US Torture

Jabberwocky

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60 minutes, that liberal rag, is running a story about an innocent man who was tortured by the US government and detained for 5 years. GW loves the government, and thinks that all we have done is waterboarded 2 people (no way you are an idiot, GW. Not a chance. ) and it pays his bills, but wtf???? Do any of you neocon dipshits understand your parties principles? I have Dutch citizenship thanks to my wife and I am ready to get the **** out of here. Too many "patriots" for my taste.

Good luck with your dollar.
 

Spytheweb

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This is Bushworld. McCain was tortured in Vietnam, but he's ready to carry on Bush's torture policy, how crazy is that? After Bush leaves office i bet proof will turn up that will show how wide spread the torture policy is. Things that Bush is up to, we have not seen even the tip yet. How a person like Bush could ever hold the seat of President is just amazing. He has really lowered the bar. What is just as amazing is that persons in power just let things go as it did. No one tried to stop him and till this day sit around powerless.

Now Bush wants to put private banks in charge of wall street. This country is heading for a big crash and the government is sitting around watching it all happen.
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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"60 minutes, that liberal rag, is running a story about an innocent man who was tortured by the US government and detained for 5 years"

you do mean Muslim who CLAIMS he was tortured--

Do they have any doctored (fabricated) documents in support this one too. :)

---by the way--Algazeera had poll on U'S. presidency
--they had a couple responses from U.S.--
thought they might make your day :)

Added: Monday, 31 March 2008, 09:58 AM Mecca time, 06:58 AM GMT
As an individual that wants to convert to Islam, it pains me to see the Palestinians being pushed around the way they are by the Israelis. Because of this, my first order of business would be to cut off the aid and support to Israel until they leave all of the West Bank and give East Jerusalem to the Palestinians as their capital. For too long has the US government sat idly by as Palestinians are being exterminated from the very land they live on. This must stop, and Isreal must be held accountable. My next order of business would be to leave Iraq and Afghanistan. The lives of countless Muslim victims are being lost all so that Bush and his business buddies can make massive profits rebuilding. We must think of the livlihoods of fellow Muslims and stop occupying them. American colonialism like this can go on no longer. My final decree aspresident would be to convince more Muslims to move to the US. If there were more Muslims, we could affect the US policy. Praise Allah
crisim21, Levittown , USA
 
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Chadman

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Well, apparently the U.S. Intelligence organizations deemed his story to be more true than your assumption of guilt - or hope that he and those like him are held without reason - but don't let that get in the way of a good terrorist/liar story.

From the report, which showed military documents from our own government:

Six months after Kurnaz reached Guantanamo, U.S. military intelligence had written, "criminal investigation task force has no definite link [or] evidence of detainee having an association with al Qaeda or making any specific threat toward the U.S."

At the same time, German intelligence agents wrote their government, saying, "USA considers Murat Kurnaz?s innocence to be proven. He is to be released in approximately six to eight weeks."

But Azmy says Kurnaz was kept at Guantanamo Bay for three and a half years after this memo was written in 2002.
 

gardenweasel

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60 minutes, that liberal rag, is running a story about an innocent man who was tortured by the US government and detained for 5 years. GW loves the government, and thinks that all we have done is waterboarded 2 people (no way you are an idiot, GW. Not a chance. ) and it pays his bills, but wtf???? Do any of you neocon dipshits understand your parties principles? I have Dutch citizenship thanks to my wife and I am ready to get the **** out of here. Too many "patriots" for my taste.

Good luck with your dollar.

"The U.S. Pentagon responding by e-mail says, "We treat all detainees humanely? and all credible claims are investigated thoroughly?. The abuses Mr. Kurnaz alleges are not only unsubstantiated and implausible, they are simply outlandish."

something you should read....an australian article...

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world...es-take-up-arms/2007/07/27/1185339258055.html


of course you believe him......and your outrage is noted....you`ve devoted an entire thread to it.....


"Sgt. Matt Maupin is dead, the parents of the missing Clermont County soldier said today.

Maupin?s remain were found in Iraq, nearly four years after he was captured by insurgents, his parents said. An Army general came to Clermont County today to notify them, they said.

