Death By Religion Part II

[WhatsHisNuts]

A disgusting tribute to the real power of prayer:

Parents charged in death of diabetic daughter

WESTON, Wisconsin (AP) -- Two parents who prayed as their 11-year-old daughter died of untreated diabetes were charged Monday with second-degree reckless homicide.


D.A. Jill Falstad announces charges against parents who didn't seek medical attention for a diabetic child.

Family and friends had urged Dale and Leilani Neumann to get help for their daughter, but the father considered the illness "a test of faith" and the mother never considered taking the girl to the doctor because she thought her daughter was under a "spiritual attack," the criminal complaint said.

"It is very surprising, shocking that she wasn't allowed medical intervention," Marathon County District Attorney Jill Falstad said. "Her death could have been prevented."

Madeline Neumann died March 23 -- Easter Sunday -- at her family's rural Weston home. Her parents were told the body would be taken to Madison for an autopsy the next day.

"They responded, 'You won't need to do that. She will be alive by then,"' the medical examiner wrote in a report.

An autopsy determined that Madeline died from undiagnosed diabetic ketoacidosis, which left her with too little insulin in her body. Court records said she likely had some symptoms of the disease for months. Watch prosecutors announce charges ?

The Neumanns each face up to 25 years in prison if convicted. The couple and their attorney did not immediately return messages left Monday by The Associated Press.

Falstad said the Neumanns have cooperated with investigators and are not under arrest. They have agreed to make an initial court appearance Wednesday, she said.

Randall Wormgoor, a friend of the Neumanns, told police that Dale Neumann led Bible studies at his business, Monkey Mo Coffee Shop, and believed physical illness was due to sin, curable by prayer and by asking for forgiveness from God, the complaint said.

Wormgoor said he and his wife, Althea, were at the Neumann home when Madeline -- -- called Kara by her parents -- died. Wormgoor said he had urged the father to seek medical help and was told the illness "was a test of faith for the Neumann family and asked the Wormgoors to join them in praying for Kara to get well," the complaint said.

Althea Wormgoor said she "implored" the parents to seek medical help for the girl, the complaint said.

Leilani Neumann, 40, told the AP previously she never expected her daughter to die. The family believes in the Bible, which says healing comes from God, but they have nothing against doctors, she said.

Dale Neumann, 46, a former police officer, has said he has friends who are doctors and started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

According to court documents, Leilani Neumann said in a written statement to police that she never considered taking the girl, who was being home-schooled, to a doctor.

"We just thought it was a spiritual attack and we prayed for her. My husband Dale was crying and mentioned taking Kara to the doctor and I said, 'The Lord's going to heal her,' and we continued to pray," she wrote.

The father told investigators he noticed his daughter was weak and slower for about two weeks but he attributed it to symptoms of the girl reaching puberty, the complaint said.

A day before Madeline died, according to the criminal complaint, the father wrote an e-mail with the headline, "Help our daughter needs emergency prayer!!!!." It said his daughter was "very weak and pale at the moment with hardly any strength."

The girl's grandmother, Evalani Gordon, told police that she learned her granddaughter could not walk or talk on March 22 and advised Leilani Neumann to take the girl to a doctor. Watch what the grandfather has to say ?

Gordon eventually contacted a daughter-in-law in California who called police on a non-emergency line to report the girl was in a coma and needed medical help. An ambulance was dispatched shortly before some friends in the home called 911 to report the girl had stopped breathing, authorities said.

One relative told police that the girl's mother believed she "died because the devil is trying to stop Leilani from starting her own ministry," the complaint said.

The Neumanns said they moved to Weston, a suburb of Wausau in central Wisconsin, from California about two years ago to open the coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. The couple has three other children, ages 13 to 16; they are living with relatives.

The family does not belong to an organized religion or faith, Leilani Neumann has said.

Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said the parents once belonged to the Lighthouse Pentecostal Church but later became what he called religious "isolationists" involved in a prayer group of five people.


"They have gone out on their own," he said. "... They have a very narrow view of Scripture and I would say not many people hold to that narrow of view."

In March, an Oregon couple who belong to a church that preaches against medical care and believes in treating illness with prayer were charged with manslaughter and criminal mistreatment in the death of their 15-month-old daughter. The toddler died March 2 of bronchial pneumonia and a blood infection that could have been treated with antibiotics, the state medical examiner's office said. E-mail to a friend

Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

 

[gardenweasel]

aren`t these the exceptions and not the rule?....is it fair to try and tar and feather christians with a few examples of extremism?....do the majority of christians do this?....

it`s not like this is modern christian doctrine that`s followed as a rule by all of the paritioners...

at least not like killing girls for fraternizing with the wrong religion...or honor killings...

or "murdering" a homosexual because they`re gay...

it`s not like hanging or stoning someone because of "apostacy"...

these are fringe kooks....

wouldn`t you agree...

 

[gardenweasel]

it`s past my bedtime...not trying to be contrary...just trying to offer up some context...

i agree religion taken to this extreme is akin to a sickness...

 

[BobbyBlueChip]

i agree religion taken to this extreme is akin to a sickness...

