Manager report card

[Kevin]

I thought this might be a good thread to start seeing as though we're all spread out across the united states and what better info than regional info? I watch a ton of games, but am obviously unable to see them all. I would like anybody whose interested in posting to give your local mlb manager a report card including some analysis. Managers are something that we all at times (often lol) forget to factor into a game while capping it. Then comes game time, we sit in our recliners and watch only to see our shoe sized iq manager make a blunderous move by not pinch hitting, not pulling a pitcher, or even worse, yanking a pitcher when he's got a three hitter then bringing in the bullpen to blow our "investment". Don't be fooled, managers are important when capping, that is if you want to win.

I'll start off by saying that Dusty Baker is the worst manager I've ever seen. This guy will be in the 7th or 8th inning, have the sacks jammed with 0 or 1 out, and the pitcher coming up. Think he'll pinch hit? No. Why?...shit, you tell me. The guy always makes horrible calls. To top it off, you'll find boxscores in which his starting pitcher has given up twice as many earned runs as they have innings pitched. RED FLAG.

Since I'm an optimist and consider myself a positive person, I can't go out on a negative note so I'll give big fat props to unemployed Felipe Alou. This guy yanks pitchers when their sucking, plays righty vs. lefty situations perfectly, and leaves a guy out on the hill when he's pitching well. Go figure that Montreal axed him, like its his fault. This guy will reappear and flourish just like Grissom, Walker, Deshields, and Randy Johnson did. The Expos need to be sold, they are the clippers of mlb. A team with loads of potential, and an ownership/administration that couldn't find their dicks if they were on their foreheads. Props to you Alou, I'm sure we'll see you in ATL soon.

[This message has been edited by Kevin (edited 06-12-2001).]

 

[Mr. Promises Delivered]

I'm surprised I don't see you ripping Jimmy Williams a new asshole.

He in my opinion is the very worst manager in baseball but I agree with you Dusty Baker is bad too especially with pitching decisions.

 

[Kevin]

My bad. Jimmy Williams is indeed the worst manager in the bigs. No explanation needed.

 

[wondo]

I like Jimmy Williams. When you criticize these managers, consider yourself trying to manage someone like Carl Everett. Add to that Dante Bichette, too. And now you lose Varitek so even more of the leadership needs shift to the manager. But overall, you're missing the point of playing a sport if you take the view that a manager must win a particular game. They don't try to build bankroll. They win their 'wager' if they make the playoffs and advance in the postseason. If that means dropping a game or two along the way, so be it. Sure, maybe you should red flag some managers that are harder to bet on/against. But to say that it reflects poorly on their managerial skills in a baseball sense, is ridiculous. I think you ought to refocus your concern on the hardest managers to bet, not calling them the worst.

Baker and Williams must be awful. Both should be canned. They only combined for 182 regular season wins last year.

[This message has been edited by wondo (edited 06-12-2001).]

 

[Mr. Promises Delivered]

Actually I'm not even talking from a gamblers sake, I'm talking from a person who knows the sport well.

Jimmy Williams can not manage period! Don't give me these excuses about Carl Everett, Dante Bichette etc... A good manager finds a way to overcome that.

Secondly I don't care how may wins they combined for? How many world series have they won?

In the end that is what matters, not how many games you won in the regular season.

 

[wondo]

Well, we have a complete difference of opinion on how a good manager should treat the team and handle the players. I like Williams because he makes the players tow the line, and holds them accountable on and off of the field. The Red Sox would self-combust if Williams and Kerrigan were gone. They take the right approach to having modesty and being humble. You can't get into a pissing contest with players that have such big egos, or nothing would be accomplished as far as learning and development goes. You can't win with Carl Everett or anyone acting the way he does. He's just one example of that type of player, but they're all over the league.

Our main difference of opinion seems to be that I feel strongly that any monkey out of the jungle can coach during the game. A coach doesn't win many games on the field, and they don't lose many games on the field. In any sport, in order to win, you need a team with character, not a team of characters.

