lots of politics lately, how about some RELIGION today, my friends at Jacks

[shamrock]

I'm nearly 40 years old, was raised Irish Catholic. The oldest Sunday morning memories I have are attending church & Sunday school every week. Was baptized Catholic, made FIRST COMMUNION, and was also CONFIRMED CATHOLIC. my Dad grew up a altar Boy, mother taught Sunday school for years.

All that said, I certainly consider myself a somewhat religious guy, without question believe in a God. Wear a Christian cross around my neck, however don't pass that donation basket my way. Can't consider myself Catholic & haven't been able to for some time.

For those that don't know, I suffered a catastrophic accident in 86', resulted in being paralyzed from the neck down. Without question God, faith, and even priest s & Pastors of various faiths served me well in many trying and difficult times.

At the same time, I'm from Massachusetts, home of father Porter, Cardinal Law, and father Geogian, who was recently murdered in prison, where he was serving a bid for child molestation, something I would consider about the most sinful sick and lowest of crimes.

In a time where 500 million is going to be spent by the Catholic church reimbursement for the molestation charges of nearly 5000 priests , all this being covered up & buried by the churches hierarchy over the last quarter century.

Meanwhile on the other aside of our nation, we have a Catholic Bishop running over a individual, just leaving him for dead. Just denying & ignoring the whole thing. WTF


just wondering what & how this sits with some other guys of similar background. I've been disenchanted with the Catholic church for some time, but recently has taken the cake, just curious of others thoughts.

Best
shamrock

 

[Penguinfan]

First off I am curious as to why you don't want the offering basket passed your way.

I am not catholic, and honestly disagree with alot of the catholic faith, but thats another argument for another time, as for your question about being disenchanted with it, well I would not be simply because in any faith, walk of life, job, or even family you will find bad apples and these are the ones you hear about. I am sure there are many Priests that are doing a bunch of good for their community, you just don't see those ones on the news.

Keep the faith
Penguinfan

 

[Master Capper]

Shamrock,

I went to a Catholic school and I have not been to a Mass for over 5 years, I have become disillusioned with religion in general. I think religion has become a tool to use for special interest groups to get their way. Also, more people die over religious causes per year than by any other means of murder, most of the wars in history have been started via religion. Dont get me wrong I still believe in many of the basic principles but I have taken the route of keeping my faith to myself and not participating in an organized setting. I can still recall many of the fire and brimstone preachers of the 80;s Jim Bakker and I cant recall the guy that got caught with the hooker in louisiana, but these guys made themselves multi millionaires praying on the weak whom they preached to, really turned me off on organized religion. This administration's use of religion and patriotism also are terrible in a free society, they remind me off Jim Bakkar as they preach that everyone is a sinner or not a patriot unless they view everything through the administrations eyes and all the while they are raking in the $$$.

 

[vinnyhockey]

Shamrock,

Come from a very similar background. Raised in a Catholic home. Had to go to church with the family each and every Sunday. Have had the same experiences with the Church. In the seventies in Newfoundland one of the largest sex scandeles took place with the Irish Chrtistian Brothers and the Church. The Bishop being told of the sexual deviant actions and choosing to do noithing. The Pope unlike Boston never ever said a word to the millions of Canadians that were affected by these acts. Many of these young boys went to school with me in and Irish Christian Brothers School. Many higher officials in Government and the police force new of these acts and did nothing (Thery were Catholics). My feeling s on religion are very jaded as I saw the effects on these young boys. Effects that will last a life time. I feel that the Church has not grown to present day and does not reflect my attitudes on present day society. That being said my wife takes my children to Church. I think the problem with the past is that we placed these people on a higher level and they were given to much power in our society. We were told never to question Father or Brother.

Vinny

 

[SixFive]

all of you who were raised Catholic and are disenchanted with it, here's a suggestion. Read your Bible and learn for yourself. I've never met a practicing Catholic yet who actually knew his Bible or even what they believe or why they believe it. I'm sure there are plenty of them out there, I've just yet to meet one.

An example, without trying to look it up, why do Catholics sprinkle babies when there is absolutely no example of sprinkling or infant baptism in the Bible?

I think being disenchanted with the Catholic church is pretty darn easy with all the stuff the "leaders" have done. However, Catholicism is not Christianity in general and should not be lumped in with it (nor with the televangelist bullshitters). Not Catholic bashing here, just my experience. We have quite a few former Catholics where I attend church; most of them have left for the above reasons.

PS Shamrock brought up giving. Here's my experience. Since I have been faithfully giving 10% of what I make to my local congregation, I have been blessed many times over financially, spiritually, and with life events. Giving should come from the heart and be something you want to do. Churches that keep up with what member A makes and what member A gives and send him a note saying he doesn't give enough are also rather disenchanting, and they are wrong for doing it(not kidding, that happens).

