Human shields-turned-hawks

theGibber1

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love these stories about appeasement activists and human shield types who come back home from Iraq with their eyes bugging out like a stomped-on bullfrog.

lol

that makes two of us
 

dr. freeze

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a must read for any peacenik.....

local TV here in Houston portrayed a local Iraqi doctor who has a private practice in southern Houston suburb.....dude couldn't believe that we actually had people protesting against this thing...

he said the people will be executed if they are seen being friendly to Americans by secret police of Saddam who are engrained with the people....thus the soemtimes not-so-warm reception we are getting....
 

TheShrimp

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There's just no denying there are millions of Iraqis that want Saddam out of power. Just keep in mind when you hear them speak that . . .

1. Some of them are Shiites, who want the power the Sunnis have and would be no more righteous in his place.

2. There are simply people in every country that want their leader gone, especially despotic leaders. They're easy to find.

3. There are plenty of Iraqis that either want Saddam to stay in power, or at least don't think that the US should be in there throwing him out.

4. You can still accept that a lot of Iraq wants Saddam gone and not accept that America should invade and bomb and set up a new regime. This war could go as pretty as a peach and every Iraqi could be hunky-dory with the results when its all done, but that still doesn't mean we're right to set the precedent of invading a country that has done nothing to us, kill army and civilian, and set up a new government.

Some of us think that's bad bad policy no matter how stanky the leader of said country is.
 

just cover

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shrimp-

Why don't you make a copy of all your posts along with Stevie D, Eddie Haskle, tony steams, Hoops and show them to the troops when they come home and see what they say about it. I wonder if they will appreciate it.

Now before all you bleeding hearts go off on your little " I have the right speak my mind" YES YOU DO HAVE THE RIGHT because of our government. Our government isn't perfect but it is the best IMO in the world.

I wish some of you people who constantly bash the government and the policies would have tried living in Baghdad(before the first gulf war) and question their government. I wonder how long many of you still be alive. ALOT of people around here should be thankful for what they got.

jc
 

ssd

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Shrimp:
Some of the points you make are valid. However, why is it that you continue to defend Saddam and his regime? This is not a pre-emptive attack; it is a resumption of hostilities. War was stopped in '91 after Saddam agreed to several UN resolutions which he has not kept. Eleven years of diplomacy did not work. Many Middle Eastern nations still believe in Hammurabi's code: "An eye for an eye" ...they understand force and nothing else. Obviously, Saddam does as he has continually disobeyed the UN sanctions because there has been no threat of force behind them. Were you marching for civil rights for the Iraqis when he gassed the Kurds? Were you up in arms with the celebrities when he kills his own citizens? Were you against the Iraq / Iran conflict that killed over one million people and left thousands of children orphans? Forty thousand children died in Iraq last year from malnutrition yet Saddam is worth over 2 billion personally. There are basic human freedoms and rights that each person on this earth is entitled to. The Iraqis have been deprived of those rights. If nothing else comes of this but the liberation of those people, then I think the conflict was justified. If in three years, they have their own government and they kick the US out, fine. The deserve the chance to self-govern. To share the wealth of their country. to enjoy the unalienable rights that each person is entitled.
A great man once said these words. A lot of it is still fitting today. Pray for the soldiers; the ones who have made the greatest sacrifice and for the ones who may.
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to theproposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged ina great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion--that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
 

ChrryBlstr

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first off, let me preface this by saying that i LOVE all the freedoms i have and other than toronto, the only other cities i would even consider living in are NYC, san fran, montreal and sydney, aus....all democratic places....BUT....i have a few questions that probably have no definitive answers....questions that have been bothering me about this war....so....i'll ask anyways....

