Remember when the Bush apologists were taking credit for all of the consumer buying?

[Chadman]

Remember when the Bush apologists were taking credit for all of the consumer buying? And all of the purchasing going on? How his policies created so much economic interest and resurgence? Apparently, even the American Express Crowd has to pay for everything they bought during "the good times...." It has never been a mystery to those not sucking at the teat of the Bush administration that credit fueled the economy - and eventually people have to pay that bill...now it's even hurting the upper crust and the American Express cardholders...also, of course, all these people who bought so much during the previous administration on credit, now has trouble making their payments, while Obama is in office. What happened to personal responsibility? Living within your means? Being industrious?

U.S. credit card defaults rise to 20 year-high
Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:15pm EDT

NEW YORK, March 16 (Reuters) - U.S. credit card defaults rose in February to their highest level in at least 20 years, with losses particularly severe at American Express Co (AXP.N) and Citigroup (C.N) amid a deepening recession .

AmEx, the largest U.S. charge card operator by sales volume, said its net charge-off rate -- debts companies believe they will never be able to collect -- rose to 8.70 percent in February from 8.30 percent in January.

The credit card company's shares wiped out early gains and ended down 3.3 percent as loan losses exceeded expectations. Moshe Orenbuch, an analyst at Credit Suisse, said American Express credit card losses were 10 basis points larger than forecast.

In addition, Citigroup Inc (C.N) -- one of the largest issuers of MasterCard cards -- disappointed analysts as its default rate soared to 9.33 percent in February, from 6.95 percent a month earlier, according to a report based on trusts representing a portion of securitized credit card debt.

"There is a continued deterioration. Trends in credit cards will get worse before they start getting better," said Walter Todd, a portfolio manager at Greenwood Capital Associates.

U.S. unemployment -- currently at 8.1 percent -- is seen approach 10 percent as the country endures its worst recession since World War Two, leaving more than 13 million Americans jobless, according to a Reuters poll of economists.

However, not all were bad surprises. JPMorgan Chase & Co (JPM.N) and Capital One reported higher credit card losses, but they were below analysts expectations.

Chase -- a big issuer of Visa cards -- reported its charge-off rate rose to 6.35 percent in February from 5.94 percent in January. The loss rate for the first two months of the quarter is 126 bps from the previous quarterly average compared to an estimate of a 145 bp increase, Orenbuch said.

Capital One Financial Corp's (COF.N) default rate increased to 8.06 percent in February from 7.82 percent in January.

MORE PAIN AHEAD

Analysts estimate credit card chargeoffs could climb to between 9 and 10 percent this year from 6 to 7 percent at the end of 2008. In that scenario, such losses could total $70 billion to $75 billion in 2009.

"People underestimated the severity of the downturn we are experiencing and I wouldn't be surprised to see them north of 10 percent," said Todd, who added American Express was most exposed to higher credit card losses, given its sole reliance on the industry.

Credit card lenders are trying to protect themselves by tightening credit limits, rising standards, and closing accounts. They have also been slashing rewards, raising interest rates and increasing fees to cushion further losses.

Meredith Whitney, one of Wall Street's best known and most bearish bank analysts, estimates that Americans' credit card lines will be cut by $2.7 trillion, or 50 percent, by the end of 2010 -- and fewer Americans will be offered new cards.

"We believe that the US credit card industry will feel additional credit pain over the next 12-18 months. Until lenders like Capital One show stabilization, followed by trend-bucking improvement over a several-month period, we will continue to remain bearish on credit card lenders," said John Williams, an analyst at Macquarie Research.

Todd said credit card issuers shares -- which are down up to 60 percent in 2009 -- will remain under pressure until the end of 2009, or early next year, when bad loans could start to redeem. (Reporting by Juan Lagorio, editing by Bernard Orr)

 

[saint]

Wait a minute...not only did Bush apply for credit cards on all those people's behalf...but then he had the nerve to go out and charge it to the max?

This isn't a new problem, our country's citizens have been living off of credit cards for years. The only reason it has become an issue is because with the economic downturn there just isn't enough left to cover those minimum payments.

