Hilliary on Iraq

DOGS THAT BARK

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Hilliary on Iraq

2002
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON, D-N.Y.: So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interest of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war. It is a vote at that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our president. And we say to him, use these powers wisely and as a last resort. And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein, this is your last chance, disarm or be disarmed.

2004--
"I don't regret giving the president the authority because at the time it was in the context of weapons of mass destruction, grave threats to the United States. And clearly Saddam Hussein had been a real problem for he international community for more than a decade."

2007
Nearly four years ago, our president rushed us into war in Iraq. If I had been president in October of 2002, I would have never asked for authority to divert our attention from Afghanistan to Iraq. And I certainly would never have started this war.

Did anyone see her live on this last one--did she throw in the ole :nono: for good measure :)
 
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Nothing is so admirable in politics as a short memory.


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Old School

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In politics you must always keep running with the pack. The moment that you falter and they sense that you are injured, the rest will turn on you like wolves.


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StevieD

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Hilliary on Iraq

2002
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON, D-N.Y.: So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interest of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war. It is a vote at that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our president. And we say to him, use these powers wisely and as a last resort. And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein, this is your last chance, disarm or be disarmed.

2004--
"I don't regret giving the president the authority because at the time it was in the context of weapons of mass destruction, grave threats to the United States. And clearly Saddam Hussein had been a real problem for he international community for more than a decade."

2007
Nearly four years ago, our president rushed us into war in Iraq. If I had been president in October of 2002, I would have never asked for authority to divert our attention from Afghanistan to Iraq. And I certainly would never have started this war.

Did anyone see her live on this last one--did she throw in the ole :nono: for good measure :)

At the very least she has learned the error of her ways. Unlike some who still maintain that the invasion was the correct thing to do.
 

Chadman

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I have read all three quotations. I can see how each one can be accurate and acceptable, individually, and as a group.

2002: "we say to him, use these powers wisely and as a last resort." (In my opinion, this situation was far from a last resort, and clearly the administration has not used his power wisely.)

2004: "because at the time it was in the context of weapons of mass destruction." (The context manufactured by the administration - that the President has since admitted was a false pretense.)

2007: "I would have never asked for authority to divert our attention from Afghanistan to Iraq. And I certainly would never have started this war." (I fully believe both of these statements, and nothing she said before in either year says otherwise.)

You're up, my friend.
 

The Sponge

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I have read all three quotations. I can see how each one can be accurate and acceptable, individually, and as a group.

2002: "we say to him, use these powers wisely and as a last resort." (In my opinion, this situation was far from a last resort, and clearly the administration has not used his power wisely.)

2004: "because at the time it was in the context of weapons of mass destruction." (The context manufactured by the administration - that the President has since admitted was a false pretense.)

2007: "I would have never asked for authority to divert our attention from Afghanistan to Iraq. And I certainly would never have started this war." (I fully believe both of these statements, and nothing she said before in either year says otherwise.)

You're up, my friend.

Chad i can't back her unless im forced to. Out of any democrat she should have had the most knowledge about this subject. Her husband was president so im sure they talked about this. I find it amazing, me at home knew this Bush team was a bunch of corrupt criminals but her, Kerry, Biden and the rest didn't. Its right there in history of this rotten familiy but they couldn't see it? To me this shows no foresight at all. She knew the family connections with the Carlyle group. She knew Cheney's connections with Halliburton but instead of voting no and trying to explain why she took the easy road and voted yes. People like Dean, Fingold, Dennis K, and even Obama knew this was a crock of shit from the get go. I don't even care for people who apologize like Edwards. He is an attorney who ran against these thieves and even in his debate he talk about Cheney's ties to Halliburton but he to voted for it. I like to see one freaking politician vote against the popular thing to do and then go the hell out there and explain why instead of sitting on their vocal cords. I don't know if you read a post of mine about a week ago but what dog just posted is what i was talking about Fox swift boating of Hillary. When you see this and these words coming out of her mouth its damaging. You could do this with a lot of people but Fox always forgets about the Republicans. I never could figure out why since its a fair and balanced station.:nono:
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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You're up, my friend.

I am forced to take things literaly--unless it can be proven otherwise--Chad

In addition most projected she would sprint from the middle to the left if necessary--and can't say i see it any other way.

