med students sue!!!!!

dr. freeze

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May 7, 2002
New York Times

Medical Students Sue Over Residency System
By ADAM LIPTAK
Every March, graduating medical school students wait anxiously for Match Day, when a computer tells them where they will spend the next several years as medical residents in teaching hospitals.
A class-action lawsuit to be filed in Washington today challenges the matching program on antitrust grounds. The suit says the defendants, including seven medical organizations and more than 1,000 private hospitals, have used the program to keep residents' wages low and hours long. Almost all first-year residents make less than $40,000 a year and often work 100-hour weeks.
If the suit is successful, the nation's health care system faces an enormous financial liability and the prospect of being forced to change the way that generations of doctors have been trained.
More than 80 percent of first-year residency positions are offered exclusively through the program, known formally as the National Resident Matching Program. The matches are based on ranked lists submitted by hospitals and the 15,000 or so students, and both sides agree in advance to accept the match.
There is no room for negotiations about wages, hours or other terms of employment. As a consequence, the plaintiffs say, the hospitals, which share detailed salary information with each other, can force residents to accept below-market wages for the three to eight years, depending on specialty, of their residencies.
"The match basically controls where you are going to spend the first part of your professional life," said Dr. Paul Jung, one of the plaintiffs, who is now a fellow at Johns Hopkins University. Yet, he said, "you're expressly forbidden from having any kind of agreement about any kind of salary or anything."
Lloyd Constantine, who was New York's top antitrust official for a decade and is not involved in the suit, said the case raised important issues. "If this were coal or steel or autos, it would flat out be a felony and would probably be prosecuted criminally," he said of the matching system.
Alvin Roth, an economics professor at Harvard, redesigned the system in 1997. He said it merely ensured that medical students obtain the best residencies they could. This fosters competition, he said, which the antitrust laws are meant to protect.
But James F. Blumstein, an expert in health care regulation at Vanderbilt Law School in Nashville, said that the matching program "does prevent competition in the sense that you can't entertain competing offers."
"It's not only salaries but also access to opportunities," he said. "It's hard to see what the pro-competitive justification is here."
Defenders of the matching program say that it is a mistake to think about it in purely commercial terms. They say residencies serve an important social purpose in training doctors and providing care for patients. Whether the antitrust laws should take account of these kinds of arguments is the subject of debate.
"It's not exactly a job, it's a continuation of a medical education," said Kevin Jon Williams, a professor of medicine at Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia, who has written extensively on the matching program.
Sherman Marek, a Chicago lawyer whose law firm, along with 14 others, represents the plaintiffs, said there was nothing special about jobs that educate. "In any employment, the employee is acquiring skills that can then be taken elsewhere, so there is always an education element," he said. "Nevertheless, market forces are allowed to operate."
Lawyers for the plaintiffs declined to speculate on how much residents' salaries might change if the matching program were eliminated.
Representatives of the medical organizations declined to comment on the lawsuit or did not return calls.
Residents' wages are certainly both low for the profession and uniform. According to the Association of American Medical Colleges, which operates the program and is a defendant in the suit, the average first-year resident, having completed four years of medical school, is paid $37,383. In the Northeast, the average is $39,060; in the South, the average is $35,552.
Hundred-hour workweeks for residents are common, meaning that they often make less than $10 an hour.
"They get less money than nurses and physician's assistants," said Michael J. Freed, a lawyer for the plaintiffs.
The plaintiffs' legal papers say the uniformity of the wages proves that something is wrong.
"Employers pay residents standardized salaries, regardless of such factors as program prestige, medical specialty, geographic location, resident merit and year of employment," the papers argue. "With few exceptions, employers pay salaries very close to the national average and very close to each other. By contrast, post-residency physicians earn widely varying compensations based on these factors, especially geographic location and medical specialty."
But Professor Roth, the system designer, said the similarities in wages by themselves prove nothing. "If you're looking at prices, both competition and collusion look similar," he said. Moreover, "people would be willing to pay to take these slots," he said, referring to the most desirable positions.
George L. Priest, a professor at Yale Law School who was a consultant to the plaintiffs, disagreed. "The salary data is highly suspicious," he said. "There is no good reason why doctors after four years of graduate school should make a quarter of what lawyers make."
The low wages and long hours have serious consequences, Dr. Jung said. "I had to constantly battle fatigue as a factor affecting the quality of my life and the lives of my patients," he said.
Dr. Jung, 32, said his residency at the MetroHealth Medical Center in Cleveland was dispiriting.
Hospitals "use residents as cheap labor," he said. "I had the expectation, maybe na?vely, that a lot of time would be spent with patients."
Instead, Dr. Jung said, he performed many menial and administrative tasks. "It was a lot more hours and a lot less patient care than I expected," he said.
He added: "Residents want to be treated fairly, and patients want to be treated well. Patient care will improve if you let residents have more say in their working conditions."
The Justice Department looked into the residency matching program in the mid-1990's. It reached a settlement with an association that administered a separate program for family practice residencies, but did not challenge the main program. Professor Roth said this meant the government had given the hospital matching program "a clean bill of health."
Mr. Constantine said that the professional training aspect of residents' work made it difficult to predict the outcome of the case. "There is a level of sentimentality" among judges, he said. "They will listen to excuses they would not listen to in the context of a purely commercial situation," he said.
Professor Blumstein said those excuses should not play a role in antitrust analysis. "The better view and the correct view is that antitrust law does not allow for worthy purposes to offset the anticompetitive actions," he said.
The closest analogy, Mr. Constantine said, is the civil suit that the federal government brought a decade ago against the eight Ivy League colleges and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology challenging their cooperation in setting student financial aid. The case ended in settlements that limited the amount of information the institutions could share.
Such information sharing is even more problematic when salaries are involved, he said. "The medical world really is closer to coal, steel and autos than to colleges giving out financial aid," he said.
Critics compare the residency matching program to early decision programs at colleges. They say that colleges accepting applicants through early decision can offer less attractive financial aid packages because there is no competition for those students, just as hospitals can pay residents low wages because they have nowhere else to go.
The stakes in the new suit are high. The complaint does not specify how much money the plaintiffs seek, but they claim to represent a class of 200,000 residents. If residents' fair market salaries were determined to be $100,000, say, the sums at issue for a single year would exceed $12 billion, and since this is an antitrust case, the damages would be automatically tripled.
"It's not obvious that it's in the interests of the plaintiffs to bankrupt every hospital in the country," Professor Priest said. "But it's going to change the nature of medical care. They are going to have to bid for the services of these medical residents, and they won't be able to work them 120 hours a week."
 