Atheism, too

 

[The Sponge]

Childish superstition: Einstein's letter makes view of religion relatively clear

Scientist's reply to sell for up to ?8,000, and stoke debate over his beliefs

* James Randerson, science correspondent
* The Guardian,
* Tuesday May 13 2008
* Article history

About this article
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This article appeared in the Guardian on Tuesday May 13 2008 . It was last updated at 02:38 on May 13 2008.
Albert Einstein

Albert Einstein, pictured in 1953. Photograph: Ruth Orkin/Hulton Archive/Getty Images

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." So said Albert Einstein, and his famous aphorism has been the source of endless debate between believers and non-believers wanting to claim the greatest scientist of the 20th century as their own.

A little known letter written by him, however, may help to settle the argument - or at least provoke further controversy about his views.

Due to be auctioned this week in London after being in a private collection for more than 50 years, the document leaves no doubt that the theoretical physicist was no supporter of religious beliefs, which he regarded as "childish superstitions".

Einstein penned the letter on January 3 1954 to the philosopher Eric Gutkind who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt. The letter went on public sale a year later and has remained in private hands ever since.

In the letter, he states: "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

Einstein, who was Jewish and who declined an offer to be the state of Israel's second president, also rejected the idea that the Jews are God's favoured people.

"For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."

The letter will go on sale at Bloomsbury Auctions in Mayfair on Thursday and is expected to fetch up to ?8,000. The handwritten piece, in German, is not listed in the source material of the most authoritative academic text on the subject, Max Jammer's book Einstein and Religion.

One of the country's leading experts on the scientist, John Brooke of Oxford University, admitted he had not heard of it.

Einstein is best known for his theories of relativity and for the famous E=mc2 equation that describes the equivalence of mass and energy, but his thoughts on religion have long attracted conjecture.

His parents were not religious but he attended a Catholic primary school and at the same time received private tuition in Judaism. This prompted what he later called, his "religious paradise of youth", during which he observed religious rules such as not eating pork. This did not last long though and by 12 he was questioning the truth of many biblical stories.

"The consequence was a positively fanatic [orgy of] freethinking coupled with the impression that youth is being deceived by the state through lies; it was a crushing impression," he later wrote.

In his later years he referred to a "cosmic religious feeling" that permeated and sustained his scientific work. In 1954, a year before his death, he spoke of wishing to "experience the universe as a single cosmic whole". He was also fond of using religious flourishes, in 1926 declaring that "He [God] does not throw dice" when referring to randomness thrown up by quantum theory.

His position on God has been widely misrepresented by people on both sides of the atheism/religion divide but he always resisted easy stereotyping on the subject.

"Like other great scientists he does not fit the boxes in which popular polemicists like to pigeonhole him," said Brooke. "It is clear for example that he had respect for the religious values enshrined within Judaic and Christian traditions ... but what he understood by religion was something far more subtle than what is usually meant by the word in popular discussion."

Despite his categorical rejection of conventional religion, Brooke said that Einstein became angry when his views were appropriated by evangelists for atheism. He was offended by their lack of humility and once wrote. "The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility."

 

[SixFive]

almost posted the same article last week, Gary. Those people are idiots and should be prosecuted for neglect. That's not Christianity; it's blatant stupidity.

 

[JCDunkDogs]

It was a tragic story. A good example of how everything should be taken in moderation; a good thing taken to the far extreme.

Someday, science will figure out the biological explanation for this whole "power of prayer" thing. However, the irony is that when that day comes, Religion will see an increase in popularity.

 

[dawgball]

Was this second story worthy of a second thread? Seems to me that it would have gone in your other religion bashing thread.

On that point, I think these stories are a wake up call to the Western world that all Muslims are not extremists, either. The majority of Muslims are not out to kill whitey (or blackey).

 

[Eddie Haskell]

Weasel:

Why don't you and Wayne apply that same philosophy to lawyers? Everytime you see a story about a lawyer doing something wacko you seem to take it as an indictment on all attorneys.

Eddie

 

[ImFeklhr]

I read an interesting article that suggested that despite the "numerous" spontaneous remissions that have occurred in cancer patients visiting Lourdes in France (or one of those type of places), the overall rate was still higher in the population as a whole.

i.e. spontaneous remissions occur at a statistically higher rate if you don't go to Lourdes.

Not that that has much to do with this post.

 

[The Sponge]

Weasel:

Why don't you and Wayne apply that same philosophy to lawyers? Everytime you see a story about a lawyer doing something wacko you seem to take it as an indictment on all attorneys.

Eddie

In their defense Eddie, im not sure this would be talked about on Fox. Those segments are saved for Lawyers,unions,blacks,a handful of anti military people. and the Aclu. Faith, insurance companies, oil companies and billionaires (except Soros) are off limits.

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

On that point, I think these stories are a wake up call to the Western world that all Muslims are not extremists, either. The majority of Muslims are not out to kill whitey (or blackey).

I'm glad you brought this point up. The Weasel is quick to note that this is simply a story of radical christians...what about the radical muslim angle? Most muslims are not terrorist nutjobs, but he doesn't make that distinction....but if I point out crazy christians, the difference is easy to point out.

 

[WhatsHisNuts]

almost posted the same article last week, Gary. Those people are idiots and should be prosecuted for neglect. That's not Christianity; it's blatant stupidity.

Clint: I'm glad to see we're on the same page. I'm looking forward to seeing you again at the golf outing.

PS: I read some internet schtuff about Flavius Josephus, and think I have a grip on where you are going to come from on that one and I think we will end up talking in circles on it. If you want to walk through it, start a post and I'll tell you what I think (based on the single source I read).