I will say one thing--interview only show one quote per time period--would have liked to seen entire transcript to make sure those doing the reporting weren't doing the ole half quote out of context routine.

Was trying to relocate link to put up and found this other article from Wall Street Journal--it clears up a few points--
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009637

Hillary on Iraq
From stalwart hawk to get out fast.

Thursday, February 8, 2007 12:01 a.m. EST

One pleasant surprise of Hillary Rodham Clinton's tenure as New York Senator has been her tough-minded approach on national security. She responded to 9/11 by supporting President Bush's strategy of taking on not just terrorists but the states that harbor them. She also voted for the war in Iraq and has refused to follow much of her party in alleging that Mr. Bush "lied" about weapons of mass destruction.

But as Mrs. Clinton bids to win the Democratic Presidential nomination, she is taking a marked turn to the left. Pressured by other candidates and by her party's left wing, she is walking back her hawkish statements and is now all but part of the antiwar camp. The polls show her to be the favorite to be the next Commander in Chief, so what she really believes, and how firmly she'll stick to it, deserves to be debated. Here's a summary of the arc of Mrs. Clinton's public thinking on Iraq:

? October 10, 2002. Mrs. Clinton addresses the Senate on the use-of-force resolution. "The facts that have brought us to this fateful vote are not in doubt," she declares, citing Saddam's record of using chemical weapons, the invasion of Kuwait, and his history of deceiving U.N. weapons inspectors. "As a result, President Clinton, with the British and others, ordered an intensive four-day air assault, Operation Desert Fox, on known and suspected weapons of mass destruction sites and other military targets," she continues, adding that Saddam "has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members."

While she expresses her preference for working through the U.N. if possible, she adds, "I believe the authority to use force to enforce that mandate is inherent in the original 1991 U.N. resolution, as President Clinton recognized when he launched Operation Desert Fox in 1998."

? December 15, 2003. It is clear by now that no large stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction will be found in Iraq. But Mrs. Clinton tells the Council on Foreign Relations that "Yesterday was a good day. I was thrilled that Saddam Hussein had finally been captured. . . . We owe a great debt of gratitude to our troops, to the President, to our intelligence services, to all who had a hand in apprehending Saddam. Now he will be brought to justice."

She adds, "I was one who supported giving President Bush the authority, if necessary, to use force against Saddam Hussein. I believe that that was the right vote." As for Iraq's prospects, she declares herself "a little optimistic and a little pessimistic . . . We have no option but to stay involved and committed."

? April 20, 2004. Mrs. Clinton tells Larry King: "I don't regret giving the President the authority because at the time it was in the context of weapons of mass destruction, grave threats to the United States, and clearly, Saddam Hussein had been a real problem for the international community for more than a decade." Asked whether she thinks she was "fooled," she replies: "The consensus was the same, from the Clinton Administration to the Bush Administration. It was the same intelligence belief that our allies and friends around the world shared about the weapons of mass destruction."

? October 2005. Antiwar fervor on the left is picking up, and activist Cindy Sheehan compares her to Rush Limbaugh after Mrs. Clinton tells the Village Voice: "My bottom line is that I don't want their sons to die in vain. . . . I don't believe it's smart to set a date for withdrawal . . . I don't think it's the right time to withdraw."

? November 2005. Mrs. Clinton posts a letter to constituents that marks her first dovish turn. "If Congress had been asked [to authorize the war], based on what we know now, we never would have agreed," she writes. But invoking retired General Eric Shinseki's estimate of more American troops necessary to pacify Iraq, she demands not withdrawal but a new plan: "It is time for the President to stop serving up platitudes and present us with a plan for finishing this war with success and honor--not a rigid timetable that terrorists can exploit, but a public plan for winning and concluding the war."

? August 3, 2006. Mrs. Clinton calls for Donald Rumsfeld to resign as Defense Secretary, asking for "new leadership that would give us a fighting chance to turn the situation around before it's too late."

? December 18, 2006. Her march left gains speed. On NBC's "Today" show, Mrs. Clinton renounces her war vote unequivocally for the first time: "I certainly wouldn't have voted that way."

? January 13, 2007. From Baghdad, Mrs. Clinton responds to Mr. Bush's plan to send more troops to Iraq to secure Baghdad: "I don't know that the American people or the Congress at this point believe this mission can work. And in the absence of a commitment that is backed up by actions from the Iraqi government, why should we believe it?"