dr. freeze

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about time....bunch of overpaid ADMINISTRATORS taking advantage of free labor......

something must be done to ensure competition amongst hospitals instead of this trust which has been developed....
 

dawgball

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No expert on the subject by any means, but it sounds like if this suit is upheld, then it means higher prices for service. higher prices for service (to insurance copanies) means higher premiums for ill and injured.

All of us know that the health care administrators are not going to be taking pay-cuts anytime soon.

I always thought the residency was a time where a doctor really decided if he/she was in this for the proper reasons or for the money.:nono:

Early-career doctors DEFINITELY have it rough, but after you survive the residency years, it ain't too shabby to be a doctor. Still long hours, but the financial reward is nice.

Besides if you don't have those bad years, how are you going to become an egotistical, grumpy old doctor?:eek:
 

THE KOD

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Drfreeze

a question I have always had about doctors and interns working hours is this.
You made a referance to doctors working 100 hour work weeks. They may be there for 100 hours but no way I believe they are working all that time. Its kinda like the fire dept where they work 12 hour shifts. They arent polishing the engines all 12 hours , they are able to sleep as they are provided with nice cots. If no calls come in ,,,,,,,,sweet sleep and get a second job which most of them do.
I have to believe that its the same at the hospital. They make their rounds and if nothing is going on ....its nappy time. I dont see how a doctor could function alertly with 100 hour weeks. I have worked many 16 hour shifts and I know at the end of that I was a zombie. whats the scoop ?


