To those who use science as their ledge for not believing in GOd

SpursDynasty

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Thomas Nagel "Fear of Religion" displays the holes and flaws in the well renown book from Richard Dawkins "the God delusion". this is a blog commentary but gives a good summary. this is not the actual "fear of religion, which i encourage all atheists to read it tho)

this is from a blog regarding the book:

Following up on my last post, Thomas Nagel has an excellent review in The New Republic of Richard Dawkins' latest book, The God Delusion (subscription required). He describes the book as "a very uneven collection of scriptural ridicule, amateur philosophy, historical and contemporary horror stories, anthropological speculations, and cosmological scientific argument." While Nagel is not a religious person himself, he finds Dawkins' arguments for the non-existence of God unconvincing (incredibly, the book contains a chapter entitled "Why There Almost Certainly Is No God". Well, then I guess we'd better cancel church this Sunday). According to Nagel, the primary flaw in Dawkins's thinking is a lack of imagination, in that he can only conceive of two grand explanations: a "physicalist naturalism" and "the God Hypothesis" (read, crude theism). But these "stark alternatives may not exhaust the possibilities". Moreover, Nagel points out that both perspectives require faith, notwithstanding Dawkin's outlandish claims for science:

"All explanations come to an end somewhere. The real opposition between Dawkins's physicalist naturalism and the God hypothesis is a disagreement over whether this end point is physical, extensional, and purposeless, or mental, intentional, and purposive. On either view, the ultimate explanation is not itself explained. The God hypothesis does not explain the existence of God, and naturalistic physicalism does not explain the laws of physics."


Dawkins is clearly perplexed and angry that, 400 years since the dawn of the Enlightenment, so many people continue believe in God. So why aren't people satisfied with a purely scientific understanding of the world? Are they deluded? Dawkins certainly thinks so. But for Nagel, the explanation lies in the fact that the reductionist worldview offered by modern science simply doesn't do justice to reality as experienced by actual humans:

Dawkins, like many of his contemporaries, is hobbled by the assumption that the only alternative to religion is to insist that the ultimate explanation of everything must lie in particle physics, string theory, or whatever purely extensional laws govern the elements of which the material world is composed.

This reductionist dream is nourished by the extraordinary success of the physical sciences in our time, not least in their recent application to the understanding of life through molecular biology. It is natural to try to take any successful intellectual method as far as it will go. Yet the impulse to find an explanation of everything in physics has over the last fifty years gotten out of control. The concepts of physical science provide a very special, and partial, description of the world that experience reveals to us. It is the world with all subjective consciousness, sensory appearances, thought, value, purpose, and will left out. What remains is the mathematically describable order of things and events in space and time.

That conceptual purification launched the extraordinary development of physics and chemistry that has taken place since the seventeenth century. But reductive physicalism turns this description into an exclusive ontology. The reductionist project usually tries to reclaim some of the originally excluded aspects of the world, by analyzing them in physical--that is, behavioral or neurophysiological--terms; but it denies reality to what cannot be so reduced. I believe the project is doomed--that conscious experience, thought, value, and so forth are not illusions, even though they cannot be identified with physical facts.


Dawkins fails to realize that science will never be able to provide an adequate basis for a complete understanding of human existence. It can only give us abstractions which, however useful they may be, are not the substance of life. What Johann Hamann says of historical events is also true of scientific theories and the law of nature; they "are like that wide valley full of dry bones - and lo, they were very dry. No one but a prophet could presage that veins and flesh would grow on these bones and that skin would cover them. As yet there is no breath in them, until the prophet prophesies unto the wind and the word of the Lord speaks..."
 
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buddy

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Dawkins fails to realize that science will never be able to provide an adequate basis for a complete understanding of human existence. It can only give us abstractions which, however useful they may be, are not the substance of life.

Jesus Christ will not leave you desolate.

If you earnestly seek Him, you will find Him.

But each one of us were created with a free will. If you feel you don't want Him now, so be it. But things may change. One never knows from one moment to the next.