1) if this war is indeed about geting rid of hussein and all his WMDs....at what cost....i mean....we're doing this to prevent him from attacking us/others....sparing the lives of our innocents....BUT....what about THEIR civilians....isn't the death of even ONE innocent iraqi civilian because of the war a travesty in itself....or....are our lives worth more than than theirs....and when they do get killed....do we just chalk it up as a casualty of war and say sorry and that's that???

i know some will say that hussein has no regard and is killing his own people....BUT....what about a little girl that he would NOT have killed if we didn't initiate this war....one that we blew up accidentally....what about her???

2) what guarantees do we have that the person to replace hussein isn't himself as corrupt and not a madman???

3) what right do we have to impose our democratic ideals and values upon these people....i mean....WE love freedom in the west....we were born into it....we're accustomed to it....it's what we value....BUT....what about those that don't accept our way of life....do we change theirs and expect them to come to love ours???

remember....these people have been living under these conditions for centuries....are we so arrogant to believe that we're right and they're wrong and that they don't know what's good for them???



i'm sure that i'll think of some other questions as this war goes on....and hopefully....this is adding something to the forum contrary to sportsaholic's belief that i add absolutely nothing to this place!!!

anyways....what's wrong in wishing my buds good luck and congratulating them for having a winning day?!!!

:thefinger
 
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Skanoochies

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Hey Cherryblister, how how dare you leave out the no 1 City in the world, VANCOUVER B.C. You should be ashamed! But then again you probably cheer for the Maple Laughs so I kinda understand.:D :D :D :D

Have a good day,


Skanoochies.
 

ChrryBlstr

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HELL NO....i be a flyer's fan first....*LOL*

LOVE vancouver....just HATE all the rain!!!

no offense intended....just my preference, is all!!!

:)
 

Hoops

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Just Cover- First off, the term 'bleeding heart' usual is associated with liberal. I'm a registered Republican who has never voted for democratic legislation or a democratic candidate in my life. This isn't a case of republican or democrat or bleeding hearts or whatever..it's a case of disagreeing with the decision to go to war in Iraq, and that is a personal decision made by looking at the situation objectively.

How about those people currently living in Somalia, North Korea, etc.? I would take it that since we are now 'liberating' other countries, those would be next on our list. They are under dictatorship rule and have little or no freedoms, human rights are violated, etc.

Or since we are fighting the war on terrorism, the Saudi ties to Al-Queda should lead us into an invasion there. Or Pakistan has WMD, including nuclear weapons, along with an unstable governemnt, that should be on the hit list as well.

But for some reason I don't think we will be doing jack shit in regards to those countries. Whether it be due to politics, just as the French have their own vested interests in Iraq, we have the same in Saudi Arabia and we won't even think of setting foot there. North Korea, China, Pakistan...we won't do anything there because those are battles we can't win in the long run. So instead we choose Iraq.

Didn't hear anything about the non-compliance until after 9/11. Promises were made that and Iraq/Al-Queda connection would be established...still haven't seen that. It's a country half a world away that has never initiated any type of attack against the United States. WE were the ones got him into power, funneled funds into this regime, gave him the WMD. What the hell has he been doing since the first Gulf War? The usual inside his own country, but not much else. And what he does in his country is beyond hideous. Same can be said for other leaders currently in power. Are we going after them? I would hope so if we are now in the business of 'liberating'..at least be consistent. People like him should not be 'leading' countries. So why did we put him in there in the first place? For our own interests in the Middle East. Turn a blind eye until he doesn't serve a purpose any longer.

I'm all for getting him out of there. But you can't tell me, even if it does sound like something out of a movie, that we can't in some way, shape, have him and his sons assissinated, whether it be from the inside or whatever, I have a hard time believing that could not happen. Especially since we are breaking international law as is by declaring war on Iraq and essentially assissinating them anyway, but at the same time killing innocents and infrastructure.

And those who think it will be all peaches and cream once the war is over, I think you are sadly mistaken. This is the Middle East, with religous roots that go back thousands of years. We will not be welcome there, no matter what good we are trying to do.