?Matt is coming home. He?s completed his mission,? his father, Keith Maupin, said."

hey quisling...i missed the post in which you expressed your outrage about the deprivation of sgt maupin`s "rights"......

did i miss it?......help me out concerned citizen....

i can just hear you,around the water cooler, speaking of the unbearable horror this enemy combatant underwent......


any mention of sgt. matt maupin?......i doubt it...

anything i can do to help expedite your relocation,you just let me know....you should be right at home in the soon-to-be 26th arab/muslim state....

don`t let the door hit you in the ass...
 
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gardenweasel

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Well, apparently the U.S. Intelligence organizations deemed his story to be more true than your assumption of guilt - or hope that he and those like him are held without reason - but don't let that get in the way of a good terrorist/liar story.

From the report, which showed military documents from our own government:

Six months after Kurnaz reached Guantanamo, U.S. military intelligence had written, "criminal investigation task force has no definite link [or] evidence of detainee having an association with al Qaeda or making any specific threat toward the U.S."

At the same time, German intelligence agents wrote their government, saying, "USA considers Murat Kurnaz?s innocence to be proven. He is to be released in approximately six to eight weeks."

But Azmy says Kurnaz was kept at Guantanamo Bay for three and a half years after this memo was written in 2002.

post your source please,chad......not saying he hasn`t been exonerated(of course,given the pressure the administration`s under from the media and other pro-jihadists,we`re releasing many bad guys mistakenly...see above)... ...just like to know where you got your info...

thanks..
 
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WhatsHisNuts

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Torture is an ethical issue, but not in the way most think. Is it right to torture one to save the lives of many? In my opinion, it absolutely is. To clear things up though, I think a clear distinction HAS to be made about the possible outcomes. If you are going to torture to get intelligence that might do this or might lead to that, I think it is wrong. The threat has to be direct and tied to the subject. In many ways, it is more of an economic issue than an ethical one.

PS: Before anyone goes the wrong way with my last statement, economics is often regarded as a study of benefits (whether it be in a dollar figure or human lives).
 

Chadman

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Wease, I got my info from the story itself, Pelley obtained documents from the Intelligence Department - I assume it was public domain info, and I know it was an issue and was brought to light previously. Also, German authorities had the same info, and made the assumption/statement he was to be released based on the intelligence finding of innocence.

Maybe not good enough, but seems pretty solid.
 

Spytheweb

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"The U.S. Pentagon responding by e-mail says, "We treat all detainees humanely? and all credible claims are investigated thoroughly?. The abuses Mr. Kurnaz alleges are not only unsubstantiated and implausible, they are simply outlandish."

something you should read....an australian article...

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world...es-take-up-arms/2007/07/27/1185339258055.html


of course you believe him......and your outrage is noted....you`ve devoted an entire thread to it.....


"Sgt. Matt Maupin is dead, the parents of the missing Clermont County soldier said today.

Maupin?s remain were found in Iraq, nearly four years after he was captured by insurgents, his parents said. An Army general came to Clermont County today to notify them, they said.

?Matt is coming home. He?s completed his mission,? his father, Keith Maupin, said."

hey quisling...i missed the post in which you expressed your outrage about the deprivation of sgt maupin`s "rights"......

did i miss it?......help me out concerned citizen....

i can just hear you,around the water cooler, speaking of the unbearable horror this enemy combatant underwent......


any mention of sgt. matt maupin?......i doubt it...

anything i can do to help expedite your relocation,you just let me know....you should be right at home in the soon-to-be 26th arab/muslim state....

don`t let the door hit you in the ass...

Last Updated: Friday, 19 October 2007, 08:59 GM

US lawmakers' apology to Canadian
Maher Arar appears on a video screen before a House hearing
Canada has urged the US to remove him from its watch list
Members of Congress have apologised to a Canadian who was seized in New York in 2002 by US officials and sent to Syria, where he says he was tortured.

Syrian-born Maher Arar told a congressional hearing his 10 months in a Syrian jail had been "hell".

Mr Arar appeared by video link from Canada because he remains on a US government watch list.

A Canadian government inquiry cleared him of any involvement in terrorism. Syria denies that he was tortured.

Mr Arar appeared on a giant screen before a joint hearing of House of Representatives committees into "extraordinary rendition".

This term refers to a highly secretive process by which US intelligence agencies send terror suspects for interrogation by security officials in other countries, where they have no legal protection or rights under US law.

