the only answer for the u.s. is an alternative energy source

[gardenweasel]

we are losing the p.r. battle....we all know,that the truth in the middle east,is nothing more than a sidebar to the real aim...anti-americanism....we have all seen the reports....that saddam was beating back the coalition....that there were no troops in baghdad....that there was a conspiracy between the u.s. and saddam to undermine iraqi ability to defend against the coalition...they don`t have a clue as to the real truth on many of these issues...and that`s not entirely their fault.....this is the bizarro world......replete with state run media,religious zealotry,tribalism etc.etc.....

without the precious oil flowing beneath their sandals,this is a desert....that`s what it is...nothing more,nothing less...

back to my main point....we can`t win this battle...the battle for the hearts and minds of the middle eastern people...it`s a waste of time,effort and american and british lives.. as i indicated above,the deck is stacked....and throw in the major media in the u.s. and the u.k.....as left leaning as they could possible be....in the u.s.,cnn is still fighting the presidential election...politicism comes first.....the best interests of the country come second...fighting from without and within....

it`s time to put serious pressure on the bush administration...and the politicians in general...we need to be expending resources on potential alternative energy sources....... clean hydrogen based energy might be a good place to start...


the middle east is a dead end street for the u.s....we will win the battle in iraq....but we will surely lose the war....which is the battle for influence and the effort to help democracy take root...


while we fight the war,physically and public relations wise,france is sending people all over the globe garnering support against us....to russia to meet with putin and schroeder.....to egypt....trying to set up a meet with china.....we are being outflanked...we`d better come to our senses...and get out of bed with the huge oil consortiums.....

we may be winning the actual war in iraq(although you`d never know by watching our media)...but,it is but a small battle in the larger picture....

we have to extricate ourseleves from this middle easterm mess...and to do that,we have to extricate ourselves from our dependence on their precious oil...that is the big picture....unfortunately,our leaders are either to stupid or to corrupt to see the obvious.......

 

[ssd]

GW:
Great points. I've actually quit frequenting this particular forum because of all the drivvle...everyone trying to change each other's mind and bashing the hell out of each other in the process. It's unfortunate because a lot of great points have been made but I'm tired of the BS.
Your post is very insightful and true. An alternative energy source makes great sense for our country and we should be expending more money in this endeavor. We have spent 5 trillion dollars over the past 50 years on social programs that have not worked yet we continue to fund these programs. Start spending on research for a renewabe enrgy source like Hydrogen cells. Quit our dependence on foreign oil or at lest curb it. I know I will draw protests on this one but I am for Arctic drilling and exploration. I lean conservative in my politics but am strongly pro-environment. I have had many ecological classes and have attended seminars. I am not a "tree-hugger" but I believe we need to take better care of the Earth. In saying this, I personally believe the ecological impact on the Arctic wildlife would be miniscule. I support this IF we use the only found in Alaska for United States consumption.

 

[shamrock]

couldn't agree more, right on target regarding middle East. Very valid points regarding politics as well, its shameful everything is agenda driven, even when its bad for the Country or humanity, but supports the agenda. Unfortunately politics has hindered much progress in our Country, and world for that matter. For some reason the good of the party comes before the good of the Country or righteousness.

Personally I don't see the point in backing ones Party to the detriment of righteousness. There's good & bad, correct & wrong everywhere. Country would be for the better if we could extract the good from both sides and end all the in fighting.

Some are just to Hell bent on their Party, they see no alternatives anywhere, if its part of the party its good. Some people don't even know what or who they stand for. They just know who their daddy voted for. Its 2 bad, but its the truth.

Shamrock

 

[djv]

It will happen regardless of politics. Sooner then expected oil will be talked about as a memory. The sooner we start to rid our selfs the better. There is no endless supply of oil. And with more third world countries in need of it. With China needs doubling for it every 3 years. Well im afraid just drilling for alittle more here and here is not the answer. The folks that find the cheep way and good products to replace it. Will blow by the richest folks on this earth in wealth.

 

[gardenweasel]

the oil companies are starting to feel the pinch

the oil companies are starting to feel the pinch

they are developing a "dirty" hydrogen based energy source....but that still uses coal or oil as a base product...

