I just don't get it

[dawgball]

As most of you know that have participated in conversation, I am strongly Pro-Life. I don't think there is a time when you should end one's life. The one thing I could waiver (sp?) on is when someone is requesting assisted suicide if they are of sane mind. I can't really back up why, but that is the one case where I could probably be persuaded.

Anyway, as I was going to bed last night I flipped through some channels and landed on CNN where they had crews outside the California state prison.

What I don't get is the people that are passionately against a man like Tookie to be saved from being killed after being convicted and appealed and the whole gambit, but also be for killing an innocent unborn child.

Like I said, I'm not for either, but can someone please tell me why a convicted felon has more of a right to life than a completely innocent human.

Also, I don't have time for the rape argument because those are a small percentage of abortions and I don't think it would actually help heal the victim (woman). but this last part is just an opinion.

 

[larryowen]

Because most these anti-death penalties are idiots and hyprocrites especially Jesse Jackson. I wonder if he will be pushing to spare the life of Scott Peterson.

 

[Clem D]

You are only seeing one side.
Pro choice = against death penalty = ironic

What about the other side?

Pro Life = for the death penalty =ironic

neither makes sense.

 

[fletcher]

db read my response in the tookie thread i just wrote can't seem to cut and paste it here so just posted it, might help you out some.

 

[larryowen]

You are only seeing one side.
Pro choice = against death penalty = ironic

What about the other side?

Pro Life = for the death penalty =ironic

neither makes sense.

You can't compare a man that by his own choice killed 4 people to an unborn child that just wants a chance at life.

 

[Clem D]

Im not..


Im just pointing out a stupid irony.

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

They can compare anything or situation in their own minds--
how do you argue with those that think people alleged of crime should be fired and imprisoned and those convicted should serve another term. Its called liberal logic.

 

[larryowen]

Im not..


Im just pointing out a stupid irony.

You are comparing the two, except for a woman being raped which she had no choice in. Here are two people haveing sex and oops a baby, "well I am not ready for a baby," then maybe you should have thought about that and took precautions not to get pregnant." What abortion is, is 2 people not willing to take responsibility for their decisions and takeing it out a an unborn child that gets no say so. Same with the anti-death penalty advocates. People not wanting others to account for their crimes.

 

[steve2881]

Clem D???????

Clem D???????

That is one of the worst comparisons I have ever heard.

Pro Life- Innocent being

Pro Death-penalty- Justice being dealt out

it makes complete sense.

That is why it is so hard for conservatives to understand liberals, it seems like they advocate the rights of the evil do'ers as opposed to the rights of the innocent, and the victims.

Also, Its not called abortion, it is a healthcare issue.

 

[bjfinste]

Dawgball,

I am not one of those people, although it may seem so on the surface as I am staunchly pro-abortion and oppose the dealth penalty in America. I'm not opposed to capital punishment; I just think that the system in America is terrible in that it costs more to put someone to death than life in prison, and where one's ability to pay for a good lawyer is the most important criteria in getting out of a conviction.

However, I think the reason people don't have an problem with being split on those issues is because they (like myself) don't consider life to begin until birth. It's two completely different issues to them. Abortion to many supporters is an issue of choice of what to be able to do with one's own body. It's not an issue of life or death.

 

[dawgball]

Clem D -- I actually believe if someone is going to claim to be "Pro-Life", they should be against both. But if I were to side with one, I can't imagine being for killing a baby but protecting a convicted felons life. But I do agree that being Pro-Life and being for the death penalty is ironic.

bj--not that we are going to solve all the world's problems in this thread, but if it were 39 weeks into a pregnancy, would you not consider that life?

I agree that someone should be able to do anything with their own body. But they are not doing anything to their body, they're only killing another person. If a woman wants that baby dead bad enough, I guess she could commit suicide (actually to her own body), thus minimizing the chance of survival for the baby. --NOTE: this is simply a satirical way of looking at this.

On another note, I think "pro-abortion" roughly is translated as being for forced abortions such as is the case in Communist China.

 

[Clem D]

Let me try to simplify this a little.

If you are pro choice and have no problem terminating a pregnancy, why would it bother you to terminate a murderer?

Do you see the irony?

Now on the other side
If you want to protect life at the earliest stage and at all costs,
why doesn't it bother you to take a life?

Can you see that irony?

Thats all im saying. That is why I can't fit into either group as I sometimes feel the death penalty is great. I respect a womans right to choose provided it is not her choice of birth control. That said if it were my decision no way any woman Im with or daughter ever makes that trip to the clinic.

