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DOGS THAT BARK

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Thank you govenors/congressmen on attempt at delivering on promises--

Only been 3 months since "the people" voted in biggest party replacement since 1938--

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The Democratic Debacle -- and What It Means

<BUTTON class=ws title="" type=submit></BUTTON><BUTTON class=vspib type=submit></BUTTON>
Nov 3, 2010 ... With the Democrats suffering the worst off-year drubbing since (yikes!) 1938, in 2012 Barack Obama will face an electorate that has already made a sharp ... 2010 Elections. House Balance of Power. 193. Democratic Seats ...
<CITE>www.politicsdaily.com/2010/.../the-democratic-debacle-and-what-it-means/</CITE> -

==============================


--those voted in have wasted no time in attacking big gov/spending/deficits--

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/25/governors.political.power/index.html

Ambitious governors shift political power, focus to states

<!--endclickprintinclude--><!--startclickprintexclude-->By Peter Hamby, CNN political producer<SCRIPT type=text/javascript>cnnAuthor = "By Peter Hamby, CNN political producer ";</SCRIPT>
<SCRIPT type=text/javascript>if(location.hostname.indexOf( 'edition.' ) > -1) {document.write('February 25, 2011 -- Updated 1829 GMT (0229 HKT)');} else {document.write('February 25, 2011 1:29 p.m. EST');}</SCRIPT>February 25, 2011 1:29 p.m. EST

Washington (CNN) -- The battle over union rights in Wisconsin, Ohio and Indiana has dramatically shifted the budget debate from Capitol Hill to the states, almost overshadowing the threat of a government shutdown in Washington next week--

--In Ohio, thousands of labor-backed demonstrators have descended on Columbus to protest another bill curtailing union rights, this one backed by another new GOP governor, John Kasich

-- Florida, Gov. Rick Scott rejected $2.4 billion in federal funding last week for a high-speed rail project between Tampa and Orlando, arguing that the state could not afford the long-term maintenance costs-

--Then there is New Jersey. Gov. Chris Christie's blunt style and camera-ready confrontations with unionized teachers have made him a media darling and GOP celebrity.

--Even in South Carolina, a "right to work" state where union membership is not necessarily required to get most jobs, Gov. Nikki Haley has clashed with organized labor, though not public employee unions.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Found this article interesting also --not all teachers think alike--

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/260659/teachers-and-others-victor-davis-hanson

Victor Davis Hanson
February 25, 2011 4:00 A.M.
On Teachers and Others
In judging teachers? claims, we might compare their lives with the lives of, say, farmers or welders or interstate truckers.


spacer.gif


So far the angry teachers of Wisconsin have not yet won over the public. They have not convinced the majority that, in an age of staggering budget deficits, they ? or, indeed, public employees in general ? must as a veritable birthright enjoy salary, benefits, and pensions on average far more generous than those of their private-sector counterparts, who make up the majority of taxpayers.

Teachers are right that the crisis transcends compensation. Yet why, others might ask, would teachers? unions oppose merit pay? Why should someone who did not join the union still have to pay its dues? Why should the state have to collect the dues from employee paychecks on behalf of the union? Moreover, when these questions are posed amid a landscape of teachers skipping classes to protest, urging students to join them, and soliciting fraudulent doctors? notes to cover their cancellations of classes ? while their supporters in the legislature hide out to prevent a quorum and thereby subvert the democratic process reaffirmed last November ? the public becomes further estranged from their cause.




--much more on issue in link
 

WhatsHisNuts

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Wayne: What is the average teacher's salary?

I'm not in favor of the teacher's being unionized, but I also don't believe they are overcompensated. We should make teaching a competitive profession where the best are compensated better than those that are mere baby-sitters.
 

Cie

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Wayne: What is the average teacher's salary?

I'm not in favor of the teacher's being unionized, but I also don't believe they are overcompensated. We should make teaching a competitive profession where the best are compensated better than those that are mere baby-sitters.

+1
 

Duff Miver

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Wayne: What is the average teacher's salary?

I'm not in favor of the teacher's being unionized, but I also don't believe they are overcompensated. We should make teaching a competitive profession where the best are compensated better than those that are mere baby-sitters.