 

[Junior44]

Disagree totally on Dusty Baker. This is a 2-time NL manager of the year, who constantly has overachieving teams. Which leads me to the following subject...What precisely constitutes a good manager? I firmly believe that "game-day" decision making (by managers) is grossly overrated. How many crucial decisions does a manager make during a game? Three? Five maybe? And most of the decisions made by managers are common sense moves (pulling your starter, bringing in a lefty to face a lefty, etc). In the American League, it's even less. With all due respect to Joe Torre, how many times have you seen him scheming in the dugout? Not very often. He just sits on the bench, has his starter go 7, bring in Nelson/Stanton and Rivera for the 9th. I believe the REAL role of a baseball manager is managing the commaraderie of the players and achieving some type of team unity/chemisty. And you have to be respected by your players or you're finished (See Boles). I mean, you're talking about a group of men who are basically together from April to October, and things can get a tad testy. I also think it's very important for a manager to use ALL his players and make them feel as if they contribute to the team, whether it be through platooning, late-inning defense replacement, on and on. In my opinion, there hasn't been a manager in baseball in the last 7-10 years who does this as well as Dusty Baker. And you would be hard-pressed to find a guy who is more respected by his players. He is fair and he has played the game. Without sounding like a homer, Bruce Bochy has these qualities, as do guys like Tom Kelly and Davey Lopes, and Torre himself.

As far as bad managers, there are plenty, but I'll try and whittle it down. I think Tony LaRussa has accomplished less with more than anybody in the last 10 or so years. He is not well-liked around the league, and even by some of his own players. And he overmanages, probably driven by his ego. Bobby Valentine is very similar in the fact that when he first joins a team, the team does just fine, but players question him behind his back, and he ultimately losses the repect of his players. This is happening right now, and Valentine will not make it thorough the season.

Bottom line, I feel team chemistry, team unity, a high confidance level, and a manager whom you respect and want to win for are the key components

[This message has been edited by Junior44 (edited 06-12-2001).]

 

[wondo]

I like your thoughts Junior. I feel the same way about in-game managing. I disagree with you a little bit on Valentine. I used to share that opinion of him, but after speaking with him, I think his reputation is not necessarily true. I have a much different opinon of him now. But who knows -- it's always important to remember that there are two sides to every story -- especially when you only see one side in the press. Whether it's a manager, player, or whoever.

 

[Kevin]

JR, SF has a poor record this year. Whatchu talkin' bout Willis?

Oh, and hey, how dare the card companies get rid of the "TEAM" card they used to have. I didn't even realize it until I tried to remember back when Dusty was a good manager and it popped in my head. lol...I like Bochy, but he reminds me of a fish head?

Sincerely,

Baskerville Holmes

[This message has been edited by Kevin (edited 06-12-2001).]

 

[dogday]

Aren't we forgetting to give Mr. Don Baylor his props for bringing the Cubs from the cellar to the ceiling?

 

[meatman]

Still not sure how to critique Don Baylor
as a manger. Last year the pitching was
very very bad and that means LOSSES and that
usually leads you to criticize the manager.
This year the pitching, to this point,
has exceeded expectations and the team
is winning and Baylor is viewed in a better
light, I suppose. Personally, I attend several games and watch the others on the tube
and I can honestly say, some of the moves
and non-moves of Mr. Baylor continue to baffle me. Grade of C-

 

[barkeep]

my vote so far for best manager is: and the envelope please--- larry bowa!! i know i'm a homer, but this guy has put a fire in the belly of his players, takes no crap, and knows the game. A+
ps. jimmy williams does suck!( ok pedro your at 90 pitches, have a seat...)

 

[shultz]

Sorry Wondo, but Williams is a idiot. Yes managers can win games. They put on the hit and run. steal a few bases, make pitching changes. Jimmy Williams does not play with any emotion, he would rather sit back witha 1 run game than try to extend a lead. His pinch hitters are (around 0-26 I believe) and a lot of those were just poor managerial decisions! Sorry give me a person with a little emotion and willing to take a chance once in a while any day over a bump on a log.