? January 17, 2007. Mrs. Clinton calls for capping the number of U.S. troops in Iraq, saying she will introduce legislation to do so. And while she says she won't block money for the troops, she suggests withholding funds for the Iraqi government. It is precisely such a funds cut-off to the South Vietnamese government in 1975 that led to the final U.S. flight from Saigon.

? January 27, 2007. On the campaign trail in Iowa, Mrs. Clinton demands that President Bush "extricate our country from this before he leaves office." And she promises that, if elected, she will end the war quickly.

All politicians change their minds about something at some point, but what's troubling about Mrs. Clinton's record on Iraq is that it tends to follow, rather than lead, public opinion. When the war was first debated, and she couldn't easily walk away from her husband's record against Saddam, she was a solid, even eloquent, hawk. Then for a time she laid low and avoided the antiwar excesses of John Kerry and others.

But now that the war has proven to be difficult, and her fellow Democrats are outflanking her on the antiwar left, she is steadily, even rapidly, moving in their direction. So in the space of merely 14 months and as the Presidential campaign begins in earnest, Mrs. Clinton has gone from advocating a new plan to "win" the Iraq war, with "honor," to vocally opposing President Bush's new strategy to try to do precisely that. And, oh, yes, she now wants the "surge" to be in Afghanistan instead of Iraq.

The question we'd ask is whether this is the kind of stalwart drift that Mrs. Clinton would bring to the Oval Office?
 

Chadman

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I would allow that a person in her position, facing intense scrutiny and an ongoing positioning for political approval, probably would need to move a little on important issues from time to time. Some might call it being flexible. She is clearly modifying her statements to best position herself in the race, and has been doing that all along. You can criticize her for that, and will. I think democrats in general have had a tough time standing up for what they believe in until it became clear that this was an absolute failure.

Considering that many republicans and conservatives have changed their position on this war, and now favor a different approach, I think you have to be careful what you call into question. I guess all of those people are unworthy of a vote, too?

I think for the most part, her statements flow fairly sensibly, even the long version.

But you do bring up a good point. There are some top democratic candidates that have been more consistent in saying this was a bad idea, stuck with that, and deserve more credit than other dems and nearly every republican. I was against it from the start, have said so all along, so I should give that a lot of weight when making my personal voting decision. I am not a one issue voter, as I personally think that is sort of selfish and simplistic, but to each their own.
 

StevieD

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no i don't think that's it....she's pandering for the left's vote....

Look up Bush's qoutes about Iraq. Those are the only ones that count. Count how many times he has lied about how the war was going and what our plan should be. Hillary voted to give the liar the authority to attack if necessary. She now regrets it. What is the big deal you are trying to make out of this? And why do you not hold Bush and Co. feet to the fire based on what they have said. How about Cheney? He has said a few things too.
 

AR182

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Look up Bush's qoutes about Iraq. Those are the only ones that count. Count how many times he has lied about how the war was going and what our plan should be. Hillary voted to give the liar the authority to attack if necessary. She now regrets it. What is the big deal you are trying to make out of this? And why do you not hold Bush and Co. feet to the fire based on what they have said. How about Cheney? He has said a few things too.

stevie...

don't get me wrong....all politicians pander...however some do it better than others....
 

StevieD

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stevie...

don't get me wrong....all politicians pander...however some do it better than others....

I understand but some of you guys who are Pro Iraq like to point out when someone changes their mind. I would be worried about her, or anyone, who still thinks this Iraq thing was is good for the country. McCain claims that Rumsfeld will go down as one of the worst Sec of Defense. Who is he pandering too?
 

AR182

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I understand but some of you guys who are Pro Iraq like to point out when someone changes their mind. I would be worried about her, or anyone, who still thinks this Iraq thing was is good for the country. McCain claims that Rumsfeld will go down as one of the worst Sec of Defense. Who is he pandering too?

steveie....

here is an interesting artilce from salon on mccain...

Which side am I on?

As John McCain eyes the White House in '08, he is at war with himself over Bush's escalation in Iraq.

