If Schilling or Johnson can't finish the game
- Thread starter Sick Dog
- Start date
Yep. Amazed he even left Kim in there for the 10th. Still, DBacks still have Johnson and Schilling one more time. I think next time Schilling will kick Brenly's ass if he takes him out.
That son of a bitch...I knew it...Anytime I bet on or against Yanks..I lose...screw baseball..IAm sticking with NCAA football...loss my ass tonight...lost so big...
OD
OD
let me explain to everyone on here,that it had nothing to do with schilling being able to finish,have been in this game for over 16 years as aplayer and coach at the college and pro leve,that was a piss poor choice by a poor manager,he had 88 pitches last pitch was 96 far from tired,but manager thought up 2 with 2 to go he could hold yanks off and save a few throws from schilling if it had to go 7. well point 1 you don't save anyone you play for the win that day and worry about next game when it is over #2 saving 20 pitches or so means nothing after 60-70 as a pitcher the damage to vessels&muscle are done, and let him throw as much as it took because if he were to throw a game 7 he would have the 3 full days of rest.
schilling earned the right to stay in,you don't pull him till he gets himself in trouble,this game was blowen by brenley,and kim has always and will always suck under pressure,he does ok when nothing is at stake but in a close game he screws up more then not,the guy never has the same release point or balance point on his follow through ever,thats why some balls go high outside and flat.he is not a pressure pitcher. thank you manager on this lose,schilling was pissed heard he took out a water cooler and put a bat through a locker roomwall.
[This message has been edited by fletcher (edited 11-01-2001).]
schilling earned the right to stay in,you don't pull him till he gets himself in trouble,this game was blowen by brenley,and kim has always and will always suck under pressure,he does ok when nothing is at stake but in a close game he screws up more then not,the guy never has the same release point or balance point on his follow through ever,thats why some balls go high outside and flat.he is not a pressure pitcher. thank you manager on this lose,schilling was pissed heard he took out a water cooler and put a bat through a locker roomwall.
[This message has been edited by fletcher (edited 11-01-2001).]
fletcher,
Maybe you are right and Brenly should be sitting with me outside the dugout watching as a spectator. But Kim certainly looked good in the 8th inning. I do understand what you are saying, but to me it was Kim's fault and not Brenly's. I have followed Brenly the entire year and his decisions are always (with a couple exceptions like this) right on the money. At least that is my experience with him. . . clearly he should have taken Kim out when the game was tied up. . . I certainly would agree with that point.
Maybe you are right and Brenly should be sitting with me outside the dugout watching as a spectator. But Kim certainly looked good in the 8th inning. I do understand what you are saying, but to me it was Kim's fault and not Brenly's. I have followed Brenly the entire year and his decisions are always (with a couple exceptions like this) right on the money. At least that is my experience with him. . . clearly he should have taken Kim out when the game was tied up. . . I certainly would agree with that point.
Fletch, Thanks for that info. I Didn't know the same damage was done with 80 pitches or 110 pitches, for resting the arm three days. That totally changes my mind, if they should take out or leave in a pitcher, if you may need him on three days rest.
bear did you watch the game,he was all over the place he got 3 strike outs due to poor plate discipline,he threw a few good pitches but the others were all high and out of the zone,spencer swung at 3 balls and so did brosious, he wasnot even close to a good job from a pitching stand point, he got the job done but was out of control with it,and it showed in the other innings. and got just what you would expect from a preformence like that he was every where walks balls high stikes wide strikes and chest high flat 84 mph fastballs.
kim has hardley ever throwen good under pressure,his teammates have even talked about him and lack of a backbone he gives up a walk or hit and he sags his shoulders looks down at ground a mopes like a whipt puppy and has no sack and it happened again soons he put a guy on he started to mope.
[This message has been edited by fletcher (edited 11-01-2001).]
kim has hardley ever throwen good under pressure,his teammates have even talked about him and lack of a backbone he gives up a walk or hit and he sags his shoulders looks down at ground a mopes like a whipt puppy and has no sack and it happened again soons he put a guy on he started to mope.
[This message has been edited by fletcher (edited 11-01-2001).]
Funny fletcher,
Of course I watched the game! I know you meant that as a sarcastic remark but others might not so I wanted to clarify. . .
