Enough Already!

Turfgrass

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These ?do we really need a tax cut? polls are completely meaningless. Not only that, but they?re dangerous.

The principle thing that bothers me about polls is that they are based on a ?majority rules? premise. The news organizations who conduct these polls seem to be telling us that ?this is the way the majority of people in this country think, so this is the way things ought to be.? Our founding fathers recognized the dangers of mob rule; we have forgotten that lesson.

Now, specifically addressing these ?do we need a tax cut? polls. Politicians, and I?m talking Democrats and Republicans here, have been working diligently for decades to shift the burden of taxes to a small, high-achieving minority of income earners. For all practical purposes all federal income taxes in this country are paid by less than 50% of income earners. The vast bulk of income taxes, over 80%, are paid by just 30% of workers. The other 70% are, more often than not, beneficiaries in one way or another of the money that is seized from the 30%. So, what do you think you?re going to hear when you go out there and ask these people if we need tax cuts? Tax cuts? Hell, I?m not paying taxes anyway! Why would I say we need tax cuts?

The reality is that George Bush?s tax cut proposals would put thousands of dollars back into the pockets of the individuals who actually earned that money ? the top 30% of income earners. And just what would they do with that money? Would they stuff it in a sock and hide it behind the washer? Hardly. They would either invest it or spend it. Either way, our economy would grow. Economic growth would mean more manufacturing. More manufacturing would mean more jobs. More jobs would benefit who? Those on the lower end of the income scale who are suffering from layoffs and wage stagnation, that?s who. Trouble is, the very people who would benefit from the increased economic growth that would come from Bush?s tax cut are people who are too economically illiterate to recognize it.

One more problem with these useless polls is the way the questions are worded. I kid you not ? some of these ?Do we need a tax cut? polls have asked questions like ?Do you favor the Presidents tax cut proposals which would mostly benefit the wealthiest Americans?? Or how about ?Do you think the congress should refuse to pass the President?s tax cut and spend that money on shoring up Social Security and Medicare instead??

Let?s get rid of these idiotic polls and concentrate on some real news and information
 

StevieD

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I have to disagree with some of this tax talk. There is a reason why 80% of the taxes are paid by 20% of the people. It is because 80% of the money is earned by 20% of the people.
These people make the bulk of the money they should pay the bulk of the taxes. Giving them more disposable income is a waste. They all ready have millions saved. They are not going to go out and spend the tax cut. They are going to sock it away. If you give the tax cut to the regular working stiff he is going to spend it. He is going to take that vacation, or buy that new car or refridgerator. The money given to the working stiff will end up back in the economy and create jobs not the other way around.
 

djv

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Its so easy but they always make it hard as hell. All you have to do is everyone pays no pay roll tax on there first 10 grand made each year. Ok those who still dont make 10 grand still are in same boat. So what. In many cases these are part timers anyway. So they get buy with out the tax to. everyone has more bucks to spend. Economy has instant boost.
And for a little extra unemployment reduction. All business that add on people. Keep them at least one year. Get that same amount reduction on there overall tax base.
 

taoist

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I would have to agree with Turfgrass.... The points he made are valid and well said.


Here's a point that most folks forget.... You have to PAY taxes in order to get a tax cut.... The folks in the lower income brackets actually get subsidized by our government...where does our government get the money to subsidize these people? ...from the people in the upper income brackets. This is our government's attempt to re-allocate the wealth in this country...and it sickens me!

Also, I have to disagree that by giving these cuts to the people that 1.) make the most income and 2.) pay the majority of taxes...that they wiull "sock it away." By all accounts, they will reinvest it in the economy....


...all of this talk about re-allocation of wealth makes me sick to my stomach. If you don't have the "get up and go" to make your own fortune in this great country, you certainly don't deserve to have our government hand it to you on a silver platter.... On the same theme, those folks that do go out and make their way through their own sweat and hard work, do not derserve to have it taken away and given to someone with their hand held out. This is America, not Sweeden.... ;)
 

djv

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Taoist my way above is simple. It helps nor hurts anyone. Those who dont pay still would not. Chit we have so many people in this country running part tme jobs now days. There never going to pay much tax anyway. Many are in College. Chit get them thru school to good paying jobs where they can pay some taxes to help all of us.
 

Chanman

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StevieD- Good to 'see' you back@ the keyboards. I see we are on different sides of the fence again. I agree w/djv the most on this post.

''It is because 80% of the money is earned by 20% of the people. These people make the bulk of the money they should pay the bulk of the taxes. Giving them more disposable income is a waste. They all ready have millions saved. They are not going to go out and spend the tax cut. They are going to sock it away. If you give the tax cut to the regular working stiff he is going to spend it."

Underline the word 'earned.' I am all for that paradigm here@ MadJack's. Spread the wealth! Then we all can spend more on the sponsors making more $ for MadJack's site. I know this analogy is a little off-base, but this seems to be the same old song & dance. The Govt is wasteful enough- not to mention the current situation here in CA. I agree that Enron and others of their ilk should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but redistributing the $ will not solve the problem- only placate the masses for a short time. look forward to your response w/an open mind. :)
 

Turfgrass

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The solution is simple.