God is the Father. Jesus Christ is the Son.

You cannot get to the Father except through the Son.

When you call on Him, He will answer. It may not happen right away, but it will happen sooner than later and HE WILL DEFINITELY ANSWER YOUR REQUEST.

You'll see.

You will also come to a much clearer understanding of human existence and a profound realization of the substance of life. Oh, will you ever!

The greatest event in all of human history was the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
 

kosar

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How long did Jesus live after he was 'resurrected?' Obviously, 'resurrection' means rising from the dead. He was dead for three days, right? I think that's the story.

I'm not too wired in to all this crap, but i've seen enough arguments about it over the years from people on each side.

I never really thought about it, but after this big 'resurrection', how much longer did Jesus survive?

Did he just pop his head up, wave to everybody and lay back down? Or did he lead a productive life as a carpenter for a few more years?

Thanks.
 

THE KOD

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I never really thought about it, but after this big 'resurrection', how much longer did Jesus survive?

Did he just pop his head up, wave to everybody and lay back down? Or did he lead a productive life as a carpenter for a few more years?

Thanks.
................................................

kosar .... wow , where do I start.

Jesus when resurreced appeared to his diciples and showed them his wounds. One guy stuck his finger right thru the hole in his hand.

at least I think thats what happened
 

Nosigar

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How long did Jesus live after he was 'resurrected?' Obviously, 'resurrection' means rising from the dead. He was dead for three days, right? I think that's the story.

I'm not too wired in to all this crap, but i've seen enough arguments about it over the years from people on each side.

I never really thought about it, but after this big 'resurrection', how much longer did Jesus survive?

Did he just pop his head up, wave to everybody and lay back down? Or did he lead a productive life as a carpenter for a few more years?

Thanks.

Didn't you see the movie(s)?
 

WhatsHisNuts

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Dawkins fails to realize that science will never be able to provide an adequate basis for a complete understanding of human existence. It can only give us abstractions which, however useful they may be, are not the substance of life. What Johann Hamann says of historical events is also true of scientific theories and the law of nature; they "are like that wide valley full of dry bones - and lo, they were very dry. No one but a prophet could presage that veins and flesh would grow on these bones and that skin would cover them. As yet there is no breath in them, until the prophet prophesies unto the wind and the word of the Lord speaks..."

This paragraph is great....for what, I have no idea. It starts off saying that Dawkins can't provide a basis for a complete understanding of human existence.....I guess that is a point for those that believe in spirits, ghosts, and supernatural beings. If you read The God Delusion, you'll see that Dawkins never admits to knowing how everything works, but rather points to the reasons the supernatural argument is outdated and unreasonable. He doesn't claim to know how everything started, but he's confident (like myself) that a fictional character, created by people a few thousand years ago, didn't.

Spurs: Have you read The God Delusion? It is not a great book, but it is decent. Dawkins spends a lot of time discussing things that are just plain boring, but he does have something to offer and makes some decent points. If you want to read something that is really well done, try reading something by Sam Harris. The End of Faith is top notch, but you can get the jist of it in his much shorter Letter to a Christian Nation.

The trouble in paradise with arguments made against atheist arguments is that these writers never do anything but try to discredit science. Where's the problem? Well, you never seem to be able to prove that there is a man in the sky that created EVERYTHING. Oh, and there is no way to explain where HE came from. Believing in imaginary figures is much more credible than evolution, so there is apparently no need to justify that. Brilliant. Please make sure to respond with "faith" as your answer to the question of "What makes you so sure that a supernatural figure created everything?" because that really answers the question.
 

dr. freeze

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e = mc squared

matter cannot be created or destroyed

any action produces an equal and opposite reaction

fundamentals of science lean towards a higher power

sorry athiests
 

dr. freeze

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you cant explain the existence of matter and energy in this world without a creator other than defying our laws of physics

you can't explain what set in motion the "big bang" without defying the laws of physics

a higher power is at least a viable explanation which does not violate these natural laws

all other explanations currently violate them

the burden of proof lies squarely on the athiest's shoulders with any other question thereafter which we will never get

athiesm is a belief system that takes more faith than does belief in a higher power because of this
 