'Still haunted'

Mr Arar described being detained by US homeland security agents at New York's JFK airport and of later being sent by private jet to Syria, where he spent 10 months in a prison cell he described as a grave.

"I was beaten with an electrical cable and threatened with a metal chair, the tyre and electric shocks. I was forced to falsely confess that I had been to Afghanistan," he said.

"When I was not being beaten I was put in a waiting room so that I could hear the screams of other prisoners. The cries of the women still haunt me the most."

Mr Arar was later released without charge.

Among those offering their apologies at the hearing was Congressman Jerrold Nadler from New York.

"On behalf of my fellow citizens I want to apologise to you, Mr Arar, for the reprehensible conduct of our government for kidnapping you, for turning you over to Syria - a nation that our own state department recognises as routinely practising torture. This conduct does not reflect the values of the American people," he said.

Rep Dana Rohrabacher also apologised, saying the US should be ashamed of what happened to Mr Arar.

But, he said, "that is no excuse to end a programme which has protected the lives of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Americans... We are at war. Mistakes happen. People die".

The Canadian government has formally apologised to Mr Arar and offered him compensation amounting to more than $10m (US $10.2m, ?5m).

Watch extraordinary rendition, how the US flies people to 3rd countries, and tortures them.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/rendition701/
 

Eddie Haskell

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Wayne:

This is an example of the points I've been railing about with you for years. 9-11 gave Bush carte blanche to load up the executive branch with extraordinary, unchecked power. No judicial supervision. This country sat back and let him do it under the guise of national security. He was a dangerous man to have in the presidency at the wrong time. He abused his power.

You and I will disagree on this till our dying day, but I believe our national security would have been protected, EVEN MORE SO, had he stayed within the rule of law, instead of acting like a terrorist himself and attempting to beat the answers out of everyone instead of OUTSMART the bad guys.

Believe it or not, I want the terrorists as bad as you do. I just don't believe in alienating the majority of the world will accomplish that goal. And by the way, you can't prove a negative with a negative. In other words, it is not a necessary correlation between no major terrorist attack on US soil since 9-11 and the Bush policy.

We will all pay for Bush's failure to follow the law.

Eddie
 

gardenweasel

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Last Updated: Friday, 19 October 2007, 08:59 GM

US lawmakers' apology to Canadian
Maher Arar appears on a video screen before a House hearing
Canada has urged the US to remove him from its watch list
Members of Congress have apologised to a Canadian who was seized in New York in 2002 by US officials and sent to Syria, where he says he was tortured.

Syrian-born Maher Arar told a congressional hearing his 10 months in a Syrian jail had been "hell".

Mr Arar appeared by video link from Canada because he remains on a US government watch list.

A Canadian government inquiry cleared him of any involvement in terrorism. Syria denies that he was tortured.

Mr Arar appeared on a giant screen before a joint hearing of House of Representatives committees into "extraordinary rendition".

This term refers to a highly secretive process by which US intelligence agencies send terror suspects for interrogation by security officials in other countries, where they have no legal protection or rights under US law.

'Still haunted'

Mr Arar described being detained by US homeland security agents at New York's JFK airport and of later being sent by private jet to Syria, where he spent 10 months in a prison cell he described as a grave.

"I was beaten with an electrical cable and threatened with a metal chair, the tyre and electric shocks. I was forced to falsely confess that I had been to Afghanistan," he said.

"When I was not being beaten I was put in a waiting room so that I could hear the screams of other prisoners. The cries of the women still haunt me the most."

Mr Arar was later released without charge.

Among those offering their apologies at the hearing was Congressman Jerrold Nadler from New York.

"On behalf of my fellow citizens I want to apologise to you, Mr Arar, for the reprehensible conduct of our government for kidnapping you, for turning you over to Syria - a nation that our own state department recognises as routinely practising torture. This conduct does not reflect the values of the American people," he said.

Rep Dana Rohrabacher also apologised, saying the US should be ashamed of what happened to Mr Arar.

But, he said, "that is no excuse to end a programme which has protected the lives of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Americans... We are at war. Mistakes happen. People die".

The Canadian government has formally apologised to Mr Arar and offered him compensation amounting to more than $10m (US $10.2m, ?5m).