 

[ssd]

GW:
Where did you get this info on the "dirty" hydrogen cell? If you have a link, please post. I'm interested as I have been following Fuel Cell technology (Ballard, Plug)

Thanks

 

[gardenweasel]

ssd

ssd

these guys are far more radical than many...but i try to read up on some of this stuff....this article is a bit long in the tooth....there are others....pull up "david suzuki foundation on your search engine....or go to www.nrdc.org....as i said,these guys are pretty extreme.....as far as the dirty cell info and auto industry,i saw rfk jr on a talk show awhile back expounding on the issue.......


"Dirty" hydrogen could foul fuel cell potential.
Mar 21, 2000

Vancouver - The green halo around fuel cells could vanish if the wrong fuel is chosen to power them, wasting their clean-energy potential, according to a report released today by the David Suzuki Foundation and the Pembina Institute for Appropriate Development.

The report, Climate-Friendly Hydrogen Fuel, says that while the fuel cell itself produces no harmful emissions, generating the hydrogen they use as fuel could cause almost as much damage to the earth's climate as burning gasoline in today's cars.

"The fuel cell is a remarkable technology that has the potential to replace the internal combustion engine as a clean and economic source of power. But if we make hydrogen from the wrong fuel source, such as gasoline, we will have squandered a crucial opportunity to address global warming and air pollution," says David Hocking, Communications Director for the David Suzuki Foundation.

"Our life-cycle analysis of the various systems proposed for hydrogen fuel supply shows that they differ widely in the pollution they cause. Up to now there has been virtually no public discussion of those differences," says Rob Macintosh of the Pembina Institute for Appropriate Development.

To be truly pollution-free, the hydrogen must come from a renewable source, such as solar or wind power. Unfortunately, hydrogen from these sources is not yet available commercially. Currently, hydrogen is created by passing a heavy electric current through water or by stripping it out of fossil fuels, such as natural gas, methanol or gasoline.

According to the report, the cleanest option among those available today is to strip hydrogen from natural gas. That approach would cut emissions of carbon dioxide, the main culprit behind global warming, by about 70 per cent.

"Until renewable sources of hydrogen are commercially available, we must use the next best option, natural gas. By choosing natural gas to make hydrogen, we will cut pollution dramatically now, as well as build the framework for completely clean power - hydrogen generated from renewable energy sources," Hocking says.

Using the Pembina Institute's technique, known as Life-Cycle Value Assessment, Climate-Friendly Hydrogen Fuel takes into account greenhouse gas emissions related to extracting raw materials to produce the hydrogen, processing and refining it, transporting and distributing it, as well as operating fuel cell vehicles with it.

"We can also expect the choice of hydrogen supply systems to make a huge difference in how well this technology helps solve local air issues, such as acid rain and urban smog. As fuel cell options develop we will need to further refine our understanding of their full-cycle implications," says Macintosh.

The study shows that options such as stripping hydrogen from gasoline would lead to only modest reductions in greenhouse gas emissions - in the order of 20 per cent.

"With the production and marketing of fuel-cell vehicles just over the horizon, the decisions we make today are critical. If we power these vehicles with dirty hydrogen, we will entrench the role of vehicles as the biggest and fastest growing contributor to global warming," Macintosh says.

For further information, please contact:

David Hocking, Communications Director David Suzuki Foundation (604) 732-4228, Cell: 727-8651 Rob Macintosh, Director, Corporate Eco-efficiency Services, Pembina Institute for Appropriate Development Cell (780) 542-8488


SHEC labs completes development on Prototype Hydrogen Separator Technology.
July 12, 2000
Saskatoon, Canada: SHEC labs - Solar Hydrogen Energy Corporation (SHEC) has developed a process to use the heat energy of the sun to extract hydrogen out of water.

Hydrogen is a clean fuel. When hydrogen is consumed in a fuel cell, the primary exhaust is water vapor. There are no carbon emissions, such as carbon dioxide (CO2), which is a greenhouse gas attributable to global warming and climate change.