Reform the tax system by getting rid of the income tax, repealing the income tax amendment and moving to a national retail sales tax. You can find out everything you want to know by studying the website for Americans for Fair Taxation at http://www.fairtax.org.
 

marine

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So Stevie,
Do you think we would be better off if instead of everyone getting their own paycheck we just take everyone's money and put it in a big pot and then cut people checks based on their expenses?
You know, show your gas/cable/electric bill etc, then the federal worker totals it up and you get enuff to cover it and maybe a few extra bucks to take the ole lady out to dinner once a month?

that way everyone gets their fair share. right?

What the hell ever happened to the "American Dream"? You know, the one where you start out your life and bust your hump working 75 hours a week so you can save up some money to get married, buy a house, have two kids, and get a solid career with a better salary so you can afford nicer things because you spent the time in school studying and working rather than partying?

Should the responsible people of this country really be punished with excess taxes because they worked harder and set themselves up for success?
Life is a series of choices. YOU make the decision to shoot heroin, YOU make the decision to spend your paycheck on whiskey and whores, YOU make the decision to not study in college and spend the time protesting the very government that is giving you federal grants to go to college and try and make something of your life. YOU make the decision to have unprotected sex, get pregnant, have 3 kids with three different men and then have the audacity to whine about how you do not get enuff in social security and welfare to support yourself?!!!!

Where is MY incentive to work? What should I say to myself everyday to keep me going to work? Why can't IIIIIIII sit home on the couch and collect welfare like some people do? WHY should I go to work everyday and work OT and get a second job when it only means I will pay more in taxes to support the ass clown that drinks the day away?
 

StevieD

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I am not talking about people who are subsidised by the government. I am talking about hard working people. People who go to work, raise a family etc. If you give them an extra thousand dollars they are going to spend it. If you give someone who all ready has a million in the bank another million who cares. He ain't gonna say "Hey Ma, the government check came in now we can buy that new refridgerator!" He all ready has bought everything he wants and needs.
I don't want to turn this into a rich vs poor thing. But giving even more money to the all ready rich will not generate more income. That is just wrong.
 

taoist

The Sage
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Turfgrass said:
The solution is simple.

Reform the tax system by getting rid of the income tax, repealing the income tax amendment and moving to a national retail sales tax. You can find out everything you want to know by studying the website for Americans for Fair Taxation at http://www.fairtax.org.


...this I cannot agree with. We had some great discussions a while back regarding the tax system, so I won't repeat all of that here, but a national sales tax wouldn't bring in the revenue and would put an extraordinary burden on the middle class taxpayer.

Although I haven't been to the website that you posted and don't have the time right at the moment, I assure you that I will give you the benefit of the doubt and check it out, as I'm always open to new points of view.... So, please take the above statement with a grain of salt. It's just that from my studies in economics, I don't think that a national sales tax would work....

I agree that we need tax reform, but every system has its pitfalls.

p.s. If anyone comes in here with the inevitable "what we need is a flat tax," I will pull my hair out and refer them to our previous discussions.... :nono:
 

marine

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But in reality, you are not "giving more money to the rich" You are simply letting them keep what they rightfully earned.

Same with the lesser income folks, you are not "giving them money" you are just letting them keep more of what they spend 40 hours a week earning.

as for the "millionaire" stereotype... not all of the "rich" are millionaires. If you make over $70,000 a year you are considered in that 20% bracket that pays the bulk of the taxes.
 

Turfgrass

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We begin with a statistic that should jolt you right out of your seat. Have you ever stopped to consider just how many cumulative hours are spent across this entire country every year just handling the paperwork associated with the federal income tax? American businesses will spend about 3.4 billion man-hours doing tax paperwork this year. Individuals will spend another 1.7 billion man-hours. These figures represent 3 million people working full time all year just to do tax preparation work. Now --- get this. It takes more man-hours in this country to pay federal income taxes than it does to build every car, van and truck produced in this country during the same year. (Money Magazine)
 

Turfgrass

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Where does your tax money go? Try this: Between 1986 and 1998 the IRS spent $5 billion of your money on a computer system that they were never able to get to work. Five Billion ? that?s with a ?B?.
 

Turfgrass

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Taxes now comprise 31% of the cost of a loaf of bread, 30% of the cost of a hotel room and 43% of the cost of a bottle of beer. (Money Magazine)
 

Turfgrass

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Government must be reduced to its constitutionally appropriate size. Neither Republicans nor Democrats are up to the task.
 

taoist

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Turfgrass said:
Government must be reduced to its constitutionally appropriate size. Neither Republicans nor Democrats are up to the task.


...those were some interesting facts, but this was my favorite statement. I would consider myself a Libertarian...and although I forget who said it, one of my favorite quotes regarding the government....


"There's no government like no government." ;)
 
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