Marx?s Revenge: How Class Struggle Is Shaping the World

ChrryBlstr

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theGibber1

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Oooooops....

"With the global economy in a protracted crisis, and workers around the world burdened by joblessness, debt and stagnant incomes, Marx?s biting critique of capitalism ? that the system is inherently unjust and self-destructive ? cannot be so easily dismissed."

Peace! :)

http://business.time.com/2013/03/25/marxs-revenge-how-class-struggle-is-shaping-the-world/

Sooo your contention is that Capitalism has failed and the Communist had it right all along? Then why are we still here and every communist country in Europe failed? Of course countries like Cuba and North Korea are still communist.. I hear its just lovely in these places..:0008 I suppose China still consider themselves communist, but are you seriously going to tell me everything is fair and equal there??

I don?t think Marx was an evil man or anything.. I can see what he was reaching for but his theories are fundamentally flawed..
Everyone work to the best of their ability but take only what you need just isn?t realistic. Why should I give more than what I take when this other guy takes and gives nothing?
Not saying the way things are done here is perfect.. But I?m not ready to hand over the controls totally to government and let them ration out my necessities to what they consider fair.
 

ChrryBlstr

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Sooo your contention is that Capitalism has failed and the Communist had it right all along? Then why are we still here and every communist country in Europe failed? Of course countries like Cuba and North Korea are still communist.. I hear its just lovely in these places..:0008 I suppose China still consider themselves communist, but are you seriously going to tell me everything is fair and equal there??

I don?t think Marx was an evil man or anything.. I can see what he was reaching for but his theories are fundamentally flawed..
Everyone work to the best of their ability but take only what you need just isn?t realistic. Why should I give more than what I take when this other guy takes and gives nothing?
Not saying the way things are done here is perfect.. But I?m not ready to hand over the controls totally to government and let them ration out my necessities to what they consider fair.

Man, why must it ALWAYS be a paradigm of two with you? OK, OK, I'll attempt to make this as concise as possible.

My contention, one that is shared by many other academics, is that capitalism has NOT failed. In fact, it is functioning as it should - further polarizing the rich and the poor, while diminishing the middle class.

From the article: "Marx theorized that the capitalist system would inevitably impoverish the masses as the world?s wealth became concentrated in the hands of a greedy few, causing economic crises and heightened conflict between the rich and working classes. 'Accumulation of wealth at one pole is at the same time accumulation of misery, agony of toil, slavery, ignorance, brutality, mental degradation, at the opposite pole,' Marx wrote."

Again, I would never profess to be a Marxist scholar. One could spend their entire career writing on, working and explaining just one of his works, even just one of his chapters, that's how complex it truly is. So my understanding of Marx is, admittedly, lacking and superficial at best.

However, getting back to your question, it's not a matter of capitalism failing (which I've already addressed) nor communism succeeding. Because ultimately, capitalism is first and foremost an economic theory (albeit implicated and working in conjunction with democracy), while communism is a political state (albeit implicated and working in conjunction with socialism - for the most part). So if you really wanted to make a comparison, then you would have to compare capitalism with socialism. And if this were the case, I would argue that despite what many would have us believe, REAL socialism (on a grand scale) has never been implemented. Instead, what we've witnessed are variations of socialism wherein far too many (rich) people still possessed power over others. So yes, I would agree that these scenarios have ultimately failed - as they should - but have never been indicative of what real socialism should/could be.

Off the top of my head, effective smaller scale examples of socialism include the Philly Socialists (who, among other things, provide free ESL classes to those that want/need it), smaller communities that have reverted back to a simple trading system, etc.

And getting back to Marx, many of his theories have come to fruition. Look at reification and commodity fetishism - I would argue that most people nowadays are unable to distinguish between simple need and want, not to mention the magical and supernatural attributes that we have since ascribed on to commodities of all kinds!

And what about the whole idea of becoming distanced from what we actually produce? Not only is this true, but (I would argue) also extends to the things that we want. We are so far removed from their production that many of us no longer question how things come to being. It doesn't take much, but a quick study will reveal that far too many things are created unethically in one way or another.

Look, I'm not even saying that socialism is the be all and end all. And attempting to shift dominant ideology and common perceptions will be extremely difficult. However, what I do know is that as it stands right now, as it has for countless centuries, the majority of us are still functional slaves to those that truly hold the power.

Let me end this with two questions. When feudalism ended, what do you think happened to those (kings, lords, etc.) that held power at the time? And what happened to their respective fortunes?

Peace! :)
 

krc

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Man, why must it ALWAYS be a paradigm of two with you? OK, OK, I'll attempt to make this as concise as possible.

