W announces...

[kosar]

That we won't be leaving Iraq while he's president.

Ummmm, wtf is THAT all about??

I thought the party line was that we would leave when 'conditions on the ground dictate it.'

Or when the new Iraqi government 'can defend itself.'

Or when the Iraqi government 'asks us to leave.'

Or when Iraqi 'police/military/security forces can maintain order.'

So, it's one of two things.

1.All of the above has been total bullshit all along.

or

2. He doesn't think there's a shot in hell that any of those conditions will be met over the next 2+ years.

There can be no other option than those two.

When the new president is sworn in in January 2009, we will have been over there for 5 years and 10 months. They will still be blowing us and each other up. What a legacy this guy is gonna leave with this Iraq debacle.

 

[Nick Douglas]

Choice #2.

I gotta admit that I love Bush as a politician even though I think he is an incompetent boob. With his party about to get rolled and coming off Israel's shocking loss to Hizbullah, he comes out and simply tells it straight that we are f*cked in Iraq.

Personally, I think it's more important to actually make good decisions, but I do wish that more Democrats would learn to talk straight. It seems like all I hear from certain Democrats is whining about Bush & Co. I know that Democrats have the right ideas, but as politicians they are mostly junk.

 

[djv]

When the mission is over he said today over and over like a record skipping. Heck I thought the guy said mission accomplished about two years ago.

 

[kosar]

No comments from our 'I allow myself to be led blindly and fully support the Iraq occupation' contingent? :shrug:

 

[dr. freeze]

what is your solution?

pull out and let Iraq go to hell, Iran come in and take over?

the world economy would go in the tank as gas prices would rise exponentially as supply would decrease while demand continually increases -- while an Islamofasciist (the Iranian leader) has his power suddenly increase

China, France, and Russia immediately cater to his ass even more than they already are, and his nuclear proliferation is emboldened putting Israel and the US in even more of a quandry

gas continues to increase as workers would have to be paid more to get it, more security would have to be hired to transport/harvest it, and as the costs increase to ship a barrel over here, costs climb even higher because of fuel itself

there is no solution other than to stay there and occupy as bad as that might seem, it is the best proposed solution

if you see a better solution with better outcomes in withdrawing, show us

if not, then shut up because just as many democrats authorized the war when it was popular to do so

if you were a Buchanan or peacenik and opposed the war in the first place, then do your best at thinking of a solution because all these accusations and partisan bickering do is make the situation worse

my best solution is to continue to occupy and keep it as stable as we can while buying time to develop alternative fuel technology -- which poster "kosar" seems to ridicule.....i believe we should spend a tremendous amount of resources right now as a national defense initiative and quit bickering about garbage such as funding stem cell research and the like which the government should not be in the business of doing anywhere near a high priority

 

[RAYMOND]

what is your solution?

pull out and let Iraq go to hell, Iran come in and take over?

the world economy would go in the tank as gas prices would rise exponentially as supply would decrease while demand continually increases -- while an Islamofasciist (the Iranian leader) has his power suddenly increase

China, France, and Russia immediately cater to his ass even more than they already are, and his nuclear proliferation is emboldened putting Israel and the US in even more of a quandry

gas continues to increase as workers would have to be paid more to get it, more security would have to be hired to transport/harvest it, and as the costs increase to ship a barrel over here, costs climb even higher because of fuel itself

there is no solution other than to stay there and occupy as bad as that might seem, it is the best proposed solution

if you see a better solution with better outcomes in withdrawing, show us

if not, then shut up because just as many democrats authorized the war when it was popular to do so

if you were a Buchanan or peacenik and opposed the war in the first place, then do your best at thinking of a solution because all these accusations and partisan bickering do is make the situation worse

my best solution is to continue to occupy and keep it as stable as we can while buying time to develop alternative fuel technology -- which poster "kosar" seems to ridicule.....i believe we should spend a tremendous amount of resources right now as a national defense initiative and quit bickering about garbage such as funding stem cell research and the like which the government should not be in the business of doing anywhere near a high priority

:thumb: :thumb:

 

[dr. freeze]

what kind of leader does America want?

One which says "if the going gets tough, we will run out with our tail between our legs and surrendur the fort while other islamofasciists get more power to bully us around?"

do you lefties fully underestimate the power of propaganda and its influence in history???

why is the press not pro-America and use its influence to rally us around the cause in the midst of stife while this is the ONLY feasible solution instead of this continuous campaign to demoralize the country and embolden our enemies???