I enjoy religion discussions (kickserv calls me a bible thumper), thanks for the topic.

 

[gardenweasel]

shamrock

shamrock

man...i had no idea.......so very sorry to learn of your situation....

i`m speechless...we agree and disagree on many issues...you are always graceful and respectful and i enjoy the give and take.....particularly when you pulled me up on my harsh comments regarding mickey ward(lol)....dressed me down pretty good... .........

not gonna comment on the religious subject matter....i`m a guy that likes to think that i try and treat people decently...and do the right thing in most instances....one that has lapsed in his physical religious observances....just try and observe the golden rule and mind my own business...

but,i had no idea that you`d been dealt such a tough break....don`t know that i would have been able to deal with something of that nature as gracefully and successfully as you obviously have...

here we are(many of us) ...so pompous ....waxing political....acting like we know the answers.........then i hear of your situation and i feel silly as s-it....


whewww....bro.....best of luck....kind of caught me off guard....

i genuinely wish you all the best...i know they are working hard on spinal cord injury research...doing some good things...

i`ll be thinking good thoughts for you...g.l.

 

[AR182]

shamrock,

i usually stay away from religious topics. i only opened this thread because of my respect for you.

like gw, my jaw dropped when i read your post. i'm also sorry to learn about your situation.

i'm impressed that you still kept the faith, you are a much better man than me.

all the best

 

[shamrock]

thanks guys taking the time to respond


Penguin & 6/5, regarding donation/offering: not sure why exactly I included that in with the rest of my complaints regarding the church . Other hand of course the church through no actions other than there own, have accrued a 500 million dollar disaster. The willingness to able & abide criminal behavior throughout their ranks, knowingly turning the other cheek on such behavior & moving these molesting petiphials from parish to parish, State to State is to me beyond criminal. I strongly believe the punishments fiscal and otherwise should be burden on the church, not the Parishiners who have already suffered enough. Let them sell some of that million dollar property they hold.

V innie/master-thank you for the response.

6/5, as you have mentioned I have done lots of readings & studies, coming to many of my own conclusions. Regarding church itself I retain the following view:

Jesussaid: He who is near me is near the fire, and he who is far from me is far from the kingdom." (This was also cited by the ancient scholar Origen as the words of Jesus.)

"Split a piece of wood -- I am there; lift the stone and you will find me there."

these verses are from St. Thomas Gospel, actually probably exactly why the Vatican has buried these words. Churches are not needed for worship
Curious 6/5 of your opinion on this particular gospel

best
shamrock

 

[shamrock]

to my good friends Garden & ar182-thank you for the kind words. Although all of us never agree totally, common respect for each other and the ability to express our questions and concerns are what truly makes jacks the place it is. I always enjoy the given & take with both of you as well as the rest of jacks fine residence.

Best
shamrock

 

[loungelizard]

Still very active in the Catholic church yeah been tough lately but Christ walked with the sinners, was confirmed by then Bishop Law in the early 70s in Springfield Missouri, a decent man caught up in a very bad situation. As for Six Five comments I would only say with out the Catholic Church their would be no bible period and thats not faith thats fact, have read the bible several times, don't pretend to know it all, there is no mention of organs in church either but most churches use them, if your right hand causes you to sin cut it off...get the point. I can debate religious issues all night but won't, sorry for your situation and really hope the best for you.

Peace,
ll

 

[IntenseOperator]

Charity begins at home

 

[shamrock]

lizard-"Law, a decent man caught in in a bad situation"

I must strongly agree to disagree, to me there are no greater crimes than molesting a child. Law and his right hand man Murphy had knowledge and documented proof of what was going on throughout the northeast, and rather than deal with the problem and surrender some of these criminals over to authorities. They continually moved them to new neighborhoods with new innocent children like a back street shell game.

best
shamrock

 

[loungelizard]

Shamrock,

The situation yes very bad, but what the Catholic church faces is no priests, none, seminaries are empty, the good priests of which there are many are being looked at like molesters themselves, my point with Bishop Law is you get rid of the bad ones (which I very much agree with and he handled very very badly) who do you replace them with, I don't think Law was right in anyway shape or form, but good Lord what do ya do in that situation, just glad it aint me.

Peace,
LL

 

[SixFive]

no mention of organs in church either but most churches use them, if your right hand causes you to sin cut it off...get the point.

I would take the cutting off the hand to not be literal and I would argue that the early Church had many instruments, but like you say, we can debate theology all night, and that's not usually a winning proposition or productive. Again, I'm not a Catholic basher and apologize if I came off that way, just revealing my experiences.