 

[bjfinste]

I have very extreme beliefs on abortion. I really don't know why that is. It wasn't because of parental influence or anything like that. It's just the way I feel. That is why I referred to myself as pro-abortion rather than pro-choie. It's also why I generally avoid discussions like this like the plague.

I believe that most abortion-rights supporters fall in the pro-choice camp. They don't like abortion, but think the option should be kept legal.

I know what you mean when you say, "But they are not doing anything to their body, they're only killing another person." On this issue, although I feel strongly one way, I can at least understand where the other side comes from. I was just bringing that up because that is the thought process that many people have that allows them to have the apparent paradox in morality of being pro-choice and anti-dealth penalty.

Although short of being a family member or a close friend, I don't understand why in the hell people would sit outside protesting 'ol Tookie's execution.

 

[dawgball]

bj -- the PETA and NAMBLA quarterly meetings must have just let out. :scared

 

[ImFeklhr]

A way to demonstrate the irony Clem was trying to point out is.... only God (if you belive in such a thing) should have the power to end a life.

It can be said that the act of Abortion OR Execution is when a human uses power only God should wield.
All that Jesus turning the other cheek and loving neighbors and all that crap. It definitly seems to fly in the face of execution.

Justice is a tricky thing, and I would definitly be on the side that says the death penalty in the US is a f'ed up thing, and not worth all the trouble.

 

[CHARLESMANSON]

only God should have the power to end a life
.

Tell that to Tookie Williams, who ended four.

Ever notice how all the liberals who are against the death of muderers are pro-abortion?

 

[ImFeklhr]

We DID tell that to him, when he was sentenced to prison. Now don't get me wrong, he was scum, and I'm not sad to see him go.

I don't buy into this "he was innocent, or he was reformed" as a reason to rally behind him. But I can definitly understand being against the death penalty across the board.

"We" once hanged men for stealing a horse etc. Times change, and interpretations of crime change. Sometimes it is best to err on the side of caution and life.

Besides, I don't see how effective or just it is to have someone sit on death row for 20 years, then decide it's time to dole out the appropriate punishment.

I don't know :mj03:

 

[CHARLESMANSON]

I agree and I respect others who are against the death penalty. Very well put. I do have a problem with the wacko liberals and actors who say he is innocent. Thanks for looking at both sides IMFEK. Who would have thought of every liberal on the board I get along best with and agree the most with the one from San Francisco??

oooops... sorry to give you a bad name!!!

 

[gardenweasel]

i think there are very honest arguments on both sides of the abortion and death penalty issue....

i`m one of the strange ones that "feels"(that word gets me in trouble right off the bat)that the death penalty...particularly in williams` case....is very appropriate....and is only applicable on a case by case basis...

willams`,by all accounts,was a monster until his ass was on the line...and by all accounts,was an s.o.b. up to the very end while he was in jail...despite what you read in the papers...

i`m glad he`s gone..

abortion?....another toughie...should be some restrictions...rape obviously being an issue....

i believe in parental notification...

but,i`m a little uncomfortable with predominantly male lawmakers making this decision for women...

i also think it`s patently unfair for "the father" to have "no" say in the abortion ....particularly when he`s forcedto support the child for 18 years by law,based solely on the woman`s decision...

what really had me scratching my head was several cases in which the man had been paying child support but was cleared of being the father once the dna test was confirmed...

yet,the courts still made him continue supporting the child...compounding the initial mistake...

that`s nuts...

women want equal pay...and equal rights..but not regarding reproductive issues...it`s all one sided....

ridiculous, actually.

whatever...i`m all over the map on abortion...

a toughie...common sense is not a consideration..

 

[Nick Douglas]

The problem I have with the death penalty is giving the state the right to kill. That's just too much power to give the authorities, especially considering the mentality of many cops and prosecutors. I will admit I found it offensive that a lot of fellow liberals chose Tookie freakin' Williams as the guy to take a stand on when it comes to the death penalty.

Abortion is a wholly unrelated issue. There are plenty of reasons why doctor-assisted abortions should be kept legal and private, foremost among them safety, gender equity and maintaining the family structure. Very few people would argue that aborting a pregnancy is a moral act, but then again very few reasonable people would argue that using birth control, drinking alcohol and gambling (including poker) are moral acts. How many of us can say we've abstained from those acts of evil? Certainly nobody on this board.