Watch extraordinary rendition, how the US flies people to 3rd countries, and tortures them.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/rendition701/

4 OR 5 RESPONSES AND NOT ONE MENTIONED THE NAME OF MATT MAUPIN?.....and you wonder why i get so disgusted with you guys and call you quislings when you kiss stw`s ass time and again...

you`re tools...you could care less what happened to "our" guys...

it`s all about "bush"...you`re toadies that couldn`t analyze an issue objectively if someone rubbed your noses in it...

syria denies he was tortured....the u.s. denied he was tortured....yet,you take this guy`s word.....

i offer up articles on terrorists gaming our system only to show up on the battlefield again to kill our troops...

silence...

the evidence he was tortured is?.....his word?.....is he scarred?....do his arms look like mccain`s?...

and what of matt maupin?...who`s paying him for his....MURDER?....

doesn`t seem to bother you that he was held for years and MURDERED....

lets get some facts straight...3 top al qaeda operatives have been waterboarded...out of thousands of detainees in the 6 years of the war with al qaeda...hasn`t been done in 4 years...

they were not permanently harmed...but the intel,has been extremely valuable...

get it?...

you see,for the "eddie`s' and the "stw`s" it's all about the narrative (i.e.hurt america), the facts be damned.....

i`m surprised they aren`t whining about our still using incandescent lights in the interrogation rooms(oh,the horror)...

truthfully,after murdering 3,000+ on our own soil,they`re lucky we don`t "black and decker" their asses like the old ira used to do....

seriously,we have a technique that terrifies them, but doesn't hurt them, and we want to give it up?...

again,we`ve waterboarded 3 major terrorist leaders and extracted important information.... which is much worse in the warped minds of the eddie`s and the spy`s and the `wocky`s than rigging downs' kids with nails and semtex....much, much worse....


just like the surveillance issue...it works...it`s a necessary tool to monitor calls from outside the country...from terrorist states and sources.....

that`s why guys like eddie and spy propagandize it.......the quislings with an agenda try and spin it to make the gullible think that the gov`t is spying on it`s citizens....

to what end?...wheres that evidence?....

crickets...

it`s a simple game...the contrived controversy is about handicapping our anti-terrorism efforts by the left...and their jihadi puppet masters...

well done,spy...

btw,why don`t you put that air force emblem back up spy?....lol
 

Eddie Haskell

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We are taking the main issue Gary not the consequences of war. You wouldn't know Matt Maupin's name if it wasn't for George Bush. He would still be my neighbor if it wasn't for George Bush. As far as Matt Maupin is concerned, his parents were just a photo op for George Bush.

The facts that you don't want to seem to accept are that Al Quida is now in Iraq and they were not there under Sadaam. The second fact you don't want to accept is that the government is permitted to look into each of our personal lives with greater impunity now then ever before thanks to scare tactics without any safeguards regardless of the Constitution and the last fact that you don't want to accept is that Bush has basically eliminated the checks and balances of the 3 branches of this government and totally empowered the executive branch so that effectively we are living under more of a dictatorship than ever before in our country's history.

As I've said before, he is a criminal and should be tried for treason.

Eddie
 

Chadman

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that`s why guys like eddie and spy propagandize it.......the quislings with an agenda try and spin it to make the gullible think that the gov`t is spying on it`s citizens....

to what end?...wheres that evidence?....

crickets...

Another convenient argument - prove something that is secret, hidden, and can be engaged in without oversight or reporting? That's the whole point...but you refuse or neglect to see the point. But, since you ask for proof - apparently there is starting to be some, despite the best efforts of this administration (who we all know cannot be believed at this point, whether we admit it in this forum or not)...and at what point will that matter to you? It probably won't which is another story, and reason why the people who support this are in some ways Anti-American themselves - supporting the same kind of behavior that we say is unbelievable and animalistic. Here you go:

Documents show Pentagon now using FBI to spy on Americans
Associated Press
Published: Wednesday April 2, 2008

ACLU obtains documents after suit over National Security Letters

The military is using the FBI to skirt legal restrictions on domestic surveillance to obtain private records of Americans' Internet service providers, financial institutions and telephone companies, according to Pentagon documents.