State Starting Salary Average Salary 10-year increase Salary Comfort Index
Alabama $31,368 $40,347 28.9% 13
Alaska $38,657 $53,553 7.9% 30
Arizona $30,404 $44,672 37.5% 35
Arkansas $28,784 $42,768 44.8% 11
California $35,760 $59,825 41.6% 44
Colorado $35,086 $44,439 25.7% 12
Connecticut $39,259 $59,304 18.0% 22
Delaware $35,854 $54,264 33.9% 2
Florida $33,427 $43,302 29.9% 26
Georgia $34,442 $48,300 42.1% 3
Hawaii $35,816 $49,292 37.7% 50
Idaho $27,500 $41,150 33.2% 33
Illinois $37,500 $58,686 43.4% 1
Indiana $30,844 $47,255 25.4% 8
Iowa $27,284 $41,083 26.9% 31
Kansas $27,840 $41,467 28.1% 21
Kentucky $30,619 $42,592 28.8% 15
Louisiana $31,298 $40,029 45.4% 20
Maine $26,643 $40,737 23.9% 47
Maryland $37,125 $54,333 32.0% 37
Massachusetts $35,421 $56,369 35.0% 34
Michigan $35,557 $54,739 16.9% 4
Minnesota $31,532 $48,489 31.3% 10
Mississippi $28,200 $40,576 46.5% 19
Missouri $29,281 $40,462 25.2% 16
Montana $25,318 $39,832 35.6% 46
Nebraska $29,303 $40,382 28.2% 17
Nevada $27,957 $44,426 22.8% 45
New Hampshire $28,279 $45,263 26.5% 48
New Jersey $38,408 $58,156 19.3% 36
New Mexico $33,730 $41,637 43.2% 29
New York $37,321 $57,354 19.2% 38
North Carolina $27,944 $43,922 44.4% 23
North Dakota $24,872 $37,764 40.0% 43
Ohio $33,671 $50,314 33.0% 6
Oklahoma $29,174 $38,772 36.5% 18
Oregon $33,699 $50,044 26.0% 14
Pennsylvania $34,976 $54,027 17.2% 5
Rhode Island $33,815 $54,730 31.0% 42
South Carolina $28,568 $43,011 36.0% 24
South Dakota $26,111 $34,709 31.7% 41
Tennessee $32,369 $42,537 28.4% 9
Texas $33,775 $41,744 32.9% 7
Utah $26,521 $40,007 30.8% 39
Vermont $26,461 $46,622 28.5% 49
Virginia $33,200 $43,823 26.0% 25
Washington $30,974 $46,326 22.4% 32
West Virginia $26,704 $38,284 19.1% 40
Wisconsin $25,222 $46,390 21.5% 28
Wyoming $31,481 $43,255 37.0% 27
 

UGA12

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Wayne: What is the average teacher's salary?

I'm not in favor of the teacher's being unionized, but I also don't believe they are overcompensated. We should make teaching a competitive profession where the best are compensated better than those that are mere baby-sitters.

The problem you run into is that it is all subjective. How do you determine who is a good teacher and who needs do move on? Students vary per class so test scores/pass rates are out. Subjects vary in difficulty so pass rates/test scores take another hit. District lines usually follow the socio-economics of the area so school-to-school comparisons are not an accurate indicator. Each state dictates their graduation requirments so state-to-state numbers can be skewd. Finally, the bottom line is that us teachers have become a slave to NCLB. Success of students and what is best for their futures has been replaced by does your school reach AYP(Annual Yearly Progress). A system that in itself is designed for everyone to eventually fail. There are awful teachers out there no doubt, but IMO as long as the current system of education remains "good teachers" will not be enough.
 
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Chadman

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The problem you run into is that it is all subjective. How do you determine who is a good teacher and who needs do move on? Students vary per class so test scores/pass rates are out. Subjects vary in difficulty so pass rates/test scores take another hit. District lines usually follow the socio-economics of the area so school-to-school comparisons are not an accurate indicator. Each state dictates their graduation requirments so state-to-state numbers can be skewd. Finally, the bottom line is that us teachers have become a slave to NCLB. Success of students and what is best for their futures has been replaced by does your school reach AYP(Annual Yearly Progress). A system that in itself is designed for everyone to eventually fail. There are awful teachers out there no doubt, but IMO as long as the current system of education remains "good teachers" will not be enough.

Great points, UGA. The simple fact is - in my opinion - that many people don't truly care about any of what you talk about. They don't bother thinking about what is going on with schools, with their children, etc. They look at the grades, see if there are any low ones, and move on. I'm always struck by how few parents are at parent/student/teacher conferences, let alone students. The teachers are all there, seem very willing (not all, but the large majority) to talk to anyone who wants to about the progress or lack thereof of the students. And I've talked to many teachers who are frustrated with their hands being tied on the NCLB act - and what some states have done to modify curriculum to dumb it down so their students can simply score higher - with no concern about what they are learning, just how they score on a couple of measured subjects. ALL, to make sure they receive funding for their schools - probably in large part because local citizens fight having to pay a bit more to fund their local schools.

