O's 95% illusion-WSJ

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,514
211
63
Bowling Green Ky
Could have put this under magic acts but deserves thead of its own---
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122385651698727257.html

REVIEW & OUTLOOK OCTOBER 13, 2008 Obama's 95% Illusion
It depends on what the meaning of 'tax cut' is.Article

One of Barack Obama's most potent campaign claims is that he'll cut taxes for no less than 95% of "working families." He's even promising to cut taxes enough that the government's tax share of GDP will be no more than 18.2% -- which is lower than it is today.


It's a clever pitch, because it lets him pose as a middle-class tax cutter while disguising that he's also proposing one of the largest tax increases ever on the other 5%. But how does he conjure this miracle, especially since more than a third of all Americans already pay no income taxes at all? There are several sleights of hand, but the most creative is to redefine the meaning of "tax cut."
For the Obama Democrats, a tax cut is no longer letting you keep more of what you earn. In their lexicon, a tax cut includes tens of billions of dollars in government handouts that are disguised by the phrase "tax credit." Mr. Obama is proposing to create or expand no fewer than seven such credits for individuals:
- A $500 tax credit ($1,000 a couple) to "make work pay" that phases out at income of $75,000 for individuals and $150,000 per couple.

- A $4,000 tax credit for college tuition.

- A 10% mortgage interest tax credit (on top of the existing mortgage interest deduction and other housing subsidies).

- A "savings" tax credit of 50% up to $1,000.

- An expansion of the earned-income tax credit that would allow single workers to receive as much as $555 a year, up from $175 now, and give these workers up to $1,110 if they are paying child support.

- A child care credit of 50% up to $6,000 of expenses a year.

- A "clean car" tax credit of up to $7,000 on the purchase of certain vehicles.

Here's the political catch. All but the clean car credit would be "refundable," which is Washington-speak for the fact that you can receive these checks even if you have no income-tax liability. In other words, they are an income transfer -- a federal check -- from taxpayers to nontaxpayers. Once upon a time we called this "welfare," or in George McGovern's 1972 campaign a "Demogrant." Mr. Obama's genius is to call it a tax cut.
The Tax Foundation estimates that under the Obama plan 63 million Americans, or 44% of all tax filers, would have no income tax liability and most of those would get a check from the IRS each year. The Heritage Foundation's Center for Data Analysis estimates that by 2011, under the Obama plan, an additional 10 million filers would pay zero taxes while cashing checks from the IRS.

The total annual expenditures on refundable "tax credits" would rise over the next 10 years by $647 billion to $1.054 trillion, according to the Tax Policy Center. This means that the tax-credit welfare state would soon cost four times actual cash welfare. By redefining such income payments as "tax credits," the Obama campaign also redefines them away as a tax share of GDP. Presto, the federal tax burden looks much smaller than it really is.

The political left defends "refundability" on grounds that these payments help to offset the payroll tax. And that was at least plausible when the only major refundable credit was the earned-income tax credit. Taken together, however, these tax credit payments would exceed payroll levies for most low-income workers.

It is also true that John McCain proposes a refundable tax credit -- his $5,000 to help individuals buy health insurance. We've written before that we prefer a tax deduction for individual health care, rather than a credit. But the big difference with Mr. Obama is that Mr. McCain's proposal replaces the tax subsidy for employer-sponsored health insurance that individuals don't now receive if they buy on their own. It merely changes the nature of the tax subsidy; it doesn't create a new one.

There's another catch: Because Mr. Obama's tax credits are phased out as incomes rise, they impose a huge "marginal" tax rate increase on low-income workers. The marginal tax rate refers to the rate on the next dollar of income earned. As the nearby chart illustrates, the marginal rate for millions of low- and middle-income workers would spike as they earn more income.

Some families with an income of $40,000 could lose up to 40 cents in vanishing credits for every additional dollar earned from working overtime or taking a new job. As public policy, this is contradictory. The tax credits are sold in the name of "making work pay," but in practice they can be a disincentive to working harder, especially if you're a lower-income couple getting raises of $1,000 or $2,000 a year. One mystery -- among many -- of the McCain campaign is why it has allowed Mr. Obama's 95% illusion to go unanswered.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,514
211
63
Bowling Green Ky
Searching for Obama's 95 Percent
Posted by Philip Klein on 10.16.08 @ 8:23AM

HEMPSTEAD. N.Y. -- "We are going to cut taxes for 95 percent of Americans," Barack Obama's campaign manager, David Plouffe, said in the spin room here at Hofstra University following the final debate of the 2008 presidential election.