My contention, one that is shared by many other academics, is that capitalism has NOT failed. In fact, it is functioning as it should - further polarizing the rich and the poor, while diminishing the middle class.

From the article: "Marx theorized that the capitalist system would inevitably impoverish the masses as the world?s wealth became concentrated in the hands of a greedy few, causing economic crises and heightened conflict between the rich and working classes. 'Accumulation of wealth at one pole is at the same time accumulation of misery, agony of toil, slavery, ignorance, brutality, mental degradation, at the opposite pole,' Marx wrote."

Again, I would never profess to be a Marxist scholar. One could spend their entire career writing on, working and explaining just one of his works, even just one of his chapters, that's how complex it truly is. So my understanding of Marx is, admittedly, lacking and superficial at best.

However, getting back to your question, it's not a matter of capitalism failing (which I've already addressed) nor communism succeeding. Because ultimately, capitalism is first and foremost an economic theory (albeit implicated and working in conjunction with democracy), while communism is a political state (albeit implicated and working in conjunction with socialism - for the most part). So if you really wanted to make a comparison, then you would have to compare capitalism with socialism. And if this were the case, I would argue that despite what many would have us believe, REAL socialism (on a grand scale) has never been implemented. Instead, what we've witnessed are variations of socialism wherein far too many (rich) people still possessed power over others. So yes, I would agree that these scenarios have ultimately failed - as they should - but have never been indicative of what real socialism should/could be.

Off the top of my head, effective smaller scale examples of socialism include the Philly Socialists (who, among other things, provide free ESL classes to those that want/need it), smaller communities that have reverted back to a simple trading system, etc.

And getting back to Marx, many of his theories have come to fruition. Look at reification and commodity fetishism - I would argue that most people nowadays are unable to distinguish between simple need and want, not to mention the magical and supernatural attributes that we have since ascribed on to commodities of all kinds!

And what about the whole idea of becoming distanced from what we actually produce? Not only is this true, but (I would argue) also extends to the things that we want. We are so far removed from their production that many of us no longer question how things come to being. It doesn't take much, but a quick study will reveal that far too many things are created unethically in one way or another.

Look, I'm not even saying that socialism is the be all and end all. And attempting to shift dominant ideology and common perceptions will be extremely difficult. However, what I do know is that as it stands right now, as it has for countless centuries, the majority of us are still functional slaves to those that truly hold the power.

Let me end this with two questions. When feudalism ended, what do you think happened to those (kings, lords, etc.) that held power at the time? And what happened to their respective fortunes?

Peace! :)

Nice post.

(capitalism/communism/socialism)
The ones that make out the best are the politicians and their friends :0071
 

ImFeklhr

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In a way it's all semantics. If the United States was ever 'pure' capitalism, it was more than 100 years ago.

Social Security IS socialism, and it has been around for 75 years.
So if the United States was the greatest country in the world during the 20th century and had socialist programs... <head explodes>

We have no clue if pure capitalism works in the modern world, because it doesn't exist. Not even close.
 

ChrryBlstr

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In a way it's all semantics. If the United States was ever 'pure' capitalism, it was more than 100 years ago.

Social Security IS socialism, and it has been around for 75 years.
So if the United States was the greatest country in the world during the 20th century and had socialist programs... <head explodes>

We have no clue if pure capitalism works in the modern world, because it doesn't exist. Not even close.

Totally agree!

Peace! :)
 
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ChrryBlstr

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explained in a much more lucid way....

explained in a much more lucid way....

" Marx was not opposed to competition (this is the biggest misconception about his theory). He did think that what is typically called 'creative destruction' was a good thing. His opposition, in the simplest terms, was rooted in the removal of ownership of the means of production from the people who were working on it. In other words, the concentration of capital among those who can afford to own the factories, and the subsequent dependency for employment by those owners on the people who worked in the factories in order to afford food, clothing and shelter was inherently anti-democratic and permanently so. The result was a system that could most accurately be described as 'wage slavery' - dependent on jobs handed down from the owners of capital to feed oneself, etc.

The end result being that, once you've broken down barriers to production (we call this globalization), the labor market invariably begins a race to the bottom - production will happen where workers are forced to accept the lowest wage (remember the point of any capitalist enterprise is to minimize expenditure and maximize revenue). In this sense, that the end goal of capitalism is to make the most amount of money per unit produced and sold and to spend the lowest amount possible per unit sold, the expenditure on labour is usually the most flexible part of the equation. This results in higher returns, but - over the extreme long term - a drastic reduction in the amount of capital circulating among the working classes.

I think that's more what the article was talking about. 'Profit' is a difficult term as we tend to use it as a signifier of the amount of capital accumulated rather than circulated. Concentration is the problem - at least that was a component of Marx's thinking on the subject."