 

[Jabberwocky]

"there is no solution other than to stay there and occupy as bad as that might seem, it is the best proposed solution

if you see a better solution with better outcomes in withdrawing, show us

if not, then shut up because just as many democrats authorized the war when it was popular to do so

if you were a Buchanan or peacenik and opposed the war in the first place, then do your best at thinking of a solution because all these accusations and partisan bickering do is make the situation worse

my best solution is to continue to occupy and keep it as stable as we can while buying time to develop alternative fuel technology -- which poster "kosar" seems to ridicule.....i believe we should spend a tremendous amount of resources right now as a national defense initiative and quit bickering about garbage such as funding stem cell research and the like which the government should not be in the business of doing anywhere near a high priority"

Freeze, as you know, we do not see eye to eye on alot of things. But you make some very good points in this post. I did not support the war, and I still do not. However, the task is now to figure out where to go from here. The "I told you so" rhetoric from the Dems who supported this war without offering a clear vision of what to do now is total crap. If we can all agree on an all-out, American effort to get behind alternative energy solutions and quit sending our US dollars to the middle east to fund these thugs then I think we have a chance. In the meantime, to cut and run would make a bad situation worse. It is a very tough proposition, but we are there and we have to move forward in an intelligent way. I truly believe that all the partisan bickering is getting in the way of clear thought and action about what is in all of our best interests.

 

[kosar]

what is your solution?

pull out and let Iraq go to hell, Iran come in and take over?

Freeze,

You may be a little slow on the uptake(and water is wet), but Iran has already 'taken over.' At least in the sense that they are fueling and arming a neverending insurgency and also are enjoying a new shia Iraqi government and a huge shia population in Iraq.

If we leave tomorrow or in ten years, they will have great influence over the Iraqi government. They will, directly or indirectly(as in, the Iraqi government leaders wants to stay in power and stay alive) dictate Iraqi policy once we leave.

There is nothing we can do about it. Nothing. This is our doing and it's irreversible.

Iran is not ever going to 'come in and take over' in Iraq. Why would they? They don't need to 'come in.' They're all set.

I agree with your alternative fuel thoughts, but I really have a hard time seeing how staying in Iraq has anything to do with that.

It's amazing how some people still don't realize that the longer we stay in Iraq, the happier Iran, Al-Qaeda, etc... really are.

This is their wet dream, buddy.

There is no downside for them whatsoever. At all.

 

[dr. freeze]

completely disagree

Al Quaeda would like nothing more than to further destabilize the entire country after we left and destabilize the entire world's oil supply

as of now we have the oild fields STABILIZED and out of IRANIAN CONTROL

if we withdraw, we lose this and the whole country is thrown into chaos instead of this being limited to a few areas

there is no viable option to withdraw, it would be a HUGE mistake

the media, isolationists, democrats need to get behind us and start becoming a weapon FOR us FOR STABILITY as they will be in deep crap with all of us if this gets out of hand

if you think that all this partisan bickering in the US as well as continuous media attack against Bush is not hurting the peace/stability teffort that is your pipe dream that cannot be cured

there is no other alternative other than to get on board and support what we are doing -- withdraw and Iran gets out their trump card and becomes even more of a force if US troops are not next door especially after we leave with our tail between our legs -- and if you think at that point France, China and the Ruskies are going to help you are having another pipe dream

then N Korea gets bolder too -- its a chain reaction that must not take place

oil will escalate, we will see an arms race with the potential of arms getting in the wrong hands which will make the Bay of Pigs look like ring around the rosy

 

[kosar]

Lemme ask you this, Freeze.

After how many years of us being there would you say that 'this just isn't possible?'

I submit that it is NOT possible to turn a 70% shia country cloesely aligned with Iran into an ally of America. Into a peaceful democracy with a 20% Sunni population that also hates us because we destroyed their relatively cushy way of life.

The 10% Kurds like us and support us. With that and a token, I could get on the subway.

You suggest again that Iran will go into Iraq after we leave. No way. They DO NOT NEED TO and it would be eminently counter-productive for them to do so.

Our presence is not stopping an Iranian invasion of Iraq, because there is no reason at all for them to do it. They will be fast friends, no matter when we leave.

Our presence is OBVIOUSLY no deterrent to Iran. They are turning inspectors away(today) and are generally saying that they really don't give a shit what America or the UN says.

So us being 'next door' really has no meaningful result regarding Iran.

I'm glad that you're willing to sacrifice our young men and women to buy time for alternative fuels, apparently indefinitely, when there is no such 'alternative fuel' program in the works.