Meanwhile, the hunderd billion plus that this war and eventualy reconstruction of Iraq will cost I think might do us a bit of good in our own country. Unemployment is astronomical, educational system is in the pits, etc....how about worrying about the needs of our citizens first and trying to fix the huge problems we face?

Everyone has their own opinion, whether they formulate it by flocking with the other sheep who follow blindly (and that goes both ways...not just going along with whatever the government says, but also going along with the anti-war protests because it's the 'in' thing or whatever) or they think things over regardless of party lines or anti-government feelings or pacifism. That just happens to be my opinion. Doesn't mean I think our country is a terrible place or that I'm rooting for Hussein. This is a great country, one I'm proud to live in. That doesn't necessarily agree with everything our country does. If that was the case and everyone just agreed all the time with our government's actions, that would be a very dangerous thing.

I support the troops as this is their job to carry out the actions of our leaders. This is what they train and enlist to do. Now if the military starts questioning, that is a different story...I don't believe that is right for them and would just cause major, major problems. I can't fault them for carrying out orders (unless if it was some extreme, drastic case that would not happen..say getting orders to bomb Cleveland because the Cavs suck). These are American's that are putting their lives on the line..I can only respect, admire, support and hope they all come back safely. That still doesn't mean I can't disagree with what the leaders are telling them to fight for.

Now if after this invasion, we go to Somalia, go take care of the North Korea issue, go to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc., then I won't have a problem with what we are doing now. But it just seems to me we are picking on a country that we know has no chance of defeating us, carries a 'name' that the American public is more than familiar with, and is what seemingly looks like a stepping stone to increase our presence in the Middle East instead of facing a more pressing situation in North Korea, liberating Somalia where that country is in just as terrible of shape as Iraq (but we don't have the history with them nor the familiar "Hussein' name that goes along with them), facing Pakistan who actually has nuclear weapons and a government that isn't exactly stable, or Saudi Arabia who has known ties to terrorists and Al-Queda.

It's great that we all have difference's of opinions...if not, as I said previously, it would be a scary thing. This issue isn't tangible, black and white, one way is right one is defintely wrong. And nobody is going to change their minds over what someone on Madjack's forum writes. I'm not trying to do that. I'm just trying to state my feelings, my opinion, without having to see the typical 'bleeding heart' or 'pacifist' bullshit labels applied to those who don't agree with the war.
 

DR STRANGELOVE

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Skanoochies said:
Hey Cherryblister, how how dare you leave out the no 1 City in the world, VANCOUVER B.C. You should be ashamed! But then again you probably cheer for the Maple Laughs so I kinda understand.:D :D :D :D

Have a good day,


Skanoochies.

Last time I checked the Laughs have dominated the nuckers this year!

:)
 

Penguinfan

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ChrryBlstr said:

1) if this war is indeed about geting rid of hussein and all his WMDs....at what cost....i mean....we're doing this to prevent him from attacking us/others....sparing the lives of our innocents....BUT....what about THEIR civilians....isn't the death of even ONE innocent iraqi civilian because of the war a travesty in itself....or....are our lives worth more than than theirs....and when they do get killed....do we just chalk it up as a casualty of war and say sorry and that's that???


CB, you make some excellent points , all I can offer about that first one is the fact that 2 wrongs never make a right and in this case taking the lesser of two evil's still seems morally wrong, but Iraq and the rest of the world will be a better place after Hussein is gone. There will be a price to pay for that though and we are paying it now.

Penguinfan
 

Skanoochies

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Hey Dr. Strangelove, nice shot. Hopefully they will meet in the Stanley cup! That would call for a little friendly wager. (not too heavy, I`m just an old pensioner). It would really p*ss me off if Quinn knocked us off if we ever made it that far.