Just looking for what you will respond to this . Thanks


Scott-Atlanta
 

dr. freeze

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a few words.....

most doctors could make far more money doing other things.....i could be making 6 digits right now on my way up the corporate ladder if i wanted.....instead i am busting my ass sitting in the library all day....

those 100 hour weeks are exactly that.....100 hour weeks....you learn to sleep 2 hours a night IN the hospital....

typical day: get up at 5, work til 10 -- study til 1, sleep

do this EVERY day of the week with the exception of every 3rd day when you stay up all night.

that is the life of a 3rd year medical student and a resident.

it is not a fireman's job. you work your ass off going around checking on people in a hospital.

you are exactly right on how this will increase doctor's salary. it should be increased. doctors should make hundreds of thousands. there shoudl be INCENTIVE to keep health care at a high level or you will have morons operating on you. more and more people are questioning at whether we made the right decision to be a doctor as the incentives go down. in my class already over 10 have dropped out because they have assessed that it isn't worth it to go through this crap for the slavery that you are put through. they are right and it is not because they wnat to help people any less than anyone else -- they can help people doing other things in life -- we all can. it is because it is not worth it anymore.

the problem with health care today lies in the insurance fees, administrative fees (hospitals), outrageous exploitation of the pharmaceutical companies and equipment fees. These all have their roots in one thing. Bad Justice. There shouldn't have to be millions of paperwork which gets nothing in essence accomplished other than to make sure you can defend your hospital or practice when you get sued. There should not have to be "middle men" collecting money when they also do nothing positive but harrass doctors and patients. The list goes on. And it lies in bad justice and bad law. Unfortunately the only way to turn this around is to get the lawyers involved on the other side which will just add costs to the patient.....with the amount of money the defense lawyers pour into politics and lobbying (which is directly from the patients who sue doctors) this is a self supporting cycle and costs will continue to increase.......

It sucks.
 

buddy

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Dear buddy.

You are so handsome,

brave, strong and true.

I wanna be your girlfriend,

signed,

med student sue
 

dr. freeze

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lol buddy.....thats not a bad idea.....

i have entertained the thought -- meet a girl med student....start studying late nights with her......woo her.....marry her.....drop out and become a golf course marshall.....
 

JSMOOTH

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dr. freeze said:
about time....bunch of overpaid ADMINISTRATORS taking advantage of free labor......


Yep. That quote sounds just like my company was almost 40 years ago........then the union put a stop to it!

Yeah, I know.....there's a difference in being an intern and being an auto worker, but your first post has alot of similarities as every other money grubbing company who wants more and gives less.

As for the 100 work weeks....(at least in NE Ohio) These doc's aren't working for 100 hrs per week.(zzzzzzzzz) All the hospitals within an hours drive of me, are good for only one thing in an emergency. Getting you stable. As soon as you're stable, you need to get on a chopper and go to Pittsburgh or the Cleveland Clinic. Too many horror stories!

BTW freeze,
If you could be making a 6 figure salary without all this hassle, then I commend you for pursuing this career.
 

dr. freeze

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yeah JSMOOTH....althought i am not a union person, as you know..lol....i am not a trust person either....and those trusts must be busted.....competition must exist for both employers and workers.....

i like science and even though it gets tiresome at times....its still a pretty good passion of mine and kind of keeps a guy going at times.....

those 100 hour weeks are real though.....trust me.....at a teaching hospital anyway in a big city....i am around it all the time......the med center in Houston is quite amazing -- over 20 hospitals employing about 100,000 people at the Texas Medical Center...7 or 8 schools here too -- 2 meds, dental, pharmacy, and a bunch of nursing schools......residents have to do all the sh*t work in a hospital......these old time doctors get lazy and become fat cats so naturally when they can take an administrative position and make young peons do it all they will....they make us think that it is our "boot camp"....its not healthy for patients to have people that can't function well serve them nor is it for the residents....plus i think it contributes towards a doctor's inflated ego after they finally get out of this hell.....
 

ryson

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dr. freeze said:
a few words.....

most doctors could make far more money doing other things.....i could be making 6 digits right now on my way up the corporate ladder if i wanted.....instead i am busting my ass sitting in the library all day....


Correct me if I am wrong, a hospital/doctors office etc. is a business, so you are part of the corporate ladder. In your chosen profession, this is just part of putting skin in the game, we all have to do it to succeed in our profession. Don't get me wrong I am not getting after you, if you look @ any job when you are making your bones you have to do the shit work. I wanted to pursue a medical career, but after a few conversations with experienced people I was talked out of it. I wanted to pursue that career path for the noble reason of helping people, after extensive discussions about liability, insurance companies etc., I realized that the computer industry is much more conducive to my personality. When I got out of school I took a job for peanuts, but you have to have that industry experience in order to command the higher salary. IMHO, what is really screwing the medical industry today are insurance companies...they dictate how a doctor practices medicine.