The hydrogen fuel cell, currently being designed into the next generation of automobiles, requires hydrogen fuel to operate. Typically, hydrogen is primarily produced from fossil fuels in a process called steam reforming. This process still creates carbon emissions and is often referred to as "dirty hydrogen".

SHEC concentrates sunlight with reflectors to create the heat required to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. Since reflectors are relatively inexpensive to manufacture, the potential for an economically viable "clean and renewable" hydrogen source now exists.

On July 11th, 2000, after extensive testing, SHEC labs has successfully developed an effective hydrogen gas separation process, which will be integrated with its solar thermal water splitting process. This is another major step required for the completion of a "Concept Machine", which is currently being manufactured. Hydrogen purities of 99.999% have been achieved with the process so far. The concept machine should be demonstrational, as an entire unit, in the near future. The continuing development work that is now being conducted will be used in the future commercialization of the technology.

"Our process is a complete renewable energy cycle. Water that is used in the production of hydrogen is returned to the planet, when the hydrogen is consumed as a fuel. The potential for a hydrogen energy economy is enormous. It can power cars and provide heat and electricity to homes." said Ray Fehr, spokesperson for SHEC labs.

SHEC labs - Solar Hydrogen Energy Corporation is a leader in the development of Solar Hydrogen fuel. At the heart of our system, is a proprietary water splitting technology that converts water into hydrogen and oxygen, without any pollution. It is a totally clean and renewable energy system.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[ferdville]

Weasel - thanks for the intelligent post. And I bet this is a post that most of us can certainly subscribe to. I'm in total agreement. I do not think there is anything we can do short term, and perhaps long term, to change the view of the U.S. widely held in the Mid East. We have to put ourselves in a position where we don't need the oil. Then opinions might change for other reasons. I am far from a scientist, but is seems that with all the geniuses roaming around this earth, someone can come up with a doable replacement for oil. However, there seem to be so many forces working against it. Just this week, it may have been GM, gave up on its electric car production. One of their plants in California is finished.

 

[djv]

Ferdville you dont see or here maybe im wrong. But a minor lip service from our government in direction of fuels other then oil. We know now how to produce better efficent car engines today. But the big three as there called. They Say consumers wont pay the extra cost. How much more can it be 150 bucks. Hell they seem to worry more about how expensive a audio system they can put in. Why not more efficent engine. Believe we just bailed out the airlines again. Hell they were going under befroe 9/11. At least two or three were. Why not put some real money in a pot for new fuels to begin replacing oil. And I dont mean 3/4 hundred million. Lets throw a few billion at it like what the airlines got 3.5 billion. Whats this war going to cost us? Estimate 80 to 100 billion. We just seem to talk but take no real action in this direction. Tell you what Japan and China are and will. We could be Johnny come lately. I dont understand why everyone runs scared of the oil business. Hell oil companies should get in to looing for better ways them selfs. But what do we here. The old broken record. We need to drill for more oil. Yup lets throw another 8 billion at that instead.

 

[ssd]

Oil companies will lose billions of dollars if there is a more efficient car produced or a switch in this country to cleaner fuels. France is 70% Nuclear. We could be also. There are a multitude of options available to us. Solar, Geo-thermal, fuel cell, wind, water...the list keeps getting bigger but the PAC's for the oil conglomerates are too strong and have their hands into too many politicians pockets (both Democrat and Republican). Without the US oil consumption, there would not be a Middle East problem. We could let the area take care of themselves.

I have followed the fuel cell technology and they are starting to make progress in large terms for power plants, etc. It will take the government to get on board and start funding some testing of this equipment to really get the ball rolling. Unfortunately, when "alternative fuels" get discussed, they are usually brought up in terms of being "eco-friendly" which instantly causes a debate. It is more than worrying about the environment; it is a geo-political issue that would go a long way to solving some of this nation's foreign problems.

 

[ferdville]

Maybe I am naive, but I don't see big government stopping production of a better source of fuel as much as big business. There is a problem in that production of a new source will invariably be decried as the work of environmental nut cases. But even conservatives with half a brain should see through that ruse. We have had success with nuclear energy, but the public is afraid of anything with the word nuclear in it so it hasn't been accepted. Bush just got some big bucks appropriated for the fuel cell research, hopefully that will send us in the right direction.