Good luck, Skanoochies.:mad: :mad: :mad:
 

broondog

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Chrry Blstr: Some thoughts to ponder.............
1) When did the trouble start with Iraq?.....A) when they invaded Kuwait.
2)How long should a dictator be allowed to defy the"UNITED NATIONS"........Iraq has been under U.N. sanctions since '91...they haven't changed their form of government for 12yrs. afterINVADING another country
3) What's the U.S. role in the world......A) "Super Power" a shining light of Democracy at work
4) As for civilian casualties................I guess you choose to ignore the human shields Saddam's loyal troops use as protection from those bully Americans who drop their guard to accept civilians only to be shot by those life loving republican guard hiding behind women and children
5) THIS SHOULD'VE BEEN NO. 1............As far as us INVADING Iraq............CIVILIAN CASUALTIES........do you remember 2001.....four airliners were hijacked..........everyday civilians onboard..............innocent men,women,and children.............three of those planes flown into buildings where more innocent men, women, and children were?Oh, and did I ask if you could tell me what Americans did to provoke that?? I doubt you'll change your I love the innocent Iraqi's but realize this man has been given numerous chances. Pay attention to the news I think it's obvious our troops, their leaders are doing everything possible to protect innocent lives:nooo: :nutkick
 

ChrryBlstr

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penguinfan:

i agree....two wrongs definitely don't make a right....and like i said before....i really don't think that there's a definitive solution to all of this....i heard that the iranians are now helping the iraqis....now stop and think about this for a sec....these two nations have been killing each other for centuries and now they're siding together?!!!

that in itself should tell us something, i think....


broondog:

first off....i am NOT a saddam supporter....BUT....that being a given....i would just like to gather HONEST information on BOTH sides before judging....and i will attempt to answer your questions to the best of my abilities....

1) When did the trouble start with Iraq?.....A) when they invaded Kuwait.

actually....wasn't it when saddam came into power in the first place....yet....he was supported by both the russkies AND the US at one time or another....go figger....PLUS....the kuwaitis aren't as innocent as they are portrayed....WHY were they invaded in the first place?!!!

BUT....that's another issue altogether....


2)How long should a dictator be allowed to defy the"UNITED NATIONS"........Iraq has been under U.N. sanctions since '91...they haven't changed their form of government for 12yrs. afterINVADING another country

hmmmmmmmmmm....as far as i know....there are buncha other dictators/governments in the world that are committing atrocities against their people that NO ONE is doing anything about....why?!!!

i'm sure that the UN doesn't look to kindly upon these people....

i agree that saddam should be ousted....just not sure if war is the answer....not sure WHAT the answer is, actually....


3) What's the U.S. role in the world......A) "Super Power" a shining light of Democracy at work

i agree....a self-appointed SUPER POWER at that....BUT....should this not be prefaced by....ONLY when there are US interests in jeopardy....or am i mistaken???

why is this hardly ever mentioned, i wonder....


4) As for civilian casualties................I guess you choose to ignore the human shields Saddam's loyal troops use as protection from those bully Americans who drop their guard to accept civilians only to be shot by those life loving republican guard hiding behind women and children

not at all....this whole notion is horrid....BUT....would this even be an issue if there was no war???


5) THIS SHOULD'VE BEEN NO. 1............As far as us INVADING Iraq............CIVILIAN CASUALTIES........do you remember 2001.....four airliners were hijacked..........everyday civilians onboard..............innocent men,women,and children.............three of those planes flown into buildings where more innocent men, women, and children were?Oh, and did I ask if you could tell me what Americans did to provoke that?? I doubt you'll change your I love the innocent Iraqi's but realize this man has been given numerous chances. Pay attention to the news I think it's obvious our troops, their leaders are doing everything possible to protect innocent lives

nopers....NO EXCUSES for 9/11....NONE WHATSOEVER....BUT....do people ever stop and think WHY there is such a hatred for americans around the world....highly doubtful....from my point of view....probably ignorance and arrogance....as well misinformation and propaganda from ALL sides....

and once again....i realize that saddam has to be ousted....BUT....at what cost???

and regardless of what the troops and leaders do to try and minimize civilian deaths....that is all it is....MINIMIZE....innocent people WILL die....ARE DYING because of war....on both sides....simple as that....no matter how much planning....no matter how careful they try to be....THAT, my friend, is the reality of war....hell....how many of the troops have been killed so far due to friendly fire....and that's all i'm against....senseless killing and deaths....is that really such a bad thing???
 