 

[gardenweasel]

Wait a minute...not only did Bush apply for credit cards on all those people's behalf...but then he had the nerve to go out and charge it to the max?

This isn't a new problem, our country's citizens have been living off of credit cards for years. The only reason it has become an issue is because with the economic downturn there just isn't enough left to cover those minimum payments.

i wonder how mant deadbeats are letting mortgages and credit cards default so they can catch a freebie?....

probably more than a few....

 

[Blitz]

I was listening to a local financial advice radio show this weekend and a woman owes $60,000 of credit card debt. The big problem is she makes less than $20,000 a year! I know this woman needs to take responsibility for charging up all that debt, BUT shame on the credit card companies for letting her charge over 3 times of what she makes a year!!

 

[deadeye]

cards/

cards/

why aren't these greedy bastards held accountable for giving these dumbasses a card? they ought to put both of them in the cooler.

 

[Chadman]

Wait a minute...not only did Bush apply for credit cards on all those people's behalf...but then he had the nerve to go out and charge it to the max?

This isn't a new problem, our country's citizens have been living off of credit cards for years. The only reason it has become an issue is because with the economic downturn there just isn't enough left to cover those minimum payments.

Wait a minute...not only did these people charge up a ton of money with their easy to get credit, the Bush administration took credit for all of their purchases during his great economy of the 90's. My point is, people are expected to have to take the responsibility for their own purchases and economic scenarios - but the Bush administration took complete credit for those people and the "purchasing" they did.

I would agree, citizens have been living off credit cards for years - inclusive NOW THAT WE KNOW of American Express card holders and many others never before worried about holders - that the great economy is coming home to roost. No doubt the borrowers are responsible for their debt - the point being that the borrowers financed the "great years" of the Bush economy in never before seen numbers.

Some might call it a "false economy." Others would only take credit for the numbers, and also fault those responsible for those same numbers for their borrowing habits, which fueled the economy they defend.

Carry on, conservative.

 

[Sun Tzu]

Chad I think you have a false impression of who has an Amex card today. It used to be quite exclusive, but Amex got greedy and started letting every Tom Dick and Harry have one. Not to mention allowing revolving credit on some purchases, adding the "Blue Card" that's totally revolving, and so on.

That's the root of the current problems, not the "rich Amex holder."

 

[marine]

Remember when the Bush apologists were taking credit for all of the consumer buying? And all of the purchasing going on? How his policies created so much economic interest and resurgence? Apparently, even the American Express Crowd has to pay for everything they bought during "the good times...." It has never been a mystery to those not sucking at the teat of the Bush administration that credit fueled the economy - and eventually people have to pay that bill...now it's even hurting the upper crust and the American Express cardholders...also, of course, all these people who bought so much during the previous administration on credit, now has trouble making their payments, while Obama is in office. What happened to personal responsibility? Living within your means? Being industrious?

so wait, you think that these "exclusive" amex cardholders.. they went out and spent spent spent from '00-'08. and now, all of a sudden, the past 8 years of spending suddenly all came due in one shot and the 8 years of "purchase power" under Bush, suddenly came to a screeching halt because Obama, our savior, has taken office?

interesting take on it.

Most of us, here in the real world (no, not the tv show) realize that Amex loosened it's application and membership requirements over the past years to allow more fine americans the ability to carry and Amex in their wallet. Amex charges the highest merchant fees of any of the credit companies, so it only makes sense for them to want to get more consumers using their card - so they relaxed the standards.

Now that the economy is in the crapper, many of the people that were old cardholders, and a bulk of the recent people that probably wouldn't have qualified for the card 10 years ago, are losing their jobs and money, etc etc. They are living off their credit card, running it up to max it out and then walking away from it. The American Dream.

This is hardly about Bush and his 'regime'. This is about a corporate business getting greedy and then caught with their pants down.

good try though.
:box2:

 

[The Sponge]

The battle cry in 04 from the Bushsy's was home ownership was at an all time high. Over and over we had to hear this crock of crap. It was their number one platform. Since this crisis i haven't heard one peep about this. It is now the homeowner getting the brunt of the bad news when this was so called great news in 04 :shrug: go figure

 

[StevieD]

The battle cry in 04 from the Bushsy's was home ownership what at an all time high. Over and over we had to hear this. It was their number one platform. since this crisis i haven't heard one peep about this. It is now the homeowner getting the brunt of the bad news when this was so called great news in 04 :shrug: go figure

The right does not want to hold the corporations that are supposed to do credit checks before handing out credit. Everytime I applied for something I went through a credit check. Now they are reducing my limits. Which is fine with me.