I have personal scar tissue with this subject, I have a young son who is suffering from ear infections, tubes in his ears would solve the problem. The bad thing about it is that my wife and I cannot tell when he is sick until he just collapses. I took him to a wellness appt. last week and he was just being his normal self, having a good time, laughing, playing etc. The doctor walks in says greets us all that good stuff. I told her that he had developed a small cough the last couple of days, she checks his lungs hears the cough and takes pause. Then checks his ears, you guessed it full blown ear infection. It blew her away because on the outside he seemed like a happy, bouncing little boy. My wife is a bit timid about questioning the doctor so that is why I went. I have an extensive family history of ear infections; I had them very bad, and have 3 cousins and a nephew with tubes in their ears. I ask her what is the deal, she replies that insurance company will not cover the procedure unless he has 6 ear infections in 6 mos. I asked her personal opinion and she said he really needs them, but because of the mandate on procedure that is posed by the insurance company her hands are tied. I reply so the insurance company dictates how you practice medicine? Her reply was............it's been that way for years.

I applaud you folks who are pursuing a career in the medical field, unfortunately it is a business like any other. I just hope it does not taint the reasons why you decided on this career in the first place.
 

dr. freeze

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yep.....read other post.......

the real meaning of managed care is:

a. insurance companies can't manage to care
b. hospitals can't care to manage
c. patients can't manage to get care
d. hospitals, HMO's, and pharmaceutical companies are in a manage a tois

horrible state we are in......once the middle man has taken over, this is what it has come to.......no way out of it either because too much money is thrown at politicians and the public is too stupid to be able to discern what is spin and what isn't.....america has been dumbed down and too many idiots go to the polls....they think if they hear a politician promise them things for their general demographic that that is good for them and vote for whoever promises them the most "free" stuff

climbing the corporate ladder should be what we have to do but there is no way to be able to do it against a trust which the hospitas have developed into.....there is no competition for your services....you get told where you will go spend your life after med school, told the hours you work, what you will do, and what you will make.....might as well go to work for Nike in Red China

HMO's dictate what tests can be run and what tests can't be run....as a result, more bad medicine is practiced and more malpractice suits result.....and the insurance companies are to blame.....things which could have been treated easily develop into more expensive operations and as a result HMO's actually cost themselves money in the long run....

hope your son gets healthy soon....if he has 1 ear infection the insuarance company should cover whatever needs to be done to fix it.....i would call them up and start screaming.....thats what i am going to do in the future.....lol.....
 

ryson

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We have double coverage, my wife has United and I have Blue Cross. They do everything needed for the ear infections as far as visits, meds etc. (never have had a problem), but the bottom line is he needs the tubes. Early in his life the doctor gave us this speil about doctors prescribing to many antibiotics and some viruses are ammune because of that. Well he has been on the antibiotics for a while and I brought that up. At the end of the day, the insurance companies mandate and doctors have to follow. Just a very bad situation for all, I really feel for the folks who have no coverage at all.

I do have one question, what type of health coverage do doctors have? I have always been curious, can you treat yourself?
 
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edludes

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Dr Freeze-Thank you.The idea of a man with your special personality liabilities zooming up the "corporate ladder" was just the belly laugh I need after tough day!The imagination of a youthful egomaniac is an aaaaamazingly naive thing.If your skills are remotely comensurate with your ego,Doctoring is most assuredly the right job for you.
 

PLISKIN615

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Dr Freeze: Arguments can be for all parties concerned. Health Care costs ARE rising at an alarming rate. Everyone involved in this FREE MARKET system is increasing the size of the pie and vying for a bigger piece. Lets throw the Med Students and the Lawyers, always the Lawyers, into the feeding frenzy. Gimmie more and Gimmie it now. You are in a brutal training and weeding-out process that ultimately and ostensibly yields the best of the best. I'm sure it sucks to be a Resident and at the mercy of the powers that control You're every waking moment. You have my utmost respect but are you in it for the $ or to serve Humanity? In the end, and after Your Residency, and 10,000th post at Madjacks (how do you find the time), please forgo a couple hundred-thuosand dollars (feel free to keep the other couple hundred thou.) to those poor Residents paying thier significant dues. Be thankful the Good Lord gave you the ability to embark on such a path and PLEASE QUIT BEING SO BITTER. YOU've got it all, so stop the WHINING. :violin:
 

dr. freeze

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$$ needs to be there or you will not get good doctors.....every job should be there to serve other people......if i am flipping burgers at McDonalds i should be there because i want to earn money and serving people......

