Kyoto Treaty

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I asked the question to am American friend of mine if the US should sign the Kyoto treaty.....

His response...........

Implementation of the Kyoto Global Warming Treaty, which requires all industrial nations to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to below 1990 levels, is a critical first step in stopping global warming. The Kyoto Treaty is one of first needed steps to saving the planet from total devastation. Should the United States ratify the Kyoto treaty? Does the question even need to be asked? The United States is one of the number one pollutants of the environment. If we don?t sign the treaty then what good would it do the rest of the world. We need to step up and take responsibility for our actions and reduce our output of pollutants to the 1990 standards. This should only be the beginning of steps, we should continue to reduce our emissions by at least 5% each year. Research should be started to find ways to reduce pollution and save our planet. The United States is a leader in this world and if we signed the treaty then others would follow suit. We have seen is happen before. We have started many things and others have followed. We have invented cars, electricity, industry, cotton gins, Internet, computers. Now look at the rest of the world they have these same things because we thought of them first. If we were to sign the treaty countries would be lined up to sign it too. We need to think of future generations and not only of our selves. What about our grandchildren?s grandchildren, don?t we want then to have a world to live in? We must do something to stop this destruction. If we don?t then our children will be hurt and so will we. Skin cancer has risen tremendously in the last 20 years and it is because of the pollution in the air that is destroying the O-zone layer. We are killing our selves and for what benefit? Is it so we can have faster cars, larger factories, bigger computers, or is it for bigger homes and offices? How much worse would life be if we reduced pollution to the levels in 1990? We lived it once; we should be able to do it again. Staggering Findings. The treaty would require U.S. emissions of seven percent below 1990 levels by 2012. WEFA projects that, under current trends, U.S. carbon emissions will exceed that goal by 37 percent. To meet the Kyoto mandate, WEFA projects compliance costs would hit home by: * Raising the cost of every gallon of gas by 64 cents; * Doubling the price of industrial gas and electricity; * Reducing household income by $2,728; * Throwing 2.5 million people out of work Raising the cost of gas is going to happen regardless of the treaty ratification. The price of doubling the cost of industrial gas and electricity is a small price to pay for clean air, water, and life. Household income would drop by $2,728, most people wouldn?t even notice the drop. 2.5 million people would be out of work. They could find new jobs reducing pollution, like building electric cars, or research for cleaner industries. The job opportunities would be endless. We need this treaty to survive, live and prosper in the future. There are no excuses for not signing this treaty.


I agree...
 

Evil Genius

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Now I know you're not going to believe me, but trust me........


<font color=red SIZE=5>THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GLOBAL WARMING!!!!!</font>


If you ask some actual scientists, they will all tell that global warming does not exist. 95%+ of all studies have proven this. There are papers out there that have been accredited by every major science journal that state this. However the media, and greenpeace hippie freaks, have instead decided to listen to the 5% minority of studies that use very flawed data and techniques to prove there is global warming.

The earth is actually cooling down over the last century. Most of the posters on this board are college students, do some research. Or ask one of your professors, you will be shocked.
 

elliot

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Counterpoint...

Counterpoint...

Does anyone want dirty air or water? Of course not.


The earth's environment is a cycle. Glaciers melt and freeze. The Great Lakes are a result of an ice age. The ozone "hole" at the South Pole is larger and smaller at different times of the year. Does anyone know what the ozone layer looked like in 1930? 1830? No, because the ozone has only been studied since the 1950s.

Can man destroy the earth, even if we wanted to? Ask a scientist how to do it. The earth heals itself. Did all the fish die when the Exxon Valdez spilled? Is it a barren wasteland? No. Of course Ted Danson said all the life in the ocean will die in 10 years if we don't do something. That was like 1991. Looks like we are getting a bonus.

A volcano produces more greenhouse gases in one eruption than man has ever produced in its history.

The best book I ever read was "Trashing the Planet" by Dixie Lee Ray. She was the governor of Washington state. She dispells the myths and fear tactics the environmentalists have been spouting.

How come the Greenpeace types are never held accountable when their doom and gloom predictions do not come true?

Add up all the pollution percentages the US is responsible for and I will wager that the numbers do not compute. "Ah, but that doesnt matter, it is the seriousness of the issue that counts"
 

hellah10

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Re: Counterpoint...

Re: Counterpoint...

elliot said:
A volcano produces more greenhouse gases in one eruption than man has ever produced in its history.

Seriously????? I didnt know that.

I still would like some changes made in the plants and industrial type places....cuz I use to live by a refinary for 6 months....and mannnn IT STUNK! Brotha just wants to breathe some clean air....none of this smog shit.