As far as not having enough priests and nobody to fill the shoes of those already in service, when is the Catholic church going to allow the priests to get married? Again, I find nothing scripturally against that. Opinion?

Shamrock, I'm not familiar with the gospel of St. Thomas. Is that one that was considered uninspired and therefore not included?

Side note, shamrock, I've worked with many SCI patients in my life, and I too hope one day the medical advancements will help you. Remember when Worf from Star Trek TNG broke his back and Dr. Crusher made him a new spine, put it in, and he was back to normal? I think of that all the time and hope that will someday be a reality. Again, thanks for the topic, and expand on that St. Thomas scripture a little for me as I'm really not familiar with it.

 

[djv]

Could be if they had let them get married. They may have left the kids and them selfs alone. But Then you never know if they have a sickness they could have ended up just a lot of wife beaters.

 

[shamrock]

6/5-I have been all over the country over the Past 15 years, studying and learning about sci. Hopefully some day we'll see a cure. Amazing things have been achieved with stem cells, but that's another subject.

Regarding gospel of St. Thomas, they were discovered in Egypt around the same time as dead sea scrolls were discovered (1946) , widely agreed Vatican has suppressed most of these.

 

[shamrock]

6/5


http://www.bonsai-east.com/rarebird/lostgos.htm

 

[ceciol]

Ooh, this is an even stickier topic that politics, that's for sure. Honestly, I feel a bit queasy about chiming in, but I've found that most people here can share and argue and discuss without mudslinging, so here goes. I'll share...

I was raised Catholic. We attended reasonably faithfully as a family growing up. I never questioned the teachings.

When I went to college, I stopped going to church, moreso out of feeling it was silly to do these weekly rituals, when "God should know" that I am a good person, and I don't need to go to church to prove that.

I received a technical/scientific education, and even though it seemed obvious that Creationism and Evolution were in direct conflict, it didn't dawn on me (for what I consider to be my naivety) to question.

Now, several years later, and in my mid-30's, I am staunchly anti-religious, and a non-believer in any god.

When I finally took a second to think about it all a few years ago, in my mind, not only Catholicism, but the whole idea of a God seems so ridiculously absurd to me. It's no different than Santa Claus. In my thinking, the Bible is one hell of a work of fiction (and boy, wouldn't the authors be interested in the royalties, if they had only known).

There is zero reason (again, in my mind) to believe in the existence of a God any moreso than believing in the Easter Bunny.

However, I will say a couple things: religion is one means throughout history that has kept people in line, behaving humanely/properly. I think a lot of people would be less considerate of consequences if they didn't have their god to answer to (in their minds).

[Of course, on the flip side, it has made zealots fearless: those zany kamikaze suicide bombers truly believe that they are going to see their god... I find that oh so disturbing.]

I also think that it "works" for a lot of people. In other words, if it keeps you going, keeps your head on in times of difficulty, gives you something to look forward to in death, or gives you hope, then go for it. It is not a source of inspiration for me personally.

I also believe that religion is a large cause, if not the greatest cause, of strife in the world.

There's more, but these are just some of my rambling thoughts... I do not criticize anyone's choice. I just do not wish to be put upon.

I think it is no secret that the non-religious and god-less, such as myself, in this day and age, are a tiny fraction of all humans; and that's kind of scary to me.

I do not voice my opinions too loudly because I feel that I would be seen as "a bad seed" for being non-religious; and for a country built on religious freedom, I find that sad. As a white male, it is the only group with which I identify with as being a "minority".

(By they way, one of the reasons Bush makes me angry, though I support him overall, is his religious fervor. Scary stuff.)

 

[JT]

Shamrock, it seems to me the failure of the Catholic Church to rid themselves of these characters is very similar to how other organizations fail to rid themselves of criminal/unethical elements. Be it politicians, army, police, etc. I am sure it is troubling but as they say the real country is in your heart, so is your faith. As for me, I was raised a Catholic but consider myself a agnostic right now but that is another discussion. Good luck to you...

 

[vinnyhockey]

well siad JT, very tue the church in many cases chose to turn a blind eye on these events. This in itself kills me. I remember being in high school and having a brother tell me that being gay in the orders was all right, he was the same guy who made me very uncomfortable with his physical action and I was forced to change highschools. The problem with these orders is that it was a haven for men that were gay at a time that being gay was not a good thing in society. DO not get me wrong I am not GAY BASHING. Each person has a right to have any form of relationship they choose with another consenting adult. My point is that they were not able to deal with being who they wanted to be. My true belief is that the church must move to have married individuals move to the orders. Will not happen but that is my feeling.

Vinny