Also, I am sure you are aware that Kim ALWAYS pitches without control (for the most part). But I have watched him the entire year and ever since he has been with the DBacks. . . he always pitches like that and usually gets hitters to swing at them. Believe it or not, Kim was at his best in the 8th inning. . . I want to make sure it is understood that he was pitching at HIS best. . . certainly not the best of other closers, but for him it was a great inning.
I have seen him much worse when his pitches aren't even caught by the catcher! He is wild and certainly a gamble as I have indicated before. . . to be honest, I do not know of submarine pitchers that have a lot of control. . . guess I should learn to watch other teams for a comparison to Kim!
[This message has been edited by BearDownAZ (edited 11-01-2001).]
Of course I watched the game! I know you meant that as a sarcastic remark but others might not so I wanted to clarify. . .
Also, I am sure you are aware that Kim ALWAYS pitches without control (for the most part). But I have watched him the entire year and ever since he has been with the DBacks. . . he always pitches like that and usually gets hitters to swing at them. Believe it or not, Kim was at his best in the 8th inning. . . I want to make sure it is understood that he was pitching at HIS best. . . certainly not the best of other closers, but for him it was a great inning.
I have seen him much worse when his pitches aren't even caught by the catcher! He is wild and certainly a gamble as I have indicated before. . . to be honest, I do not know of submarine pitchers that have a lot of control. . . guess I should learn to watch other teams for a comparison to Kim!
[This message has been edited by BearDownAZ (edited 11-01-2001).]
he screws up when his elbow drops below his waist and the ball floats,his balance point is always off which makes him throw wild,there is no reason he should let as many balls fly as he does and its been like that for 2 years,he is un coachable very good friends with brain butterfield who coached kim for a few years with the dbacks,we played together and coached in single a in ft.lauderdale together,he told me what i am telling you he won't work on his balance and release point because he feels he loses speed,well hell he has a below avg fb what's to lose,buck hated him the last year and wanted him gone and some players still feel that way about him.
fletch,
Interesting. . . can you comment on submarine style pitchers? Just seems to me that they are always off balance. . . am I wrong to make this assumption? I know I've seen other submarine pitchers besides Kim and they may have better control than Kim, but not compared to other pitchers!
As for his acceptance on the team. . . you are right on track from what I have seen. . . pretty sure that most on the team would not miss him if he left. Must have felt all alone tonight. . . I'm pretty sure we won't see him for the rest of the season.
Interesting. . . can you comment on submarine style pitchers? Just seems to me that they are always off balance. . . am I wrong to make this assumption? I know I've seen other submarine pitchers besides Kim and they may have better control than Kim, but not compared to other pitchers!
As for his acceptance on the team. . . you are right on track from what I have seen. . . pretty sure that most on the team would not miss him if he left. Must have felt all alone tonight. . . I'm pretty sure we won't see him for the rest of the season.
sub pitchers look off balance because they come across their midline.but there swing leg which is back leg should come around and look like they are lifting it over a folding chair and touch down on ball of foot,hell kims swing leg flys up sometimes out and aroud to where it spins him off balance to the left and thats where you see the ball go to the backstop i saw 3 times tonight where he threw 1 legged to where his swing leg did not touch the ground at all he is a mess,if you don't have balance over the front of you then your swing will be everywhere and you will be hard pressed to be consistent,also will be a poor fielder and he fits into all of those,also he needs to wipe that horseshit grin off his face when he gets racked,as a catcher i would knock that shit off his face in the club house after a game,if you going to show an expression it better be mad or pissed not a smile.
Bear, I thought you were flyin the coop? Anyways.....Brenly should NOT have pulled Schilling. He made the decision to start him (which was a good one), he should have let him finish. I'm so tired of hearing about pitch counts, especially when they are applied universally. You'd think that every pitcher's arm just magically falls off after 100 pitches? The fact of the matter is: everybody is different. Some pitchers are burnt toast after 80 pitches, some can throw 140 every 5 days for 20+ years (see Nolan Ryan). Schilling is a horse and has thrown 100+ pitches 29 out of starts this year. And more importantly...this is the friggin WORLD SERIES! You've got a chance to go up 3-1 on the Yanks with your horse on the hill, you leave him in to finish the project. Period. As Fletcher said, that was a BAD decision by a BAD manager and could go down as one of the worst decisions in WS history.