SO many people have no idea about any of this. They simply see an upcoming tax levy or increase to fund their schools, have no idea how their responsibility compares to other areas, nor how their students are being taught or measured, and say I'm voting no, because I hate taxes, and I want the government to stay out of my business. And many of these people have children in these schools.

Last year I was on a committee to try to get a tax levy passed for schools in our town. The tax burden on citizens in our town was incredibly embarrassing when compared to other cities around us of comparative size, or any size. And so many people argued against it, for so many reasons that had nothing to do with educating children and how they were learning. Most of it dealt with keeping more of their own money, and teachers have it great and they don't do a good job now. Blanket commentary, complete lack of knowledge on the subject.

Not true in every area, I know. But certainly true in mine, and I know in many other areas, as well.
 

UGA12

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Great points, UGA. The simple fact is - in my opinion - that many people don't truly care about any of what you talk about. They don't bother thinking about what is going on with schools, with their children, etc. They look at the grades, see if there are any low ones, and move on. I'm always struck by how few parents are at parent/student/teacher conferences, let alone students. The teachers are all there, seem very willing (not all, but the large majority) to talk to anyone who wants to about the progress or lack thereof of the students. And I've talked to many teachers who are frustrated with their hands being tied on the NCLB act - and what some states have done to modify curriculum to dumb it down so their students can simply score higher - with no concern about what they are learning, just how they score on a couple of measured subjects. ALL, to make sure they receive funding for their schools - probably in large part because local citizens fight having to pay a bit more to fund their local schools.

SO many people have no idea about any of this. They simply see an upcoming tax levy or increase to fund their schools, have no idea how their responsibility compares to other areas, nor how their students are being taught or measured, and say I'm voting no, because I hate taxes, and I want the government to stay out of my business. And many of these people have children in these schools.

Last year I was on a committee to try to get a tax levy passed for schools in our town. The tax burden on citizens in our town was incredibly embarrassing when compared to other cities around us of comparative size, or any size. And so many people argued against it, for so many reasons that had nothing to do with educating children and how they were learning. Most of it dealt with keeping more of their own money, and teachers have it great and they don't do a good job now. Blanket commentary, complete lack of knowledge on the subject.

Not true in every area, I know. But certainly true in mine, and I know in many other areas, as well.

I agree, and we have run into the same thing here multiple times in the past few years with S.P.L.O.S.T. votes. Unless people have been on the inside it is very difficult to see the real trouble our educaion system is in. I have no doubt if you go to a high achieving school you would walk away thinking things are great, but those schools and their clientele are the exception and not the norm. Throwing money at the problem has been a losing proposition as well. Paying premiums for better teachers/administrators has had limited success as well in the "worst" areas. They showed on the news the other day that in the counties surrounding atlanta the principals make an average of $60 per student at their school. In APS (atlanta public school) principals make $225 per student:scared
 

WhatsHisNuts

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Guys: There is a better way. Our country figured out how to put a man on the moon, I'm sure we have a couple economists that can devise a plan to measure teacher performance.
 

Chadman

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I'm CONVINCED there is a better way that No Child Left Behind. But, it sounds great on the surface, and that is where many Americans prefer to reside on this issue. I do think in some ways that teacher unions and teachers in general are wrong to rise up against measuring performance. I for one welcome it now, but I'm sure that I will get more reserved about that moving forward. The thing I can see in worrying about it as a teacher is having my future in the hands of other people and how they measure my performance when not being around to judge me 99% of the time - I think that's a real problem. Most of the judging goes on based on grades and "standardized" tests - which are a misnomer in many respects. Teaching students cannot simply be based on some hypothetical general standard - each individual has different skills and abilities, they learn differently, and have a different support system around them. They certainly have different motivations. They certainly have different tools and influences. It's the role of the teacher to try to reach each student as best they can. Some care, some definitely don't. But I personally do not know many that don't - that really don't give a shit. Because the majority of those that go into teaching do it for good reason, IMO, and it's far less about making money and moving up the societal chain than it is working with others and caring about people (students).
 

UGA12

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Guys: There is a better way. Our country figured out how to put a man on the moon, I'm sure we have a couple economists that can devise a plan to measure teacher performance.