 

[dr. freeze]

you are completely wrong

we and AMERICAN COMPANIES control the oil in Iraq

the current regime is AMERICAN FRIENDLY

if we lose, it becomes a puppet for Iran and you can bet that if Iran gets Nukes, we are OUT of Iraq, and now that guy has us in HUGE bind and our national security is at stake

THAT is reason for us to stay there and keep it somewhat stable

and we need the country to rally behind this effort

things are not nearly as bad as you would seem to portray as tons of work is being done in the region by American companies

we lose that and proliferation continues -- our mere presence in the region forces Russia, China, and France among other to help the effort to hold Iran in check -- we get out and they cater to the real power player -- Iran

the world economy goes down, nuclear proliferation dominates which WILL get in the wrong hands and Israel and America are in BIG trouble

we have to buy as much time as we can and yes short term stability is NOT unrealistic -- as in decades -- as you might make it sound -- rather i think its very practical as the current generation will get tired of fighting after a while

your option of leaving puts America in extreme and dire danger and thus yes that is justification in and beyond to stay there

 

[smurphy]

:thumb: :thumb:

When Raymond is giving you the enthusiastic thumbs up, ....you might be a redneck.

 

[StevieD]

Why should the crooked or at best inebt creeps that got us into this mess get to decide the future?

 

[shamrock]

that is funny, I thought this war had nothing to do with OIL.

 

[Jabberwocky]

to my free thinking friends (Smurph, Kos, Chad, you know who you are)...disregard the idiotic premise, disregard the idiotic action..is everyone ok with total withdrawl? Save me from agreement with Dick "Darth" Cheney on some sort of twisted, Machiavellian terms.

oh yeah, and Sham...think it up and pass it to Hillary...

 

[Jabberwocky]

that is funny, I thought this war had nothing to do with OIL.

it was just because they care Shamr....gwb used to sit up late at night and say damn't...those iraqs should be free....to eat mcdonalds...then one day, he didn't wake up...cause North Korea nuked the DC....

:sadwave: :sadwave:

 

[dr. freeze]

that is funny, I thought this war had nothing to do with OIL.

for those of you who are totally lost in the propaganda war

it has ALL to do with oil and its stability thereof

we have moral clarity to protect the worlds oil supply because we do not want some madman to hold the world in bondage as is possible if Iran gets control of the Iraqi oil fields and quite possible Kuwait if we leave the region. This will ultimately hurt our economy to the nth degree and also the entire western world. The western world, if you have not noticed, has kept millions of people from dying due to dictators, religion, etc. etc. and also has provided health care and food to at least a billion of people. If the west suffers, the world suffers. Also, along with our economy in shambles, our security would then follow as an Islamofasciist fanatic now holds more cards than he already does and Russia, China and the leftists in the EU holding on to their power would rather cater to them than us. The United States, Britain, Aussies, and to some extent most of Western Europe stand for freedom and liberty still even in this day and age. Our innovation has done a lot for the world and oil production and rifinery is a thin strand that is our weakest break point which we MUST protect or REPLACE.

Now that I have moral authority established -- for those of you that still doubt we can debate further (that the US is RIGHT to secure the oil fields from madman and must do so to protect us and others) -- we can move to the following point.

The US must NOT use oil as a reason to be there in the media because the LEFTISTS in the media will turn this against the US and portray it as GREED. The rest of the world -- not the leaders for they know this is why we are there as much as anyone -- and so do most in the media for that matter -- will quickly lose power and be forced to act as the Arab street will quickly rally behind this media portrayel of US Greed. For those of you who do not understand the power of the Arab street and also the power of propaganda, you must realize that we CANNOT say we are there for oil. We must communicate that we are there for freedom -- which is rather a means to an end in this case.

Some think freedom CAN bring about stability in the middle east, others think it will take dictatorship. Clearly, the UAE is doing just fine and money and resources have a way of calming tempers. If we can get Iraq's standard of living up and individuals to experience profit sharing, we have that chance to get temporary peace.

 

[dr. freeze]

Elevating the Iraqi standard of living gives them incentive then to maintain stability. This will hopefully unify the country somewhat and stabilize the world's oil supply. The reason Fasciists in N Korea and Iran have to unite their people against a common enemy is to HOLD ON TO POWER as they are so dirt poor in N Korea and uninformed that they know no other option. The power of a common enemy (US) is only strengthened through the media's portrayel of GWB. If GREED becomes front and center, we are really screwed.

Right now, our troops are doing a noble thing to keep the peace. We need to get off oil and find another resource. It has become a national security issue and every Conservative in the country who ever wanted to spend a dollar on defense should want the government to invest in it. The leftists who have called for alternative energy for years and rightly so, many for reasons other than national security, should also get behind this plan. Partisan politics need to be put aside and a STRONG leader in GWB's mold MUST be elected. Unfortunately, GWB has not gone this route probably because the oil companies do not want him too. With his SUPERB leadership in being resolved in Iraq, he has this glaring weakness in that he IS probably too close to the CEO's and so is his administration. Not sure who that leader could be, but I don't see it in the clowns that are in Congress right now -- especially on the left and many of which are on the right.

One of the few who got it, just got defeated in Connecticut.

 

[shamrock]

ALAS! we arrived at the truth, no wmds, no connection with obl., no saving these poor oppressed people, it was, and always has been about oil.