i am not bitter.....i fight for what is right and in a free market economy trusts are not right......and i think everyone should fight for what is right -- and when some people are taking advantage of others instead of caving in to them and kissing their ass you should stand up to the....and when patients are fighting disease i will fight WITH them.....i would want a doctor with a little courage so i am going to be one...

about making posts -- if you had to sit your ass in a library for 10 months straight you would probabyl take a study break every hour or so and if you liked sports you would probably go to a sports website

edludes your comments as usual don't even qualify a response....you don't know me and nor do you know how i deal with people who aren't incompetent

you can be in it for the $$ and also for the people.....for some reason people think it is one or the other but in a positive sum game -- which is why free market economics works .....$$ = serving people.....and if there is no $$, which there is becoming less of for doctors, you will have no doctors -- which is where we are heading....
 

Neemer

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most doctors could make far more money doing other things.....i could be making 6 digits right now on my way up the corporate ladder if i wanted.....instead i am busting my ass sitting in the library all day....

I'm trying to decipher whether this is a case of insane stupidity OR you've been sippin' a few too many malt ducks this afternoon

:D :D

Being in the healthcare field for nearly nine years now, I've learned one very important thing: It's called the GOLDEN RULE; those who own the gold make the rules, and in the healthcare industry it's the INSURANCE COMPANIES. Not only do these people tell doctors how to practice, they also tell pharmacies what to dispense to particular individuals.

In the state of Kentucky, you have about 5-7 major players that write health insurance policies. Most of these ins. companies in regards to the dispensing of medications, have a formulary and non-formulary list of drugs that they provide their patients with on a semi-annual basis. For those that are not very familiar with the process, it basically means what drugs your insurance company will pay for and what drugs they will not pay for. So, in reality, it's not your doctor prescribing you medication, but rather your insurance company. I can't tell you the amount of times we have to call the doctor's office to try and get the prescribing physician to change a particular drug b/c this particular person's insurance will not pay for it. You would think that the decision by the insurance company to cover and not cover particular drugs would be based mainly on the cost of the medication.

I did a little investigating and soon realized that it has nothing to do with costs, but has everything to do with who the particular ins. companies are in bed with and what drug manf's are giving the biggest rebates and kickbacks to the insurance companies.
 

nighthorse

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Ryson, have you thought about just getting the tubes anyway? Might require some sacrifices, but if that's what your boy needs, isn't it worth it? (I have no idea how much this costs, if it costs $100,000.00 I'm being an insensitive jerk, if it costs a couple of thousand, that's another story).

Freeze - I think the residence system is really stupid. I watched those docu shows on ABC last summer (Johns Hopkins?). Dumb way to weed people out. I don't want someone who's been awake 20 hours straight trying to figure out what's wrong with me. It's an upper class form of hazing. As someone who loves sleep, I sympathize. But, this is still a somewhat free market. You and everyone else who's in the business made the choice by your own free will knowing how much it was going to suck. As long as the profession keeps getting people to join the medical fraternity, there's no supply/demand reason for things to change.

Maybe we'll have to suffer some shortages before those in power will be willing to change.

P.S. golf course Marshall, wouldn't that be great?

Edludes - "The idea of a man with your special personality liabilities" and "The imagination of a youthful egomaniac is an aaaaamazingly naive thing." Agree or disagree, those are well written, funny lines. You're bit too cold, cynical and crumudgeony for my tastes most of the time. But i like reading your posts anyway.


JSMOOTH - Unions? If the medical profession goes union, a lot of us will end with Japanese doctors!!! (that's a joke, probably hard to tell) In a way, it isn't...we're getting a lot of doctors from Asia.
 

dr. freeze

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will have to suffer shortages AND incompetent doctors......the latter will become before the former......then there will be more screwups, more lawsuits, and the problems compound......that is why it is essential to keep/get back the $$ and healthy work conditions for doctors or the best and brightest will no longer pursue a career in the field
 
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