The American Civil Liberties Union expressed outrage at the new revelations, based its conclusion on a review of more than 1,000 documents turned over by the Defense Department after it sued the agency last year for documents related to national security letters, or NSLs, investigative tools used to compel businesses to turn over customer information without a judge's order or grand jury subpoena.

"Newly unredacted documents released today reveal that the Department of Defense is using the FBI to circumvent legal limits on its own NSL power," said the ACLU, whose lawsuit was filed in Manhattan federal court.

ACLU lawyer Melissa Goodman said the documents the civil rights group studied "make us incredibly concerned." She said it would be understandable if the military relied on help from the FBI on joint investigations, but not when the FBI was not involved in a probe.

The FBI referred requests for comment Tuesday to the Defense Department. A department spokesman, Air Force Lt. Col. Patrick Ryder, said in an e-mail that the department had made "focused, limited and judicious" use of the letters since Congress extended the capability to investigatory entities other than the FBI in 2001.

He said the department had acted legally in using a necessary investigatory tool and noted that "unusual financial activity of people affiliated with DoD can be an indication of potential espionage or terrorist-related activity."

Ryder said the information in the ACLU claims came in part from an internal review of DoD's use of the letters.

"We have since developed training and provided it to the services for their use," he said.

He said that there was no law requiring it to track use of the letters but that the department had decided it was in its best interest to do so.

Goodman, a staff attorney with the ACLU National Security Project, said the military is allowed to demand financial and credit records in certain instances but does not have the authority to get e-mail and phone records or lists of Web sites that people have visited. That is the kind of information that the FBI can get by using a national security letter, she said.

"That's why we're particularly concerned. The DoD may be accessing the kinds of records they are not allowed to get," she said.

Goodman also noted that legal limits are placed on the Defense Department "because the military doing domestic investigations tends to make us leery."

In other allegations, the ACLU said:

_ The Navy's use of the letters to demand domestic records has increased significantly since the Sept. 11 attacks.

_ The military wrongly claimed its use of the letters was limited to investigating only Defense Department employees.

_ The Defense Department has not kept track of how many national security letters the military issues or what information it obtained through the orders.

_ The military provided misleading information to Congress and silenced letter recipients from speaking out about the records requests.

Goodman said Congress should provide stricter guidelines and meaningful oversight of how the military and FBI make national security letter requests.

"Any government agency's ability to demand these kinds of personal, financial or Internet records in the United States is an intrusive surveillance power," she said.

Pentagon expected to close Rumsfeld-sparked spy office

"The Pentagon is expected to shut a controversial intelligence office that has drawn fire from lawmakers and civil liberties groups who charge that it was part of an effort by the Defense Department to expand into domestic spying," the New York Times reports Wednesday. "The move, government officials say, is part of a broad effort under Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates to review, overhaul and, in some cases, dismantle an intelligence architecture built by his predecessor, Donald H. Rumsfeld."

"The intelligence unit, called the Counterintelligence Field Activity office, was created by Mr. Rumsfeld after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks as part of an effort to counter the operations of foreign intelligence services and terror groups inside the United States and abroad," the Times adds. "Yet the office, whose size and budget is classified, came under fierce criticism in 2005 after it was disclosed that it was managing a database that included information about antiwar protests planned at churches, schools and Quaker meeting halls."
 

DOGS THAT BARK

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Wayne:

This is an example of the points I've been railing about with you for years. 9-11 gave Bush carte blanche to load up the executive branch with extraordinary, unchecked power. No judicial supervision. This country sat back and let him do it under the guise of national security. He was a dangerous man to have in the presidency at the wrong time. He abused his power.

You and I will disagree on this till our dying day, but I believe our national security would have been protected, EVEN MORE SO, had he stayed within the rule of law, instead of acting like a terrorist himself and attempting to beat the answers out of everyone instead of OUTSMART the bad guys.

Believe it or not, I want the terrorists as bad as you do. I just don't believe in alienating the majority of the world will accomplish that goal. And by the way, you can't prove a negative with a negative. In other words, it is not a necessary correlation between no major terrorist attack on US soil since 9-11 and the Bush policy.

We will all pay for Bush's failure to follow the law.