Peace! :)
 

Duff Miver

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Man, why must it ALWAYS be a paradigm of two with you? OK, OK, I'll attempt to make this as concise as possible.

My contention, one that is shared by many other academics, is that capitalism has NOT failed. In fact, it is functioning as it should - further polarizing the rich and the poor, while diminishing the middle class.

From the article: "Marx theorized that the capitalist system would inevitably impoverish the masses as the world?s wealth became concentrated in the hands of a greedy few, causing economic crises and heightened conflict between the rich and working classes. 'Accumulation of wealth at one pole is at the same time accumulation of misery, agony of toil, slavery, ignorance, brutality, mental degradation, at the opposite pole,' Marx wrote."

Again, I would never profess to be a Marxist scholar. One could spend their entire career writing on, working and explaining just one of his works, even just one of his chapters, that's how complex it truly is. So my understanding of Marx is, admittedly, lacking and superficial at best.

However, getting back to your question, it's not a matter of capitalism failing (which I've already addressed) nor communism succeeding. Because ultimately, capitalism is first and foremost an economic theory (albeit implicated and working in conjunction with democracy), while communism is a political state (albeit implicated and working in conjunction with socialism - for the most part). So if you really wanted to make a comparison, then you would have to compare capitalism with socialism. And if this were the case, I would argue that despite what many would have us believe, REAL socialism (on a grand scale) has never been implemented. Instead, what we've witnessed are variations of socialism wherein far too many (rich) people still possessed power over others. So yes, I would agree that these scenarios have ultimately failed - as they should - but have never been indicative of what real socialism should/could be.

Off the top of my head, effective smaller scale examples of socialism include the Philly Socialists (who, among other things, provide free ESL classes to those that want/need it), smaller communities that have reverted back to a simple trading system, etc.

And getting back to Marx, many of his theories have come to fruition. Look at reification and commodity fetishism - I would argue that most people nowadays are unable to distinguish between simple need and want, not to mention the magical and supernatural attributes that we have since ascribed on to commodities of all kinds!

And what about the whole idea of becoming distanced from what we actually produce? Not only is this true, but (I would argue) also extends to the things that we want. We are so far removed from their production that many of us no longer question how things come to being. It doesn't take much, but a quick study will reveal that far too many things are created unethically in one way or another.

Look, I'm not even saying that socialism is the be all and end all. And attempting to shift dominant ideology and common perceptions will be extremely difficult. However, what I do know is that as it stands right now, as it has for countless centuries, the majority of us are still functional slaves to those that truly hold the power.

Let me end this with two questions. When feudalism ended, what do you think happened to those (kings, lords, etc.) that held power at the time? And what happened to their respective fortunes?

Peace! :)

Nice work Chrry. It's too bad -

There are none so blind as those who will not see, and none so deaf as those who will not hear.


To which I add: None so foolish as those who will not think.


Their motto is always: Don't let facts get in the way of ignorance.

I'm no Communist or socialist either, but I can understand that, to paraphrase Lincoln and others: We are in this together. Either we cooperate or we fail.
 
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Duff Miver

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but are you seriously going to tell me everything is fair and equal there??

I didn't hear anyone say that, did you?

But, gibber, ask the other side of that question: Is it "fair" that Jamie Dimon fucks a half million folks up the ass and gets paid more than all of them put together?

It's absloutely amazing. You so-called capitalists will bend over and grease up your own bunghole for the Jamie Dimons. The American Psych Association needs to add a new diagnosis: Terminal stupidity.
 

krc

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In a way it's all semantics. If the United States was ever 'pure' capitalism, it was more than 100 years ago.

Social Security IS socialism, and it has been around for 75 years.
So if the United States was the greatest country in the world during the 20th century and had socialist programs... <head explodes>

We have no clue if pure capitalism works in the modern world, because it doesn't exist. Not even close.

I agree :0074
 

Happy Hippo

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Just finished a very sad book about capitalism and the growing division in classes, and the exploitation of the environment and poor. Unfortunately, capitalism doesn't take these factors into account - it is about the "free" pursuit of money, but on the way people are dispossessed and destroyed.

Anyway, good book for those interested:

Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt
 

ChrryBlstr

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Just finished a very sad book about capitalism and the growing division in classes, and the exploitation of the environment and poor. Unfortunately, capitalism doesn't take these factors into account - it is about the "free" pursuit of money, but on the way people are dispossessed and destroyed.

Anyway, good book for those interested:

Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt

Thanks, HH. Just came across this quote as well, which is exactly what's happening....

"A basic principle of modern state capitalism is that costs and risks are socialized to the extent possible, while profit is privatized." - Noam Chomsky
 
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