Plouffe was repeating one of the boldest claims made by the Obama campaign. It's a claim that the Wall Street Journal editorial board dubbed "Obama's 95% Illusion," noting that more than a third of Americans don't pay any income taxes, and that what Obama's plan does do is offer a raft of subsidies and government payments to individuals and families that he redefines as "tax cuts." His proposal looks more like a redistribution scheme than an honest effort to reduce taxes -- as he revealed on Monday when he told a now famous Ohio plumber that his plan aimed to "spread the wealth around."

So when Plouffe reiterated the 95 percent claim, I asked him a simple question aimed at clarifying whether Obama's tax plan was about cutting rates, or merely handing out government checks. "What rates would actually go down"? I asked.

"Middle class people are going to see, systemically, their taxes reduced, and small businesses," Plouffe responded.

"But what rate would go down for lower-income Americans?" I persisted, seeking more information.

"We'll have to get you the exact details on that," Obama's campaign manager told me.

I followed up, recapping the claim he had just made moments ago: "Well, you said that there's going to be a tax cut on 95 percent, so what rate would go down?"

He replied, "I'll have to get you the exact rate differential."

Given that he wasn't clear on the actual rate changes involved, I asked, "but which type of tax would go down?"

He insisted that under Obama's plan, income taxes would be lower, as well as capital gains taxes on start up businesses and small entrepreneurs (though the capital gains tax would otherwise increase).



SHORTLY AFTER my exchange with Plouffe, I was listening to David Axelrod, Obama's senior strategist, and I decided to put the question to him slightly differently: "Let's say you're making $50,000 a year," I posited. "What taxes would you see go lower under the Obama plan?"

Axelrod replied, "You would get a $500 cut in your taxes. If you're a couple, $1,000."

I queried as to whether that money would come in the form of a check, or a lower rate. "You would see a reduction in your taxes, in the taxes that you pay," he insisted. After further questioning, he added, "The mechanism for it has to do with deferring part of the withholding taxes, but you should talk to our budget folks on that."

Later in the evening, Brian Deese, an Obama economics adviser, emailed me the following information, at Plouffe's request:

OVERALL IMPACT OF OBAMA TAX PLAN:

- The Obama plan would reduce income tax rates for a typical family of four the lowest level in more than 50 years (4.32%). [Tax Policy Center]

- Obama's plan will cut taxes as a share of the economy to 18.2% -- below the level that prevailed under Ronald Reagan. [Tax Policy Center 9/12/08]

I could not find a reference to the first statistic after viewing the study cited by Deese. In its analysis, the Tax Policy Center (a venture of the left-leaning Brookings Institution and Urban Institute), sides with the Obama campaign by categorizing as "tax cuts" government payments such as the $1,000 to couples, $4,000 for college tuition, and 10% payment to offset mortgage interest expenses. But the study does not repeat the Obama campaign's 95 percent claim. (In a late night email, I raised these points with Deese, and also asked him to explain the criteria under which the campaign arrived at the 95 percent number, but did not hear back as of this writing.)

In fairness, politicians long ago began to use the tax code as a tool for crafting social policy rather than merely as a way to raise revenue. Republicans and Democrats alike have abused terms such as "tax credit" and "tax rebate" to make their policy goals more palatable. But Obama is getting away with defining tax cuts so broadly, that future candidates will simply claim any form of increased government spending as a tax cut. Under Obama's logic, higher food stamp allowances and expanded state funding of the arts could be dubbed "food tax credit" and "arts tax credit" respectively, and also qualify.