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ChrryBlstr

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one more question....

if the coalition is so justified in the liberation of the iraqi people....WHY in the hell is there so much opposition from millions and millions of arabs....who....for some strange reason....i don't believe to be ALL terrorists...are they simply:

a) pro-hussein

b) pro-dictatorship

c) pro-arab

d) ignorant and uninformed

e) simply racist

f) believe it or not....actually KNOW all or have most of the facts about what is going on in the middle east....you know....kinda informed since they kinda live there....


just wondering....
 

Chanman

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Most people believe only what they want to. Call it rationalizing, apologizing, etc., but remember you could have a taped confession of Saddam's atrocities and some would say the CIA or such fabricated it. Saddam is paying $ to families of Suicide Bombers against American Servicemen and where is the outcry against innocent lives lost? I saw where that Muslim soldier, (who fragged his comrades), had friends and relatives say he was driven to it. :mad: (Should be fun looking over your shoulder all the time while your'e in the exercise yard.) Wish there was another way, but at least the terrorists know there will be repercussions. Maybe Jesse Jackson should try to mediate.:shrug:
P.S.- Remember how fanatical the Japanese were during the end of WW2. There is a cliff overlooking the sea in Saipan that many women and children committed suicide from because they knew the Americans were coming. They, (Japanese), feel a little differently today. Just my view. Time for my Mexican Viagara Now.
 
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Penguinfan

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ChrryBlstr said:
one more question....

if the coalition is so justified in the liberation of the iraqi people....WHY in the hell is there so much opposition from millions and millions of arabs....who....for some strange reason....i don't believe to be ALL terrorists...are they simply:

a) pro-hussein

b) pro-dictatorship

c) pro-arab

d) ignorant and uninformed

e) simply racist

f) believe it or not....actually KNOW all or have most of the facts about what is going on in the middle east....you know....kinda informed since they kinda live there....


just wondering....

I want to respond to point #2 as this is something I have been thinking alot about. I am not ready to change sides here, nor will I stop supporting out guys over there, however what is it that makes us right and them wrong. So they like to have an overbearing leader, that does not necessarily make them wrong, maybe they are comfortable having someone think for them. Granted Hessein is not the right guy, but forcing democracy on them is perhaps not the correct move either. What is democracy other than mob rules? The majority is not always right, but it makes the rules in out society, what is so correct about that? I mean if we had a vote to legalize heroin and the majority THAT VOTED said yes, does that make heroin a good thing? No, but it makes it legal.
I understand that we have the best gov't in the world, but that does ont mean it is right for everybody.

Penguinfan
 

BobbyBlueChip

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Many of the arab nations would like Saddam gone. Their support of Iraq now lies in the fact that they are embarrassed that they can't do it themselves.

It's like having your big sister beat up the school bully. It's great that he's out of the picture, but you're embarrassed that you couldn't do it yourself. I know that trying to categorize a geopolitical situation into a schoolyard metaphor leaves alot to be desired, but they see a country who is able to impose it's free will on another and they know that in the end things will be better, but in their minds Israel is the country who is in violation and we not only don't talk about regime change, we look the other way.

I have yet to hear the reconstruction plans, but pure democracy will be tough. Shiites have hated the Sunnis for 1500 years and vice versa. If the Shiites were to gain power, the first order of business would be to get even for the crimes of the last millenium and a half. And to divide the County into three nations of Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds would cause major resentment over allocation of resources and a nationalism of those countries that would make the middle east more unstable than before.

There will be no easy answers and maybe no right answers.
 
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