In 2002, Justice Department said eavesdropping law working well

Chadman

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In 2002, Justice Department said eavesdropping law working well

By Jonathan S. Landay
Knight Ridder Newspapers

WASHINGTON - A July 2002 Justice Department statement to a Senate committee appears to contradict several key arguments that the Bush administration is making to defend its eavesdropping on U.S. citizens without court warrants.

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, the law governing such operations, was working well, the department said in 2002. A "significant review" would be needed to determine whether FISA's legal requirements for obtaining warrants should be loosened because they hampered counterterrorism efforts, the department said then.

President Bush, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and other top officials now argue that warrantless eavesdropping is necessary in part because complying with the FISA law is too burdensome and impedes the government's ability to rapidly track communications between suspected terrorists.

In its 2002 statement, the Justice Department said it opposed a legislative proposal to change FISA to make it easier to obtain warrants that would allow the super-secret National Security Agency to listen in on communications involving non-U.S. citizens inside the United States.

Today, senior U.S. officials complain that FISA prevents them from doing that.

James A. Baker, the Justice Department's top lawyer on intelligence policy, made the statement before the Senate Intelligence Committee on July 31, 2002. He was laying out the department's position on an amendment to FISA proposed by Sen. Mike DeWine, R-Ohio. The committee rejected DeWine's proposal, leaving FISA intact.

So while Congress chose not to weaken FISA in 2002, today Bush and his allies contend that Congress implicitly gave Bush the authority to evade FISA's requirements when it authorized him to use force in response to the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks three days after they occurred - a contention that many lawmakers reject.

Glenn Greenwald, an Internet blogger, first connected the earlier Justice Department statement to the Bush administration's current arguments on his Web log, called Unclaimed Territory.

Baker's 2002 statement drew new attention Wednesday as the White House continued its campaign to justify eavesdropping on Americans who are suspected of being in contact with al-Qaida or other terrorist groups, despite possible violation of FISA.

Bush visited the NSA's sprawling complex at Fort Meade, Md., on Wednesday to deliver a closed-door morale-boosting talk to its workforce.

He later repeated to reporters that the eavesdropping operation was limited to communications in which one participant was outside the United States.

"When terrorist operatives are here in America communicating with someone overseas, we must understand what's going on if we're going to do our job to protect the people," Bush said.

The administration insists that Bush has the legal and constitutional authority to order the NSA program, which began after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. But Democrats and some Republicans contend that Bush may have violated FISA, which governs how the government can monitor international calls and e-mails.

The law requires the government to show a secret federal court that it has "probable cause" to believe that a target for domestic eavesdropping is an agent of a foreign government or involved with a terrorist organization like al-Qaida.

DeWine's bill would have lowered the "probable cause" standard to one of only "reasonable suspicion" for warrants involving foreigners in the country.

Baker said in 2002 that because the "proposed change raises both significant legal and practical issues, the administration at this time is not prepared to support it."

He said that Justice Department lawyers were trying to determine whether the lower standard would pass "constitutional muster."

Baker also said that the Justice Department had "been aggressive in seeking FISA warrants" and that congressional approval of the USA Patriot Act had allowed investigators "to use our expanded FISA tools more effectively to combat terrorist activities."

"It may not be the case that the probable cause standard has caused any difficulties in our ability to seek the FISA warrants we require," he said then.

Brian Roehrkasse, a Justice Department spokesman, said Wednesday that Gonzales stands by the administration's current view that FISA warrant requirements impose "additional layers of review" that sacrifice "critical speed and agility."

Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, sent Gonzales a letter detailing a series of pointed questions that he intends to ask during a Feb. 6 hearing into the NSA program's legality.

The letter noted that under FISA, federal authorities can wiretap anyone and then seek a warrant within 72 hours.

Specter said he wanted Gonzales to explain why Bush didn't ask Congress to change FISA to make it easier to conduct surveillance with judicial approval.

He also indicated that Congress could have adjusted the law when it passed the anti-terrorism Patriot Act in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks.

To read Greenwald's posts on the 2002 Justice Department statement, go to http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/

Knight Ridder Newspapers correspondents William Douglas and James Kuhnhenn contributed to this report.
 

kosar

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Who cares what the Justice Dept says. The judicial and legislative branches are not recognized by this admin. They do what they want.
 

dawgball

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In its 2002 statement, the Justice Department said it opposed a legislative proposal to change FISA to make it easier to obtain warrants that would allow the super-secret National Security Agency to listen in on communications involving non-U.S. citizens inside the United States.

