocelot]

We still haven't gotten our the UN on board this operation. Have we even tried? I'm sure they want no part of it still anyway.

 

[ocelot]

Bush and his puppetmasters have stepped into a big pile of shit. It is doubtful though that anyone else could've done better given the utter insanity of the region.

I think we have all as Americans completely underestimated how determined a large part of the Moslem world is to regress into the Stone Ages. I mean, come on...what in hell is going on with people that are still running around in these get-ups out of an Ali Baba movie? Then you have these way Orthodox wacko Jews still running around with their comical little hair ringlets, dreadlocks, or whatever they're called.

I wish all these people would just:

EVOLVE from their current states of IDIOTIC ANACHRONISM!

 

[IntenseOperator]

Looks like Cindy Sheehan has some company as people are starting to question why we are actually in Iraq and why the administration had and has no solid war plans in place for occupying the country.

What are we up to, three.

It's really starting to sound like a massive percentage of the 300 million or so Americans are speaking out hourly against the war.

 

[Master Capper]

What are we up to, three.

It's really starting to sound like a massive percentage of the 300 million or so Americans are speaking out hourly against the war.


Well that's the first three, but I was referring more to how the public opinion has really slid into the negative on Bush handling of Iraq.

 

[djv]

The last two polls back that up 60/40 against. I was so afraid Iraq could start to look and smell like Nam to the population. We need to change our approach now instead of waiting as we did in Nam.

 

[Palehose]

Wonder what the public would say if Everyday they did a piece on the over 300 confirmed Iraqi's that have named their child after GWB .

Or maybe if everyday they showed the 10's of thousand's of troops from all over the world handing out some of their personal belongings to the Children of Iraq with huge smiles on their faces.

Or how the Power plants in Bagdad have been upgraded to truley reliable power sources for the 1st time in the history of that country . (too bad their not bomb proof aye ?)

Its all how the Media paints the picture .

Gee I wonder if his approval rating will go up if or shall I say when we have another attack on US soil ? In light of what happend with Tony Blair after the last attacks in London IE : Approval rating Sky rocketed and over 80% polled want their own form of the Patriot act in London.

My guess is the Muslims will learn from that mistake and just leave it up to the Liberals and the Liberal Media to do the job for them .
very sad 60% of Americans have forgotton 9/11 or just never cared .... not I my friend not I !

 

[Palehose]

Get a grip DJV nobody and I mean nobody is so stupid to believe that that 58,000 Casualties = 2000 even you can rub your 2 brain cells together and figure that out . Nor can you compare a 1 in 17 casualtie rate to a 1 in 2000 rate .

Vietnam War Casualties
Estimating the number killed in the conflict is extremely difficult. Official records are hard to find or nonexistent and many of those killed were literally blasted to pieces by bombing. For many years the North Vietnamese suppressed the true number of their casualties for propaganda purposes. It is also difficult to say exactly what counts as a "Vietnam war casualty"; people are still being killed today by unexploded ordinance, particularly cluster bomblets. Environmental effects from chemical agents and the colossal social problems caused by a devastated country with so many dead surely caused many more lives to be shortened. In addition, the Khmer Rouge would probably not have come into power and committed their slaughters without the destabilization of the war, particularly of the American bombing campaigns to 'clear out the sanctuaries' in Cambodia.

The lowest casualty estimates, based on the now-renounced North Vietnamese statements, are around 1.5 million Vietnamese killed. Vietnam released figures on April 3, 1995 that a total of one million Vietnamese combatants and four million civilians were killed in the war. The accuracy of these figures has generally not been challenged. 58,226 American soldiers also died in the war or are missing in action. Australia lost almost 500 of the 47,000 troops they had deployed to Vietnam and New Zealand lost 38 soldiers.

In the aftermath of the war many Americans came to believe that some of the 2,300 American soldiers listed as "Missing in Action" had in fact been taken prisoner by the DRV and held indefinitely. "Missing in Action" is a term applied to missing soldiers whose status cannot be determined through eyewitness accounts of their death, or a body. While little credible evidence has been shown for this, images of tortured, emaciated prisoners of war (notably in the sequel to Rambo) continue to evoke anger among many Americans. The Vietnamese list over 200,000 of their own soldiers Missing in Action, and MIA soldiers from World War I and II continue to be unearthed in Europe.

Both during and after the war, significant human rights violations occurred. Both North and South Vietnamese had large numbers of political prisoners, many of whom were killed or tortured. In 1970, two American congressmen visiting South Vietnam discovered the existence of "tiger cages", which were small prison cells used for torturing South Vietnamese political prisoners. After the war, actions taken by the victors in Vietnam, including firing squads, torture, concentration camps and "re-education," led to the exodus of hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese. Many of these refugees fled by boat and thus gave rise to the phrase "boat people." They emigrated to Hong Kong, France, the United States, Canada, and other countries.

Many effects of the animosity and ill will generated during the Vietnam War are still felt today among those who lived through this turbulent time in American and Indochinese history.