Next, I've seen Kim pitch plenty of times and he was AWFUL tonight. He was up, out over the plate, wide left, wide right, you name it. He was terrible in the 8th as well, even though he fanned the side, he could just as easily have walked 3. The Yanks saw this and made the adjustment. They started to take pitches and made him come in with a big flat fastball, and they hammered him. Game over. Drive home safely.
Next, I've seen Kim pitch plenty of times and he was AWFUL tonight. He was up, out over the plate, wide left, wide right, you name it. He was terrible in the 8th as well, even though he fanned the side, he could just as easily have walked 3. The Yanks saw this and made the adjustment. They started to take pitches and made him come in with a big flat fastball, and they hammered him. Game over. Drive home safely.
Junior,
Yanks certainly made their adjustments a little late (I mean if I figured Kim out I wouldn't want to wait till there are 2 outs and 2 strikes before figuring it out) wouldn't you say??? LOL. . . but then you could say they found things out at the right time!
As for me leaving, I'm having second thoughts (obviously). . . I made my decision without reflection. I still believe I was right. . . I feel my thread was harmless. . . and I feel that EMJ and others were wrong. No reason to leave! I will simply learn to ignore them and have fun with this board. . . I cannot help it if others take it more seriously than I do. . . that is their choice. . . but I have a right to make my choice as well which is why I started the "In game discussion" thread for game 5. People say I jinxed the game? Well, they would be saying that regardless. . . even if the game was a blowout!
I will not blow up like I did in that thread last weekend but will poke fun at Rat and EMJ and others as I did once they started their "jinx" crap. . .MadJack has the final say and if I stay within his rules, then all is well. . .
Yanks certainly made their adjustments a little late (I mean if I figured Kim out I wouldn't want to wait till there are 2 outs and 2 strikes before figuring it out) wouldn't you say??? LOL. . . but then you could say they found things out at the right time!
As for me leaving, I'm having second thoughts (obviously). . . I made my decision without reflection. I still believe I was right. . . I feel my thread was harmless. . . and I feel that EMJ and others were wrong. No reason to leave! I will simply learn to ignore them and have fun with this board. . . I cannot help it if others take it more seriously than I do. . . that is their choice. . . but I have a right to make my choice as well which is why I started the "In game discussion" thread for game 5. People say I jinxed the game? Well, they would be saying that regardless. . . even if the game was a blowout!
I will not blow up like I did in that thread last weekend but will poke fun at Rat and EMJ and others as I did once they started their "jinx" crap. . .MadJack has the final say and if I stay within his rules, then all is well. . .
Fellas-------everyone is overanaylizing the game------It's easy to say that Brenly is an idiot--and he made the wrong call-----------------The Bottom Line is that Brenly Wanted " his cake and he wanted to eat it too"==what i mean is that Brenly wanted the win------he wanted to save Schilling a bit----why?? maybe he got caught up in the hype about Schilling's pitch count i game 1 and 2-
The bottom line is that Brenly asked Schilling how he felt and Schill said he could go one more!!! It's not like Schilling is a young pitcher---He is a veteran--and he knows how he feels!!!! I mean he has done it all year--Why not give him at least one batter to see what happens!!!---BUt in Brenly's defense---the Diamondbacks had 2 outs in the 9th and everyone thought Arizona had that game wrapped up!! I do not Question the pitching move as much as I question the pitch that was thrown to Tino--First pitch Fastball--with 2 outs and one on?????? Who called that pitch!!!! Pitchers always know if they are going to get beat by a hitter make the hitter beat your best pitch(I believe Kim slider) Bottom line----Brenly should had let Schill toe the rubber in the 8th but Arizona shaky bullpen let this one slip away!!!These teams are even almost everywhere but The one thing everyone in this forum knows is that Yankee bullpen has the Superior bullpen--and i know i thought this would ultimately be the difference--and i believe the difference in bullpens will continue to haunt Arizona!!! IF the game is tied in 5-6-or 7--- I will play the percentages and stay with Rivera and the yanks!!! What is the stat when the "champs" lead after 6----37-1 in playoffs since 1996----that is truely amazing!!! NOte to all--if you like the Yankees to win---than you have to love the under--with that stat... I caught a break--backing the Yanks and under tonight but-----they are the "CHAMPS"---
Final thought----IF Brenly had a nasty bullpen like Torre's----Game 4 would have gave the Diamondback's a comfortable 3-1 lead!!! SO be pissed at Brenly, but do not blame him for the loss---it is difficult to blame one individual for losing in a team game!!! If anyone wants to blame someone--blame That average bullpen!!!