If Barack Obama can effectively claim that his plan cuts taxes on 95 percent of Americans, then the term "tax cut" has no meaning
 

flapjack

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 13, 2004
1,244
7
0
The other side is that not only will all of these people be getting checks, but if capital gains are going to increase from 15% to 28%, don't more than 5% of the population own assests like stocks or own homes? How is this not considered a tax increase? If you take out all of the people who don't pay taxes in the first place and all of the people who don't own any assets, what percentage of that 95% is left? Not to mention that for the middle class, those Obama income tax cuts only add up to maybe $20-$70 a month. Its those that do not pay taxes in the first place that get the bigger checks.

So, to fund hand-outs to those not paying taxes and a few bucks a month to the middle class, we should:

1) Insure that making money through personal investments is really, really hard through by doubling capital gains tax.
2) Small business get hosed with increased taxes.
3) Larger business get murdered.
4) #2 and #3 may not seem so bad to the average person at first glance. But they insure that those same middle class and lower class people will see fewer job opportunites and higher prices at the market. Businesses will react rationally and in their own best interest and survival by: Moving jobs overseas (if they can). Increasing retail prices to pass on the costs of the higher taxes. And, above all, avoid adding new jobs and cut jobs where they can.

Makes sense to me, where do I get one of those Obama bumper stickers?
 

djv

Registered User
Forum Member
Nov 4, 2000
13,817
17
0
Make it simple. No one I see, new number is rounded under $252000 gets taxes raised. And small business profits over 250000. Takes a lot of luck for small business to get those profits. And 95.2% of the folks get a break. Rich need not apply. They will do OK anyway.
 

flapjack

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 13, 2004
1,244
7
0
Make it simple. No one I see, new number is rounded under $252000 gets taxes raised. And small business profits over 250000. Takes a lot of luck for small business to get those profits. And 95.2% of the folks get a break. Rich need not apply. They will do OK anyway.

Making it simple is what Obama is banking on. No need to look at the repercusions of a socialized economy or digging into what his policies really mean. He's counting on the ignorant to just take his blanket statements as fact.

As for it taking "a lot of luck" for businesses to make over 250K, I think most business owners would replace "luck" with "hard work" in that statement.
 

Jabberwocky

Registered User
Forum Member
Mar 3, 2006
3,491
29
0
Jacksonville, FL
Making it simple is what Obama is banking on. No need to look at the repercusions of a socialized economy or digging into what his policies really mean. He's counting on the ignorant to just take his blanket statements as fact.

As for it taking "a lot of luck" for businesses to make over 250K, I think most business owners would replace "luck" with "hard work" in that statement.

McCain's promise is to cut taxes for everyone. Don't worry about the 11.4 trillion dollar debt. McCain is currently supporting an additional 300 billion dollar bailout of mortgage backers to go along with the 700 billion dollar bailout that essentially nationalizes the banking industry. But what those on the "right" surmise is that OBama will turn America into a socialist state. Baffling.
 
Last edited:

Roger Baltrey

Registered User
Forum Member
Sep 13, 2005
2,896
24
38
How can either of these clowns lower taxes when we are running the highest deficit in the history of the earth. Bush's tax cuts were a historic flop and exacerbated by running an unnecessary $150B a year war he had no intention to pay for. I would like to hear one of these guys talk about fiscal sanity .
 

Jabberwocky

Registered User
Forum Member
Mar 3, 2006
3,491
29
0
Jacksonville, FL
How can either of these clowns lower taxes when we are running the highest deficit in the history of the earth. Bush's tax cuts were a historic flop and exacerbated by running an unnecessary $150B a year war he had no intention to pay for. I would like to hear one of these guys talk about fiscal sanity .

I don't know that the Bush tax cuts is what has done the damage so much as his doubling the size of government and spending like a drunken sailor.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,514
211
63
Bowling Green Ky
How can either of these clowns lower taxes when we are running the highest deficit in the history of the earth. Bush's tax cuts were a historic flop and exacerbated by running an unnecessary $150B a year war he had no intention to pay for. I would like to hear one of these guys talk about fiscal sanity .

You must have just took liberals at their word when they told you that-- maybe next time check facts instead of liberal blogs--and you'll find which years produced largest tax revenues in history--DUH

Now convince us how lower taxes and more tax revenue is bad.