Eddie

You been reading too much liberal media Edward.
Consider our prime areas of concern in world opinion--now consider which side of the fence--Iraq-Pakistan-Afgan-Lybia-Yemen- stood pre Iraq invasion--and where they stand now--
In addition there were numerous protests throughout Muslim world right after invasion--After A-Q was exposed as random killers they are--and Muslim world saw we helped form democracy in Iraq and not there to take over country--the only protests you see now are from liberal elements inside the U.S.--think about it!
 

Chadman

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Is it considered torture when you keep people in solitary confinement for months and years after being proven (by your own people) that they aren't guilty of anything - and maybe were simple victims of greed, promoted by payments to opportunists from our country? I wonder how you would feel if you were traveling abroad, were seized, and sold to another country, and then held indefinitely, etc?

Cleared But Still Held in Guant?namo

The Ordeal of Moroccan Prisoner Said al-Boujaadia

By ANDY WORTHINGTON

There are, at conservative estimates, at least 50 prisoners in Guant?namo who have been cleared for release by military review boards from 2005 to the present day, but who are still held in appalling isolation. The majority are held in Camp VI, a maximum-security cell block, completed in December 2006, where they remain for 22 to 23 hours a day in solitary confinement, in metal cells without windows. They have no opportunity to socialize with other cleared prisoners, have extremely limited opportunities for education or entertainment (no TV, no radio, and limited access to books), and their ability to communicate with their families by letter is subject to the whims of the authorities, who frequently delay the delivery of letters or misplace them altogether.

In the cases of dozens of these prisoners -- from countries including Algeria, China, Libya, Tunisia and Uzbekistan -- they continue to be held because the Bush administration (which is usually more than willing to shred its international obligations) has, for the most part, agreed to be bound by international treaties preventing the return of foreign nationals to countries where they face the risk of torture, although there are notable exceptions.

Last year, in an attempt to bypass its obligations, the US administration signed a "memorandum of understanding" with the government of Tunisia, which purported to guarantee the humane treatment of cleared prisoners released from Guant?namo, even though Tunisia is regularly condemned for endemic human rights abuses by the US State Department. When two men -- Lotfi Lagha and Abdullah bin Omar (aka Abdullah al-Hajji) -- were returned to Tunisia from Guant?namo, they were reportedly subjected to ill-treatment in Tunisian custody, and were then convicted and imprisoned in trials that were regarded by observers as woefully inadequate. A US District judge then intervened to prevent the return of a third cleared Tunisian, Mohammed Abdul Rahman, and another court recently intervened to prevent the return of another cleared prisoner, Ahmed Belbacha, to Algeria, another country with which the administration has been pursuing dubious "diplomatic assurances" of humane treatment.

While these cases account for the majority of the cleared prisoners who are still held in Guant?namo, others have been overlooked for other reasons, and one of these men is Moroccan national Said al-Boujaadia.

A father of three, al-Boujaadia, who is 39 years old, is from Casablanca. In 2001, he traveled to Afghanistan with his Afghan wife, whom he had met and married on a previous visit, and their three children. In the chaos that followed the US-led invasion in October 2001, he managed to secure the safe escape of his family, but was himself captured, as he attempted to help another family cross the Pakistani border to safety.

Hundreds of prisoners in Guant?namo Bay were seized at this time in a similar manner, and it has since become apparent that many were then sold by their Afghan captors to US forces, who were offering bounty rewards, averaging $5,000 a head, for al-Qaeda or Taliban suspects. When offered these rewards, many of the Americans' allies seized stray foreigners, in the knowledge that they could be packaged as "terror suspects" and sold.

Al-Boujaadia was cleared for release from Guant?namo in late 2006, when a military review board decided that he did not pose a threat to the United States or its allies -- including Morocco. He was reportedly scheduled to leave Guant?namo in April 2007, with another cleared prisoner, Ahmed Errachidi. At the last minute, however, while Errachidi was flown to Morocco to be reunited with his family, the US military decided to keep al-Boujaadia at the prison, not because of anything he had done, but because he had been requested as a witness at the trial by military commission of another prisoner, Salim Hamdan, a Yemeni who had been a driver for Osama bin Laden.

Hamdan's defense counsel offered alternatives that would have allowed al-Boujaadia to be released. These included videotaping a statement from him, or allowing him to testify from Morocco, but these options were all refused. The authorities continued to hold al-Boujaadia and failed even to explain to his lawyers, or to al-Boujaadia himself, that he was being held because he was required as a witness.