American involvement in the war was a gradual process, as its military involvement increased over the years under successive U.S. presidents, both Democrat and Republican (including Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon), despite warnings by the American military leadership against a major ground war in Asia. There was never a formal declaration of war but there were a series of presidential decisions that increased the number of "military advisers" to the region. One of the first occurred on July 27, 1964 when 5,000 additional American military advisers were ordered sent to South Vietnam which brought the total number of US forces in Vietnam to 21,000.

Then on August 4, 1964 American destroyers USS Maddox and USS C. Turner Joy were attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin. Air support from the carrier USS Ticonderoga sinks two, possibly three North Vietnamese gunboats. The event was labeled the "Gulf of Tonkin incident" by reporters and the next day Operation Pierce Arrow was launched in retaliation; aircraft from the USS Ticonderoga and USS Constellation bombed North Vietnam.

 

[djv]

You missed the point Pale. I'm not talking about deaths. I'm talking about the mood the country slips in to. Some of us remember well we were around in 65 thru 73. Some forget we had folks in Nam in 58/59. It started slow. And went out of control starting 65. Everyone was ra ra for a while and then turned. I just don't want our great country to get to that point again. Nam grew out of control because of a president that had his head up his ass and would not listen to many advisers. Johnson was his name. And the one that followed called Nixon was not much better. And Bush is same way stubborn as hell.

 

[StevieD]

If this turns into a full scale Vietnam just depends on how bad Bush wants to save face. How many more American lives must we lose before the country realizes that no matter what we do there the outcome will be the same? More terrorists being made everyday. Rumsfeld himself said it could be 12 more years. So think of that when you look at yourt 6 or 7 or 10 year old kid. Of course the day he said that Cheney claimed the insurgency was on it's last legs. These are the guys who said they have WMD and we know were it is. These are the same people who were so wrong on that.

 

[Pujo21]

How much phucking money is BUSH gonna give these displace GAZA settlers ????????????

And then turn around and say we have no money for The Elderly for Social Security and Medical.

How many BILLIONS OF $$$$$$ is BUSH gonna give them????????????????

 

[Nosigar]

If this turns into a full scale Vietnam .....

:mj07: Shit, are you serious? Full scale VIETNAM??

Dude, did you know that in one week in Nam more americans died than in the whole post-war + actual war in Irak?

Damn, I understand the opposition to this half-ass war fought with one hand tied behind our backs, but don't compare like some ****ing false revisionist. Man, no wonder you poor slobs continue bottom feeding. :sadwave:

Damn, Stevie, I try to work with you sometimes but you give me no ground ....

 

[StevieD]

Nosigar, do you realize that we lost more soldiers in the first year of Iraq than we did in the first year of Nam? Wake up! Why do you blame the liberals for the way Bush and Co, are fighting this war? You don't even make any sense. Bush controls the house and the senate what liberal is stopping him from fighting the war the way he wants. Did you ever think maybe he is fighting it the way he wants to? If you stop and listen to what he says he is fighting it his way. He wants to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people and he is willing to spend American lives to do it. You either support that or you don't. I support American lives over Iraqi lives but apparently you don't.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

as before whats relevent with Viet Nam is the media and others beating the drum over a minority of disenters who lost there children---If you had 60% disenters as the left would like you to believe 1080 parents would currently joining protest.

Don't let them blow smoke up your ass with media polls--the majority of deaths occured before election--and you got THE REAL poll results at election time.

Quite amazing an element of our society is actually hoping for failure in Iraq. The media continues their drum beat-Have you read in any of their publications that oil output in Iraq is now at all time high--how many CNN episodes of schools going up and Gi's and Iraq'i comradery--If you want a better perspective change channels and cancel your NYT.
You
might want to venture up in general forum and see what our own soilder has to report 1st hand.

It never fails to amaze me that the majority of troops doing the work complain far less than the microsoft militia of the left.

As Bill Mahr (a liberal) even eluded to in interview with O'reilly last night-- What the far left fail to understand is war in Afgan and Iraq is not so much about 911 of 01 but 911's of the future.

interview
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,166106,00.html

in conlcusion
this Cindy chick says bush is greatest terrorist-is against war in Iraq and Afgan--is for the palestines against Isreal and liberals-and media are supporting her--so I quess since that is exactly what the terrorist and militant clergy preach also--then by product of association we have to lump them all in same catagory--CORRECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[djv]

Yes and they said we are fueling the 9/11's of the future because of Iraq. And we took our eyes off the main targets by doing so. I understand in todays New York Post O'Reilly states Rumshead should resign.

 

[kosar]

Wayne,

Since all you two guys do is bitch about the press, maybe you or gardenweasel could explain to the class exactly what we'd be doing differently if there was no such thing as the media?

 

[ferdville]

Lost in this thread is comment about the 2 billion Israel wants from us, on top of what we already give them, to sort out the Gaza strip mess. As Pujo so accurately mentioned, social security is on watch alert, education is a mess, medical care is a mess - but let's pony up another couple of billion here, then there, etc.

 

[ocelot]

Israel needs to get their grubby hands out of our pockets. I'm sick of Jews AND Arabs.

 

[LUX]

Quite amazing an element of our society is actually hoping for failure in Iraq.

Can you just clarify who this "element" is please? Are they hoping for failure or just trying to be realistic about our chances of success in turning that country into a democracy?