By Mark Benjamin


Feb. 20, 2007 | WASHINGTON -- John McCain took to the Senate floor early this month while his colleagues were debating whether to debate a resolution condemning President Bush's plan to send nearly 21,500 more troops into Iraq. The senior Republican lawmaker has served as a proxy for Bush in the fight over the surge, and his argument on Feb. 6 fit the bill. McCain took on Majority Leader Harry Reid, who was leading the charge to pass the nonbinding resolution, with a simple message: If you believe the surge will fail, you are telling U.S. troops they will fail.

"I talked to many men and women in the military in recent days, ranking from private to general," McCain said, seeking to wrap his position in fidelity to the troops. "Isn't it true that most of them, if you had the opportunity to talk to them, would say: 'When they do not support my mission, they do not support me?'" McCain later said that the resolution might as well read: "I don't think you are going to succeed."

A war veteran and presidential contender for 2008, McCain seemed to be squarely in the president's corner during the Senate debate.

In fact, McCain has increasingly hedged his position on the surge, showing full support for Bush's plan one moment and then pivoting at another moment to point out grievous tactical errors he says are being made by the White House. For example, in front of a conservative audience at the American Enterprise Institute in January, McCain said that while the president was sending the minimum number of soldiers to Baghdad needed to make the plan work, the plan would indeed work. Then, on the Senate floor on Feb. 8, he announced that he was "very doubtful that we have enough troops" there to get the job done. Furthermore, while Bush agreed to an unconventional arrangement in which command for the surge will be split between U.S. and Iraqi military leaders, McCain warned the Senate Armed Services Committee on Jan. 23 that he knew of "no successful military operation where you have dual command." He has also suggested the Iraqis might not contribute adequately in the operation to secure Baghdad.

Political observers say McCain isn't just worried about military tactics. By simultaneously endorsing the surge and harshly criticizing certain aspects of the Bush plan as potentially disastrous, McCain appears to be hedging his bets should the surge fail. "He is looking for an exit strategy if it does not work," said Stephen Wayne, a political science professor at Georgetown University. "It says: 'You just did not do it right, Mr. President.'"

McCain's support for the escalation is consistent with his long-held belief that the United States has been short on troops in Iraq from the beginning. But some political observers have noted that it also buttresses McCain's recent, sometimes awkward efforts to cozy up to the GOP's conservative base before the upcoming Republican primaries.

It could be a risky gambit, pitting him against the broader general electorate, which, polls show, is opposed to the surge. "McCain is really in a tough position at the moment," noted Wayne. "If the surge fails and McCain is attached to it, it is going to be very difficult to run in the general election."

At times, McCain has come across as one of the Senate's harshest critics of the surge plan's tactics, stopping just short of predicting failure in Baghdad. He has certainly been far more critical of its tactical aspects than Bush's other main ally in the Senate, Connecticut's Joe Lieberman, who has stuck to unflagging endorsements of Bush's war policy.

Should Bush's plan fail, observers say, McCain is positioning himself as the man who would have had the right plan to win the war. "That is the way he is going to sell it," explained Michele Swers, a political science professor at Georgetown. "He would have done it right."

But this approach clouds McCain's argument that doubters of the surge don't support the troops. Other lawmakers -- including some Republicans -- have opposed the surge in part because they worry that the plan will fail. They say the best way to support the troops is to encourage the president to pursue other initiatives they believe are more likely to salvage the situation, including a renewed diplomatic effort in the region. "A surge was already tried in Baghdad last fall, and it failed," Jim Ramstad, R-Minn., stated on the House floor last Wednesday. "It's time for a surge in diplomacy, not a surge in troops, to mend a broken country."

In a brief interview just outside the Senate chamber last Tuesday, McCain sought to draw a distinction between his concerns about possible failure and the concerns of his colleagues who oppose the surge altogether. "They are saying that it will fail, because if you thought it would succeed, obviously, you would support it," McCain explained. "I think it can succeed. I believe it will," he said. "But I am by no means sure. As I've said, there are many uncertainties here."

That outlook contrasts with McCain's message when he and Lieberman established themselves as Bush's tag team on the surge during the January event at the American Enterprise Institute. Ensconced in a plush suite along with some of the White House's ideological kin, McCain argued there was a parallel between those opposed to the Baghdad plan and American isolationists prior to World War I. He also referenced the unconscionable failure to act early against fascism before World War II. He even added a bit of stump-speech flair: "I am of the firm belief that the United States and the West and our values and our principles are still transcendent," he said. "Our best days are still ahead of us."
 
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