I don't know if this is relevant or just a spin on words, but from what was said today there are no taps on conversation "inside the US". The taps are only used on conversations that go across our borders between known terrorist threats.

Like I said, I don't know if this is also what the Justice Dept. is against, but I am certainly not against it.

I really don't see how someone could be against it.

NOTE: This is all predicated by it being used only in the fashion that is stated.
 

Chadman

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Yeah, of course that is the new spin coming from the administration. I would ask - again - if these taps are used on conversations between known terrorist threats, then why can they not get a FISA warrant - even after the fact? Can anyone just answer that simple question, using their own justification for doing these things?
 

dawgball

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My post was more of a question as to whether or not the Justice Department opposed what the President was talking about yesterday or if they oppose tapping conversations that happen between two people "inside the US".
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Dawg I think the prob is lots of people are lead to believe they are tapping inter U.S. calls --especially if they are getting their info from liberal sources--

"Listening Limits

The White House insists that its program to eavesdrop without warrants on overseas terrorists calling the U.S. does not permit listening to calls between people inside the United States. The Los Angeles Times didn't mention that distinction in its latest poll, asking people what they thought the president's authorization of "electronic surveillance to monitor phone calls and e-mails within the U.S." Even though that is more intrusive than what the administration says it is doing, 49 percent still said they found the program acceptable. What's more, 51 percent said they would give up some civil liberties in exchange for safety from terrorism compared to 40 percent who said it was more important to protect civil liberties.'
 

Chadman

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Again, Wayne, or anyone, why can't they get a warrant up to 72 hours after their unwarranted surveillance? No delays, no non-protection of Americans, no interruption of surveillance. Do what needs to be done and file a simple bit of paperwork to get the warrant after the fact. Why can't they abide by this law?
 

steve2881

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Chad....

Chad....

Chadman said:
Again, Wayne, or anyone, why can't they get a warrant up to 72 hours after their unwarranted surveillance? No delays, no non-protection of Americans, no interruption of surveillance. Do what needs to be done and file a simple bit of paperwork to get the warrant after the fact. Why can't they abide by this law?

I think the way to best answer your question is this. The law is very vague when it comes to executive powers in a time of war. Both sides of the isle concede that. The pres. as well as his advisor's felt that his powers were extended during this time, and he did not need to obtain a warrant to listen in on calls BETWEEN CITIZENS AND PEOPLE OVERSEAS.

We don't know the facts yet, QUIT JUMPING THE GUN.
 

Chadman

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Steve, I am not jumping the gun. I am asking a basic question that possibly can be answered. I just don't know how, and I have not seen a common sense answer or justification, just excuses that do not supercede the basic question - and law. You are suggesting, as I say other conservatives are too, that this President can continue to call this a war and can essentially do whatever he wants without following the rule of law. The Supreme Court ruled against this, congress has been against it, and no other president has done it. So, again, why can't he simply obtain a warrant in 3 days? Other than the fact that he simply feels that he does not have to follow the law? This administration has changed their terminology on several occasions to describe what they have been doing. But they simply do not have an answer that will keep them following the rule of law. Or any subsequent administration, either.

Still waiting for your followup to my other questions and points, when you get time, too.

Wayne, you make some excellent, well thought out responses, and I respect your thoughts. I just don't think there is an acceptable answer to this one.
 

steve2881

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Chad, I have finally found out where our thoughts divrge.....

"call this a war"

That is where we differ, I don't "call" it a war, I truly think we are at war. This is just the point. You are operating under the assumption that we are not at war, thus the need to go to fisa for a warrant. The president thinks we are at war, thus his expansion of executive power. The power of the president expands in times of war, obviously. This is where we disagree

And again, we are all making large assumption as to what he his or is not doing. lets allow the events to unfold and the facts of this inquiry to be disclosed in due time.
 

Chadman

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I think our thoughts diverge in many places, Steve. But the point is, whether we are at war or not - I can allow for the fact that either we are or the president thinks that we are for whatever reason-there is no need for the expansion of presidential power to accomplish exactly what he has said he is doing...which includes the two or three different reported behaviors that have been expressed depending on the situation they have tried to explain.

Again, I ask, while at war, why can't he/they get a FISA warrant for known or assumed terrorist links before or up to three days after the surveillance? The administration is now asking us to believe that in all of these cases these people are known to have these links and they are known to us. So, what's the problem with following the law?
 

steve2881

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Chad.....