Yep see ya around:rolleyes:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

DJV ow can you read articles and still say 95% are getting tax break--what part of articles do you fail to comprehend.
:shrug:
 

flapjack

Registered User
Forum Member
Aug 13, 2004
1,244
7
0
McCain's promise is to cut taxes for everyone. Don't worry about the 11.4 trillion dollar debt. McCain is currently supporting an additional 300 billion dollar bailout of mortgage backers to go along with the 700 billion dollar bailout that essentially nationalizes the banking industry. But what those on the "right" surmise is that OBama will turn America into a socialist state. Baffling.


I dont agree with McCain's 300 billion dollar bailout at all. I agree both these guys needs to cut spending big time. But, Obama is proposing much more spending than McCain. What they need, is McCain's tax plan and someone else's budget. At least McCain is half right on the spending and taxing. Obama is wrong on both sides. If Obama's tax increases stall/destroy business, our deficit will grow even with increased taxes. We'll be left with higher taxes, a bad economy and a greater deficit. What will pay off the deficit is a strong pro-business economy and cutting government spending, plain and simple.
 

BobbyBlueChip

Trustee
Forum Member
Dec 27, 2000
20,783
357
83
53
Belly of the Beast
You must have just took liberals at their word when they told you that-- maybe next time check facts instead of liberal blogs--and you'll find which years produced largest tax revenues in history--DUH

Now convince us how lower taxes and more tax revenue is bad.

Yep see ya around:rolleyes:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

DJV ow can you read articles and still say 95% are getting tax break--what part of articles do you fail to comprehend.
:shrug:

You increase taxes revenues by increasing spending - duh

No increase in spending and the tax cut would have cut tax revenues. I've walked you through this in the past, but you've ignored it
 

hedgehog

Registered
Forum Member
Oct 30, 2003
32,884
693
113
50
TX
Make it simple. No one I see, new number is rounded under $252000 gets taxes raised. And small business profits over 250000. Takes a lot of luck for small business to get those profits. And 95.2% of the folks get a break. Rich need not apply. They will do OK anyway.

redistribution of wealth is communism.

The company I work for makes way more than 250K/year 100 employees. I am sure the owner I work for will be paying more taxes and cut my bonus and raises to pay for it, it is a trickle down effect. He will probably get rid of some workers so he can make profit if Obama gets elected. I do know several people who do make 250K/yr and I do not consider them rich, just very successful. The only people who gain from communism are the uneducated people, who could have gone to college like me and made better for themselves, instead of living off the tit of the government.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,514
211
63
Bowling Green Ky
You increase taxes revenues by increasing spending - duh

No increase in spending and the tax cut would have cut tax revenues. I've walked you through this in the past, but you've ignored it

--and what lead to increase in spending??

Maybe folks and corps had more money to spend you think--DUH


The rate of business capital investment underwent a U-turn ? from negative business investment spending in the two years before the tax cut to an average annual increase of more than 10 percent in the three succeeding years.

In the four years since the cut, federal revenues increased $740 billion and revenues from the capital gains tax nearly doubled to $110 billion.

There was a sizable ?unlocking effect? from the lower tax rate, meaning that investors voluntarily sold stock and other assets at a much higher volume once the tax rate was reduced, nearly doubling the amount of capital gains realized.

--however always appreciate those memebers of the party that advocate sharing the wealth/income redistribution-- walking us through the tax system ;)

I'll look forward to your input on the economics 101 thread--
http://www.madjacksports.com/forum/showthread.php?t=341875
 
Last edited:

BobbyBlueChip

Trustee
Forum Member
Dec 27, 2000
20,783
357
83
53
Belly of the Beast
I'm talking about the government spending - Duh

More gov't spending - goes to business/individuals - goes into the public's revenue - higher tax rates.

It shouldn't be that complicated
 

DOGS THAT BARK

Registered User
Forum Member
Jul 13, 1999
19,514
211
63
Bowling Green Ky
I'm talking about the government spending - Duh

More gov't spending - goes to business/individuals - goes into the public's revenue - higher tax rates.

It shouldn't be that complicated

I see so by your theory the more O and libs can spend on socialistic programs for those that pay no taxes--and paid by those that do--it will not only benefit both individuals and business but produce greater tax revenue.

Hmm explain to me how redistributing wealth to your base that pay no taxes will increase tax revenue?
 
Bet on MyBookie
Top