 

[Chadman]

I have a simple point - you guys have taken it and ran on tangents with it. My simple point is during the Bush administration credit card purchases at never before seen numbers funded the purchasing and propped up the economy at never before levels of borrowing. Bush, and others here, took credit for a good economy based on those purchases. That's all I'm saying.

I certainly don't think credit card purchasing has stopped under Obama - probably escalated, if anything, due to the crappy economy. So you can get off that argument, marine. I merely brought up American Express, as they are one of the last credit card companies to now be coming forth showing trouble, and I think most would say that they deal more with upper income borrowers than lower - despite lowering their levels. Merely a side not to the point, so you can get off that posturing, if you would. All the buying off credit is coming home to roost, and has over the past few months.

I can certainly call the Bush administration on taking credit for economic gain in large part due to people running up the largest personal debt numbers in history, and taking credit for that "buying" and those "tax receipts." Personal savings down, net worth down, borrowing and credit card debt at all time highs. That's Bush, but if you don't want to think so, that's fine.

My point had nothing to do with Obama - but of course you guys want to link it forward somehow...keep up the tangental work...

 

[saint]

I have a simple point - you guys have taken it and ran on tangents with it. My simple point is during the Bush administration credit card purchases at never before seen numbers funded the purchasing and propped up the economy at never before levels of borrowing. Bush, and others here, took credit for a good economy based on those purchases. That's all I'm saying.

I certainly don't think credit card purchasing has stopped under Obama - probably escalated, if anything, due to the crappy economy. So you can get off that argument, marine. I merely brought up American Express, as they are one of the last credit card companies to now be coming forth showing trouble, and I think most would say that they deal more with upper income borrowers than lower - despite lowering their levels. Merely a side not to the point, so you can get off that posturing, if you would. All the buying off credit is coming home to roost, and has over the past few months.

I can certainly call the Bush administration on taking credit for economic gain in large part due to people running up the largest personal debt numbers in history, and taking credit for that "buying" and those "tax receipts." Personal savings down, net worth down, borrowing and credit card debt at all time highs. That's Bush, but if you don't want to think so, that's fine.

My point had nothing to do with Obama - but of course you guys want to link it forward somehow...keep up the tangental work...

Funny---MANY responses on the thread and 1 person, ONE time, mentioned Obama. So get over it. It's not "you guys", it was one person and it was one sentence. Get over yourself. You're the one turning it to an Obama thing.

Our nation has lived off credit for decades. You act like this is a new thing under Bush.

Regarding your 1st paragraph, there are many nice opinions but nothing that can be substantiated by fact. If it can I'm waiting with baited breath.

The others hit the nail on the head. Amex loosened their criteria and got burnt. I've only ever had the traditional Amex, I pay my balance in full every month. I can tell you that at least 2x a month I've gotten an 'offer' to charge and pay over time. There's a reason they were pushing it. Now they are paying for it.

 

[marine]

I have a simple point - you guys have taken it and ran on tangents with it. My simple point is during the Bush administration credit card purchases at never before seen numbers funded the purchasing and propped up the economy at never before levels of borrowing. Bush, and others here, took credit for a good economy based on those purchases. That's all I'm saying.

I certainly don't think credit card purchasing has stopped under Obama - probably escalated, if anything, due to the crappy economy. So you can get off that argument, marine. I merely brought up American Express, as they are one of the last credit card companies to now be coming forth showing trouble, and I think most would say that they deal more with upper income borrowers than lower - despite lowering their levels. Merely a side not to the point, so you can get off that posturing, if you would. All the buying off credit is coming home to roost, and has over the past few months.