 

[wondo]

You might be right, Schultz. The shorter a season gets (ie 5 game series, or 7 game series) the more important the skipper becomes. Day to day, its the players that must execute, and there's nothing magical about making moves. Any high school, college, or pro coach probably tends to do the same thing in virtually every situation. Its the same old story of everyone in the park knowing what will happen, but which player executes?

But to the other guy who is complaining about Pedro coming out after low pitch counts -- I may take exception. First, Pedro averages almost 110 pitches per game; but in general, that's the thinking of many managers and teams to try to save their top pitchers for late in the season. And it works. That's why some guys can come back 3 times in a 7 game season because they weren't abused earlier in the year.

But anyway, my last general comment on this matter is my feeling that it is too hard to judge who is good and who isn't. Some of the best teachers are the worst managers. How can you compare Lau to Eppstein or Ted Williams or whomever. They are all teachers, but you can't really classify who is the most knowledgable. They focus on different things that work for some but not for others. Same for pitching coaches. Teams need different personalities from year to year and person to person. A guy that is successful one place might crap the bed somewhere else. But as caoches go, I like the guys that don't reinvent the wheel. Baseball has been played for a hundred years and things haven't changed that much. I think the guys that learn the basics and enforce the fundamentals will have the most long term success. Guys that come in a whirlwind and try to teach these new ideas outwit themselves, in my opinion.

 

[Anders]

Really good thread this.
Wish I could contribute but know two-thirds of f**k all about baseball compared to almost everyone else in this forum.
But I am learning and threads like this help a lot more than just a list of plays.
I also like the way there has been quite a difference of opinion here but no personal jibes at other posters

Thanks again

 

[iusam]

Meatman, I agree totally on Don Baylor. I don't think he hurts the Cubs but I don't think he really helps them either. He seems to be the figurehead of a rolling ship. For my money, the best manager we had in the past 15 years was Don Zimmer, who not coincidentally has won a few championships in the last few years as Torre's right hand man...(or maybe the man behind the man?)

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0,0,1,2,3,5,8,13,21....

 

[Kevin]

Sorry for the tangent but I kinda miss Billy Martin getting fired up. I also don't miss seeing Leo Mazzone rock back and forth. Speaking of which, Go Bluejays!

 

[Junior44]

Originally posted by Kevin:
JR, SF has a poor record this year. Whatchu talkin' bout Willis?

Oh, and hey, how dare the card companies get rid of the "TEAM" card they used to have. I didn't even realize it until I tried to remember back when Dusty was a good manager and it popped in my head. lol...I like Bochy, but he reminds me of a fish head?

Fish Head...LMAO!!! Can't argue with ya there...Did you know that Bochy has to have his hats specially made. Guy wears like a 9 1/4 cap...Monster head. Reminds me of one of those wobble-head dolls people have on their dashboards....LOL. Oh, and I miss those team cards too. What happened to those? And tell me I'm not the only guy who used to cut those rookie cards with 4 players on it into 4 little squares. I think I have a few Rod Carews about the size of a postage stamp floatin' round here. Also, remember when a guy got traded during the off-season and they used to paint a different hat on the guy? I think I have a 78' Dave Kingman, that if you look close enough, you can actually see the brush marks....LOL

 

[JT Sneaks]

Nice thread Kevin

My take on managers and williams in paticular..

I don't need emotion as much as I need W's, and the bottom line I see is no nomar in the lineup and three games up in the AL east. Also williams is not as dumb as he looks

He has done himself a sevice by surrounding himself with great coaches to make him look good. Anoth example of surrounding yourself with good coaches would be Toronto.


Just my 2 pennies...

Sneaks

 

[meatman]

iusam, it's funny you mentioned "Zimma"
as your fav Cub manager. He was my kind of
guy, if for no other reason, that he loved
to gamble, especially on the ponies and would rarely play the chalk. Had the
fortune to talk to him at length several
years ago at Spring Training-a real straight
shooter and tell-it-like-it-is. I am glad
for him that he has been part of the Yankee
Championships.