I dont know much about what causes the Earth the do what it does....I do know that the Earth heals itself....but it woulndt hurt to just clean up a little bit.
 

ferdville

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Volcanoes erupting, methane from dairy animals, and forest fires cause more damage to the environment and contribute more to the fallacy of "global warming" than all the "man-made" pollutants times 10. Evil Genius and Elliot - it is nice to hear an intelligent voice on this subject - one based on actual facts and not the ramblings of uniformed environmentalists. You guys aren't probably old enough to remember, but 25 years ago these same self-proclaimed saviors of the earth were screaming about the prospect of the world freezing over! The latest scientific study showed that only 1.5% of the environmental pollutants are the result of the automobile gasoline engine. Would it be wonderful to eliminate the 1.5% Of course it would.
 

ferdville

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Volcanoes erupting, methane from dairy animals, and forest fires cause more damage to the environment and contribute more to the fallacy of "global warming" than all the "man-made" pollutants times 10. Evil Genius and Elliot - it is nice to hear an intelligent voice on this subject - one based on actual facts and not the ramblings of uniformed environmentalists. You guys aren't probably old enough to remember, but 25 years ago these same self-proclaimed saviors of the earth were screaming about the prospect of the world freezing over! The latest scientific study showed that only 1.5% of the environmental pollutants are the result of the automobile gasoline engine. Would it be wonderful to eliminate the 1.5% Of course it would. I didn't read the piece on the Kyoto treaty, but I do know that the treaty imposed severe requirements on the United States that WERE NOT required of other countries. Once again, it would be the USA taking all the burden.
 

SixFive

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The Greenhouse Effect should have killed us all by now, at least that's what the wackos back in the 80s wanted us to believe. Amazing to me that people forget that crap and alarmism and just gravitate to new and a little different crap and alarmism. If u want to worry about something in the environment that is killing us that people don't know or care about or discount, check out RADON. That's the bad stuff.
 

dr. freeze

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always follow the $$ trail.......environmentalists need to make their jobs meaninful.....otherwise they would not have a job.....so they mold their "science" into what they want us to believe.....this practice is done everywhere.....its bad bad science....

there is no questions we shoudl be good stewards of the environment....but the environment has such complex feedback mechanisms many of which we still don't understand and do not have near enough complexity in our computer models to simulate.....

it is true that volcanoes destroy ozone more than humans have in their history.....and the more we destroy or volcanoes destroy the faster the mechanism to replace the ozone becomes in our atmosphere.... -- the more intense the UV light, the faster Oxygen converts to Ozone and BOOM the layer is replenished.....

it is funny how we can predice how the ozone layer has been "thinning" after a just finding the technology to measure it.....laughable at best.....the globalists want to control the activities of the U.S. and other countries and this is one small way they can do so.....Kyoto is one more step towards taking away US sovereignty.....

remember in the 70's -- what was the big scare then?? it was the "impending ice age"......lol....didn't take long for these wackos to get on the global warming bandwagon.....there is always an agenda behind these people and usually that involves $$ and power.....they should be exposed every time they come up with their messages of doom and unfortunately the liberal media buys into this hogwash......
 

dr. freeze

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skin cancer has risen since we do not have ozone in the air???? are you kidding me???

skin cancer is due to a number of things......people are in the sun a lot more -- beauty is now being dark....people bake themesleves in tanning beds.....the population is getting older.....and when that happens, cancers are going to cause more mortalities across the board as life expectancy increases....

there is absolutely NO good science behind stupid statements like this.....one follows the other after about 10 implications which are not proven in the least......
 

acehistr8

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The price of doubling the cost of industrial gas and electricity is a small price to pay for clean air, water, and life. Household income would drop by $2,728, most people wouldn?t even notice the drop. 2.5 million people would be out of work. They could find new jobs reducing pollution, like building electric cars, or research for cleaner industries. The job opportunities would be endless. We need this treaty to survive, live and prosper in the future. There are no excuses for not signing this treaty.
This is the most idealistic garblygook I have ever read. Try taking Econ 101. 2.5 million people out of work. You think that is OK and would have no effect on the economy? Try it would send this country spiriling into a depression. You think most people wouldnt notice missing 10% of their income (national average home @$30K/yr)? What are you thinking? Endless job opportunities? Uh no. They could find new jobs reducing pollution? What does that mean exactly, you think an industrial factory worker just has naturally transferable skills which would allow them to build electric cars or work in a research thinktank? All due respect but this person should reduce the pollution going into his/her brain.

This treaty is BULL - SHIT pure and simple, political grandstanding at its finest by countries weilding high anti-US sentiment, of which there are many. I think one thing you are failing to see, is why should the United States be the only large industrial country to do so? Why? Why? Why? Why?