The bottom line is that Brenly asked Schilling how he felt and Schill said he could go one more!!! It's not like Schilling is a young pitcher---He is a veteran--and he knows how he feels!!!! I mean he has done it all year--Why not give him at least one batter to see what happens!!!---BUt in Brenly's defense---the Diamondbacks had 2 outs in the 9th and everyone thought Arizona had that game wrapped up!! I do not Question the pitching move as much as I question the pitch that was thrown to Tino--First pitch Fastball--with 2 outs and one on?????? Who called that pitch!!!! Pitchers always know if they are going to get beat by a hitter make the hitter beat your best pitch(I believe Kim slider) Bottom line----Brenly should had let Schill toe the rubber in the 8th but Arizona shaky bullpen let this one slip away!!!These teams are even almost everywhere but The one thing everyone in this forum knows is that Yankee bullpen has the Superior bullpen--and i know i thought this would ultimately be the difference--and i believe the difference in bullpens will continue to haunt Arizona!!! IF the game is tied in 5-6-or 7--- I will play the percentages and stay with Rivera and the yanks!!! What is the stat when the "champs" lead after 6----37-1 in playoffs since 1996----that is truely amazing!!! NOte to all--if you like the Yankees to win---than you have to love the under--with that stat... I caught a break--backing the Yanks and under tonight but-----they are the "CHAMPS"---
Final thought----IF Brenly had a nasty bullpen like Torre's----Game 4 would have gave the Diamondback's a comfortable 3-1 lead!!! SO be pissed at Brenly, but do not blame him for the loss---it is difficult to blame one individual for losing in a team game!!! If anyone wants to blame someone--blame That average bullpen!!!
Be pissed at Brenly but do not blame him for the loss???
I think that each goes hand in hand. . . personally, I think you are trying to say that Kim should be blamed more than Brenly and I fully agree. Sure it was Brenly's decision. . . but Brenly cannot go out there and throw the ball for Kim! Kim made two mistakes tonight with his pitches. . . unfortunately for the DBacks, those two pitches led to 3 runs. . .
I think that each goes hand in hand. . . personally, I think you are trying to say that Kim should be blamed more than Brenly and I fully agree. Sure it was Brenly's decision. . . but Brenly cannot go out there and throw the ball for Kim! Kim made two mistakes tonight with his pitches. . . unfortunately for the DBacks, those two pitches led to 3 runs. . .
I'm not saying be pissed at Brenly--He is a manager and a manager's job is too feel out his team--and make smart though--out decsions---He felt Kim was capable but--yes Kim did make a mistake--that's not what concerns me--Everyone will make a physical mistake from time to time--a pitcher will make a mistake pitch--but my question is the pitch call---i believe it was a mental mistake throwing a first pitch fastball----Why?? Cause it is not Kim's best pitch and with 2 outs they had to know that Tino was looking for only fastballs--I believe that is all he would have swung at first pitch---trying to tie it up with one swing!!Brenly made a bold decision--but hey Brenly was one out away from being a genius--- unfortunaltely for Arizona---tino got a pitch he could handle!!!
Love the passion voiced in this thread!!!
Bear, you can feel his pain in what was a heart wrenching loss.mad:
Fletch, you can feel the x player(coach) coming out.
Inn, He bleeds pinstrips period.
FWIW, It should haven't come down to the last inning or so, Dbacks have the chance in the first couple of innings to BLOW OUT the yanks, but couldn't get the hit(or sac fly).
Brenly made a boneheaded move taking schilling out and then to keep Kim in to face Tino, apparently his unconventional moves finally caught up w/him.
Dbacks really miss mantai(SP)!!!!!
This is going 7 baby!!!
Bear, you can feel his pain in what was a heart wrenching loss.mad:
Fletch, you can feel the x player(coach) coming out.
Inn, He bleeds pinstrips period.
FWIW, It should haven't come down to the last inning or so, Dbacks have the chance in the first couple of innings to BLOW OUT the yanks, but couldn't get the hit(or sac fly).
Brenly made a boneheaded move taking schilling out and then to keep Kim in to face Tino, apparently his unconventional moves finally caught up w/him.
Dbacks really miss mantai(SP)!!!!!
This is going 7 baby!!!