On December 6, 2007, al-Boujaadia finally testified on Hamdan's behalf. Despite an eight-month wait, it was clear that he had little to offer, and that Hamdan's defense counsel had acted correctly in trying to find ways to allow him to make a statement without having to remain in Guant?namo. Although he was seized on the same day as Hamdan, al-Boujaadia recalled only that the first time he saw Hamdan was when he was taken to a makeshift Afghan prison and found Hamdan lying face down on the floor. In response to further questioning, he explained that he had no idea whether Hamdan was an al-Qaeda member, and that he had not seen his car, which allegedly contained a number of rockets.

Since he has already given his testimony, there has been no reason for the US authorities to continue holding Said al-Boujaadia, but four months later he remains in Guant?namo, still separated from his family, and with no indication of when, if ever, he will finally be released.

In an attempt to address this oversight, lawyers from Reprieve, the London-based legal action charity that represents prisoners in Guant?namo, recently traveled to Morocco to raise his plight with the Moroccan government. In meetings with government representatives, and at a well-attended press conference in Rabat, Reprieve's Director, Clive Stafford Smith urged the government and the media to take action on Said al-Boujaadia's behalf. He noted that ten Moroccan prisoners had already returned home from Guant?namo Bay, and that each had been dealt with in a just and appropriate manner.

The lawyers also asked the government to assist the US authorities in their stated aim of closing the prison at Guant?namo Bay by making representations on behalf of two other Moroccan prisoners, Younis Chekkouri and Abdullatif Nasser, who have not yet been cleared for release.

Younis Chekkouri, who is 39 years old, traveled to Afghanistan in 2001, with his Algerian wife, after many years in Pakistan, where he had first traveled in search of work and education. The couple lived on the outskirts of Kabul, working for a charity that ran a guest house and helped young Moroccan immigrants, and had no involvement whatsoever in the country's conflicts. Chekkouri has repeatedly explained that he was profoundly disillusioned by the fighting amongst Muslims that has plagued Afghanistan's recent history, and has also expressed his implacable opposition to the havoc wreaked on the country by Osama bin Laden. In his military tribunal in Guant?namo, he described bin Laden as "a crazy person," adding that "what he does is bad for Islam."

Abdullatif Nasser, who is 43 years old, had worked as a small-scale businessman in Libya and Sudan, and had also spent time in Yemen and Pakistan. He was captured in Afghanistan in late 2001, and has explained that he was attracted to the country because of its Islamic scholars and its piety. In Guant?namo, he has experienced particularly harsh treatment, because he stands up for the rights of his fellow prisoners, and refuses to keep silent in the face of injustice.

All three men are represented by Reprieve, and Clive Stafford Smith made it clear, both in public, and in representations to the King and the government, that they are all happy to submit to any investigations that the Moroccan government thinks appropriate. "The men are perfectly willing to stand trial to face any charges your government feels are warranted," he explained to Moroccan officials. "They have been asking for a trial, after all, for six years. These men merely seek justice -- justice denied them for far too long by the American government."
 

escarzamd

...abides.
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Dec 26, 2003
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Wayne:

This is an example of the points I've been railing about with you for years. 9-11 gave Bush carte blanche to load up the executive branch with extraordinary, unchecked power. No judicial supervision. This country sat back and let him do it under the guise of national security. He was a dangerous man to have in the presidency at the wrong time. He abused his power.

You and I will disagree on this till our dying day, but I believe our national security would have been protected, EVEN MORE SO, had he stayed within the rule of law, instead of acting like a terrorist himself and attempting to beat the answers out of everyone instead of OUTSMART the bad guys.

Believe it or not, I want the terrorists as bad as you do. I just don't believe in alienating the majority of the world will accomplish that goal. And by the way, you can't prove a negative with a negative. In other words, it is not a necessary correlation between no major terrorist attack on US soil since 9-11 and the Bush policy.

We will all pay for Bush's failure to follow the law.

Eddie


......post hoc, ergo propter hoc I think? Its the foundation of the administration's entire argument, and an insult to "patriots" everywhere. I can't even go back over the research I did a month ago.........and it does pain me a bit to say it out loud (wink, wink) but Ed is speaking some truth to me:scared
 
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