WhatsHisNuts

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you cant explain the existence of matter and energy in this world without a creator other than defying our laws of physics

you can't explain what set in motion the "big bang" without defying the laws of physics

a higher power is at least a viable explanation which does not violate these natural laws

all other explanations currently violate them

the burden of proof lies squarely on the athiest's shoulders with any other question thereafter which we will never get

athiesm is a belief system that takes more faith than does belief in a higher power because of this

You can't explain it, therefore a supernatural creator must exist. Do you see the problem with that logic? It makes no sense! It is crazy talk. If I tell you that the Easter Bunny exists, the fact that you can not prove it doesn't exist doesn't mean that it does.

Why does the burden of proof lie on the shoulders of the atheists?! That is asinine. Your the one that says the universe is created by a man in the sky but the burden of proof is on the people that think that is outright insanity? How does this make sense to you?

By the way, if there is a superatural creator, how do you know your imaginary character is the right one? Please answer without using the word faith.
 

SpursDynasty

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I have no idea what that is. I am a human being.

also known as materialism.

"Physicalism is the thesis that, in some sense, everything (beliefs, thunderstorms, people, sounds, etc.) is physical. So what exactly is it to be physical? The most common response to this question is to refer to the picture of the world that we get from the physical sciences. Under this picture, to be physical is to be describable in quantitative terms. Physical properties can be thought of as structural properties which consist in a thing's spatial and functional qualities; its dynamics.

A further condition of physicalism is that the physical world is causally closed. The causal closure thesis essentially states that every physical event has a physical cause. More strongly, it often asserts that everything that happens in the world can be explained by the causal interactions that occur at the fundamental physical level."
 

buddy

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Gary,

You are going to paint yourself into an intellectual corner. When you do, call on the name of Jesus and He will provide a way.

John - 14:6 / "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way , the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me".
 

WhatsHisNuts

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Gary,

You are going to paint yourself into an intellectual corner. When you do, call on the name of Jesus and He will provide a way.

John - 14:6 / "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way , the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me".

Buddy, I appreciate the attention and the effort, but it's just not for me. I think your passion is admirable and hope that you pursue it. It makes you happy and you might be able to connect with someone else that might get something out of it....but, I'm not that guy.
 

hammer1

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Give the money back Freeze................

Give the money back Freeze................

I see a bright future for u in Fast Food !!!!!!!!

you cant explain the existence of matter and energy in this world without a creator other than defying our laws of physics

you can't explain what set in motion the "big bang" without defying the laws of physics

a higher power is at least a viable explanation which does not violate these natural laws

all other explanations currently violate them

the burden of proof lies squarely on the athiest's shoulders with any other question thereafter which we will never get

athiesm is a belief system that takes more faith than does belief in a higher power because of this
 

Spytheweb

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Should that be

Should that be

To those who use science as their ledge for not believing in a God. There are many Gods, and why do you have to believe in any? If you are a good person and treat people well and just, why do you need a God?
 

buddy

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If you are a good person and treat people well and just, why do you need a God?

No matter how "good" we are, none of us measure up. I know..."speak for yourself", buddy. But the truth is, all of us have come short of the glory of God.

The apostle Paul writes in Romans 3: 10-18

10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13. Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:

14. Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:

15. Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:

16. Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:

17. And the way of peace have they not known:

18. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Secondly, if you have difficulty with the goodness, grace and mercy of an omnipotent and omniscient God, you may want to think a little about "the snare of the fowler".

Ephesians 6:12

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]".

The ultimate battle is God and satan...between the power of good and evil.

Mentioning the title of God is politically safe. Proclaiming the name of Jesus Christ makes it far more exclusive.

Jesus saves.
 
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