Do you want so badly to PERHAPS make a dent in global warming that you are willing to sacrfice some potential competitive advantages to overseas countries? Where are the European countries? Where is Japan? And India? And China? I think this should tell you all you need to know about the substance of this treaty, which is in my opinion, EXTREMELY FLAWED. If it is such a great idea and such a great treaty, trust me, every single country would have signed on by now. They havent, because the treaty contains bad policy which the US in no way should or will attach itself to.

Depending on estimates you read, the US produces between a fifth and a quarter of all greenhouse gases in the world. Fine. We could argue that all day I guess as to whether those measurements are accurate, but fine I will give into that. By the way, thats a big IF. But what about the developing countries, they all get a pass I guess? Nonsense.

Being the only MAJOR signatory on this treaty would do significant harm to the economy when this country can ill afford to do so. The major way we would have to make up for this would be the use of natural gas, which we simply dont have in abundant supply and would cost an inordinate amount to industry in order to implement. Not only would we spend trillions of dollars and put millions of people out of work, then there is the whole issue of the US having to buy more carbon credits in order to function. We would be bankrupting ourselves.

People who disagree with me will say "Well the United States economy is one of the strongest in the world, they should go first." To which I say BULLSHIT. There is no way that the US ratifying the treaty in anyway gets the EU on board, or countries such as India and China and Japan (2.5 BILLION people between them).

When you take away the idealistic niceties from people who want us to sign this treaty you are left with bad policy that would put the US at a ridiculous comparative disadvantage to the rest of the industrialized world.
 
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ferdville

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As a resident of Southern California, I hear the "destroying the earth" theories on a regular basis. People mired in a morass of ignominy abound. The knowledgeable folks here at MJ's are a welcome relief.
 

Skinar

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There appears to me to be some good, accurate points being made here - perhaps gamblers are a bit more aware of the real facts than the population at large, that would make an interesting study, perhaps the government would chuck out a couple of million for one of us here at MJs place to conduct such a study.

But I digress:

While I firmly believe in the ability of the Earth to heal itself I am very concerned about the wholesale deforestation of the rainforests for this is the sink for the carbon dioxide that we continuously pump into the atmosphere. And the deforestation taking place right now will take several decades to reverse itself even it stopped completely tomorrow.

On a separate note, I would prefer that our government take the 120 billion to 1.3 trillion (pick your estimate) that it will cost to make war on Iraq and spend that money on finding alternatives to fossil fuels. I'm firmly convinced that this war is strictly about the oil now and that's why the Russians are against the whole deal, they have a lot of rubles invested in the Iraqi oil fields.

From what I read of the Kyoto Treaty we could never have lived up to it without becoming a third world country ourselves. Nuff said in my book. But I also think that we should do everything possible to keep our environment as clean as possible, even when it costs a little more at the pump or when electricity goes up. Of course, I also think that the 'free energy' theories will be solved in a couple of decades which will put all the oil companies out of business anyway and I'm really looking forward to that day.
 

Evil Genius

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Hey Skinar, don't worry about deforestation either. Trees only produce a minimal amout of the oxygen in the atmosphere (maybe 5 to 10 percent) Most people do not know this but 90% of the O2 we breathe comes from underwater algae!! Trees are pretty but not necessary.

The only pollution that is of any concern to humans is water pollution. There is no means to completely clean up a dirty water system. The biggest problem is the toxic runoff of plants into groundwater, especially Mercury. Minimal amounts of mercury can really screw up a person and once it is in the water there is no effective way to remove it.
 

fatdaddycool

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Last week the temperature in Fort Worth dropped to an unseasonably low 28 degrees farenheit......I immediately ran into the bathroom and got out four cans of aerosol hair spray.....went to the back porch and emptied them.....I want the hole in the ozone right above me, fuhk my kids I am cold now!! The only thing I care about global warming is if it will happen this week or not other than that........who cares, I will be dead and rotted by then, let my great grand kids deal with it.....little bastards never did anything for me.:D
 

Man O' Vegas

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Kyoto is nothing more than an attempt by evey UN-dependent country out there with weak socio-economic structures to compete economically with the U.S.
This garbage about the U.S. being the biggest offenders when it comes to CO2 is crap. Anyone who doesn't believe that needs to check out the NASA global imaging for CO2. You'll find the biggest offenders in E. Europe and China. Interestingly enough, those very countries are EXEMPT FROM THE TREATY!!!!
Funny how so-called environmentalists are more about anti-capitalism than they are about anti-pollution.
 

TIME TO MAKE $$$

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fatdaddycool said:
Last week the temperature in Fort Worth dropped to an unseasonably low 28 degrees farenheit......I immediately ran into the bathroom and got out four cans of aerosol hair spray.....went to the back porch and emptied them.....I want the hole in the ozone right above me, fuhk my kids I am cold now!!


That was just great!


:D :D
 
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