We put a man on the moon through grit, determination and a willingness to do whatever it took to remain the leader of the free world. Those beliefs run contrary to America today. We now live in an age of entitlement where we ask more of our teachers while asking less of our parents and students. I have no doubt that we can create a high paying position for an "expert" to devise an algorithm to measure what a "good teacher" is, but I will respectfully disagree after 10 years in the classroom that an algorithm is going to fix the problems that education faces today.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Guys: There is a better way. Our country figured out how to put a man on the moon, I'm sure we have a couple economists that can devise a plan to measure teacher performance.

Garry I had much longer answer when at work earlier but lost in when internet shut down inadvertently.

Issue isn't as much teachers a gov workers/unions in general.

Something about forced membership-forced dues--forced contributions to political parties ETC --doesn't sit well with me.

Public servants with optoion to strike doesn't either--If they don't like their job they can do what others have to do--look for another.

Another pet peeve directly related to teachers and glad to have Chad in on this--

He can bust his butt be best he can be--kids love him--but if there is cut back--he goes before the deadbeats that are worthless. Not fair to Chad-the kids-or the tax payer.

Despite money they've thrown at education in last decade--there has been little if any improvement.
 

Chadman

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Something about forced membership-forced dues--forced contributions to political parties ETC --doesn't sit well with me

You have a problem with forced contributions to political parties by unions, but I don't remember you having an issue with corporations spending their money to fund whatever political party they see fit (the people who control the money in the corporation). Sometimes the spend money on both parties, and I've even seen corporations spending money on BOTH candidates in the same election. The workers have NO choice about how much of the money goes where, and if this money really benefits them, how, and why.

I just don't get it, except that the union money goes more often to the party you don't support - that much I do understand. The other certainly doesn't bother you as much, for obvious reasons.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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You have a problem with forced contributions to political parties by unions, but I don't remember you having an issue with corporations spending their money to fund whatever political party they see fit (the people who control the money in the corporation). Sometimes the spend money on both parties, and I've even seen corporations spending money on BOTH candidates in the same election. The workers have NO choice about how much of the money goes where, and if this money really benefits them, how, and why.

I just don't get it, except that the union money goes more often to the party you don't support - that much I do understand. The other certainly doesn't bother you as much, for obvious reasons.

Do some research on diff between private sector and gov (a little help below)--and who funds each.
No one forces you to contribute to any corp yet--as taxpayer we are forced to fund unions/dem party with our tax dollars--

a few more notes on subject--

You might also note on socialist aspect how certain individuals on this forum are for every tit the gov provides and want those productive on their own to carry their ass via taxes--believe O calls that--redistribution of wealth.

Wisonsin tax payers should be the ones protesting--their teachers/system rank --DEAD LAST" in the U.S. in graduating blacks--less than 50%.:facepalm:



Public Unions & the Socialist Utopia
- Robert Tracinski, TIA Daily

Unionized public-sector employment is the distilled essence of the left's moral ideal. No one has to worry about making a profit. Generous health-care and retirement benefits are provided to everyone by the government.
Comfortable pay is mandated by legislative fiat. The work rules are militantly egalitarian: pay, promotion, and job security are almost totally independent of actual job performance. And because everyone works for the government, they never have to worry that their employer will go out of business.

In short, public employment is an idealized socialist economy in miniature, including its political aspect: the grateful recipients of government largesse provide money and organizational support to re-elect the politicians who shower them with all of these benefits.


Dems' Cozy Deal w/Public Unions
- Katherine Kersten, Minneapolis


Public-union supporters would have us believe that government employees' right to bargain collectively was handed down to Moses on Mount Sinai. In fact, these unions are of relatively recent vintage, and some states don't allow them.

"The founders of the labor movement viewed unions as a vehicle to get workers more of the profits they help create," explained labor expert James Sherk of the Heritage Foundation in the New York Times.

"Government workers, however, don't generate profits. They merely negotiate for more tax money. When government unions strike, they strike against taxpayers.'"

So why did public unions catch on, then grow exponentially in the 1960s?

Because union leaders and Democratic politicians, like New York City's Mayor Robert Wagner, figured out they could benefit big-time from scratching one another's backs.

They could guarantee full campaign coffers for Democratic candidates while arming public employees with a power to dictate their own wages and benefits that private-sector unionists could only dream about.

Here's the vicious cycle: Union leaders take money from union dues and pass it to Democratic candidates. Once elected, the politicians "negotiate" with the unions that helped elect them.
 

Duff Miver

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No one forces you to contribute to any corp

WTF are you babbling about, doggie? I'm forced to pay taxes which are then given to the likes of Blackwater, Halliburton, and through tax incentives to XOM and many other large for-profit corps.

Does it hurt, doggie, when you're completely wrong about everything?
 
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