I can certainly call the Bush administration on taking credit for economic gain in large part due to people running up the largest personal debt numbers in history, and taking credit for that "buying" and those "tax receipts." Personal savings down, net worth down, borrowing and credit card debt at all time highs. That's Bush, but if you don't want to think so, that's fine.

My point had nothing to do with Obama - but of course you guys want to link it forward somehow...keep up the tangental work...

Yer making quite a stretch in your own links pal. How about we link it back even further and say that the dot-com boom, which started under Clinton, was the first step in the booming economy. Millionaires were being made overnight with the economy.

Then they sold their businesses in '99/00/01 to the big companies, took the money and spent it.

So we can blame clinton for all this mess now huh?


Amex has been showing trouble for awhile now. They just haven't been advertising it, and there have been companies in much worse trouble.



If your "point" has nothing to do with Obama, why do you reference him in your comments above the article?

 

[Chadman]

Wow - I guess I'd have to say that I've never seen such a stretch of commentary off of a couple posts in this forum as I've seen Saint and Marine go on here.

Let's make this simple - Saint, we can leave Obama completely out of this, as my only reference there in the initial post was inconsequential. This thread is about the economy under Bush, and how it was funded in large part due to the most credit-funded purchases in history. Let's just focus on that, or you can start another thread. My POINT is that credit was used under Bush to fund whatever economic positivity that HIS ADMINISTRATION was taking credit for. It's obviously credit that won't be available to others moving forward for awhile, but that's not the point of my post. To say I'm making this about Obama is a joke, and a smokescreen to the point that has been made. You guys jump on Obama and AMEX, and avoid the point.

Marine, if you think my point was somehow about Obama, then I don't know what to tell you. Seems I've posted a lot of other words other than Obama, but you zero in on that one. And it's MY problem? Okay...whatever, as the kids say...

Not surprisingly, your next comment was to bring Clinton into the mix...and you blame me for changing the subject to be about Obama? I realize why many here, including you, would not want to focus on Bush, but again, whatever.

If you like, we can erase AMEX from my commentary. It was just brought up because it was the latest financial company to signal distress. Not sure why you seem so focused on me and AMEX, if you re-read what I posted. There are plenty of other financial companies that are having troubles, right? Don't you think AMEX is one that could signal irony and be brought up for interest? If not - again - whatever...

 

[Chadman]

Our nation has lived off credit for decades. You act like this is a new thing under Bush.

It is nothing new. If that's what's important to you. My POINT is that it was done in never before seen numbers under Bush, and that funded whatever kind of positive economy he could take credit for. This whole post was designed to be for Wayne, ultimately, who always takes credit for a positive Bush economy. But, thanks for playing. Under Bush, the largest amount of personal credit ever undertaken. Poverty levels rise to high levels. Income discrepancy (upper and lower) is at never before seen levels. Upper income levels reach historic levels, making unheard of (before) amounts of money, despite their "tough tax burden". People simply borrowed to fund the Bush economy, the first in history to enact a tax cut at a time of war - or two wars, depending on your argument.

But, for some, times were great. No doubt...

 

[saint]

It is nothing new. If that's what's important to you. My POINT is that it was done in never before seen numbers under Bush, and that funded whatever kind of positive economy he could take credit for. This whole post was designed to be for Wayne, ultimately, who always takes credit for a positive Bush economy. But, thanks for playing. Under Bush, the largest amount of personal credit ever undertaken.

Multiple opinions. No facts. "Never before seen numbers". "Taking credit". Opinions and not factual. I am up for reading legitimate support for your opinions but until then, they are just opinions.
I tried to find credit card extension under Bush compared to other tenures. I came up empty. Any support for your opinions?

 

[marine]

no horse is too dead to beat again, right?

I commented on this thread because of the abusrdity of its topic.


You took an article about AMEX's financial difficulties and tried to tell us that this is the "bloody glove" of proof that the previous administration gave us all false hope about the economy for 8 years. Yet no where in the article does it mention that.

My comment about Clinton is to show you how absurd your logic is. There are so many interdependancies, reactions, and counteractions in economic growth that you can't just pick one point in history and say - boom - here it is. this is the exact single reason for the strain on the economy. It's simple minded, and quite ridiculous.