Chad.....

Chadman said:
I think our thoughts diverge in many places, Steve. But the point is, whether we are at war or not - I can allow for the fact that either we are or the president thinks that we are for whatever reason-there is no need for the expansion of presidential power to accomplish exactly what he has said he is doing...which includes the two or three different reported behaviors that have been expressed depending on the situation they have tried to explain.

Again, I ask, while at war, why can't he/they get a FISA warrant for known or assumed terrorist links before or up to three days after the surveillance? The administration is now asking us to believe that in all of these cases these people are known to have these links and they are known to us. So, what's the problem with following the law?

THIS IS PRESICELY THE POINT. He is following the law if he is tapping without a warrant during a time of war....that is your answer. He does NOT need to go to fisa during this time..that is the answer. This is what I was talking about when I said vagueness of the law!!! There are certain things that happen during a presidential election. We the people are endowing him with certain powers i.e. executve powers, powers to choose judicial nominations, etc.
 

kosar

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steve2881 said:
THIS IS PRESICELY THE POINT. He is following the law if he is tapping without a warrant during a time of war....that is your answer. He does NOT need to go to fisa during this time..that is the answer. This is what I was talking about when I said vagueness of the law!!! There are certain things that happen during a presidential election. We the people are endowing him with certain powers i.e. executve powers, powers to choose judicial nominations, etc.

I guess I missed your answer the first 3 times I asked, but if we are at war, and the Pres has these extra powers, when can the 'war' be declared over?

Or do we just say that we will always be at war and allow every future president to have the same leeway?
 

steve2881

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kosar said:
I guess I missed your answer the first 3 times I asked, but if we are at war, and the Pres has these extra powers, when can the 'war' be declared over?

Or do we just say that we will always be at war and allow every future president to have the same leeway?

YES.. in my opinion the office of the president, and his responsibilities have changed in my opinion. They changed on 9/11. I am not sure if this war will ever be over, thus we may need to change the laws concerning executive powers.
 

kosar

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steve2881 said:
YES.. in my opinion the office of the president, and his responsibilities have changed in my opinion. They changed on 9/11. I am not sure if this war will ever be over, thus we may need to change the laws concerning executive powers.

I can buy that. That's what I (and Chad, as far as I can tell) have been trying to say and is somewhat the genesis of me babbling lately about whether this is 'wartime' or not. If we are going to call this permanent condition a 'war', and use it for justification for breaking the law, then they need to change the laws to account for the times.
 

steve2881

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kosar said:
I can buy that. That's what I (and Chad, as far as I can tell) have been trying to say and is somewhat the genesis of me babbling lately about whether this is 'wartime' or not. If we are going to call this permanent condition a 'war', and use it for justification for breaking the law, then they need to change the laws to account for the times.

Exactly...Change the law, hence he has not been breaking the law, but who knows, again we don't know facts yet.
 

dawgball

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Just to clarify, I was not trying to skirt or change the question for diversion. I don't have an answer to this thread's original question or kosar's previous question about whether we are officially at war. I do think times have changed, and I am fully comfortable with what has been reported to date as to what has happened with phone taps.

Is anyone here clear enough on the issue to answer my question. This doesn't really interest me enough to research it.
 

Chadman

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But that again, is my point. Bush and the administration have tried to change this law. They have approached members of congress about it. They, and others, have approached the Justice Department about it. They have been rebuffed and told it is not a good policy and should bot be undertaken. If I need to go find and list again these attempts, I will, but they have been highlighted here before.

This is exactly the point, again, why I don't think this particular administration can or should get carte blanche when it comes to their activities. I certainly agree that if they don't like the law, then take steps to change it. Which they tried, and they failed at.

I do not agree with Steve, that in times of war - a war that this administration have been pushing for for at best arguable reasons for many years - even before 9-11 - that they should be allowed to do whatever they want.

The facts remain, we do not know what they are doing and there is no real way to monitor it, and our country was built on safeguards to prevent abuse for WHATEVER reason. Whether a person or group is actually DOING anything wrong is not even the issue. And the fact still remains, that the current protections we have, and the FISA process allows our administration to protect us in a very generous manner, one that I still cannot see reason why it's not enough. And, again, nobody has shown me any reason why it's not enough. I'm willing to listen, and still am.

This is not prohibitive, repressive, or unsafe. It just isn't.
 

dawgball

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How does FISA work? If they establish a tap, then apply for the FISA warrant, then it is rejected; what happens?
 
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