looked like another shining endorsement for Senator Bidens alternatives plan for Iraq.
http://planforiraq.com/
http://planforiraq.com/
Well, that 60 minute piece on A DIFFERENT IRAQ...
- Thread starter shamrock
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Ray, how about you and me start a company, and build huge CONCRETE WALLS separating all the Kurds Sunnis and Shiites. There will be peace for all and we will be rich like Halliburton. There is nothing else to do in February anyway.:00hour
never work, you guys would want to much money. If you even try to ask for more than three dollars an hour you ass will be sent right back home. Halliburton uses a lot of african workers. When someone pressed them on this on why they hired these workers, the boys from halliburton said that the africans are use to making low wages in africa. I think they were getting about 75 cents an hour.
i have to give Biden some credit for trying
now if only the dems would have some nuts and put this on the floor as a viable alternative towards what is going on now instead of wasting everyone's time with "symbolic votes" which does nothing but hurt the effort in the long run
would like to see an honest debate on the floor -- maybe eliminate the cameras and throw the press out and see if we can get anything positive out of the legislative branch which we haven't had since the mid 90's
now if only the dems would have some nuts and put this on the floor as a viable alternative towards what is going on now instead of wasting everyone's time with "symbolic votes" which does nothing but hurt the effort in the long run
would like to see an honest debate on the floor -- maybe eliminate the cameras and throw the press out and see if we can get anything positive out of the legislative branch which we haven't had since the mid 90's
Turkey would have a huge problem with a independant Kurdistan. How do you suppose we resolve that?
Turkey doesn't have the right to deny the Kurds (outside of Turkey's existing border) a nation.
The Kurdish situation is the best thing to come from our invasion. We should encourage them in any way possible. They overwhelmingly want to work with us - it's something we shouldn't take for granted.
The Kurdish situation is the best thing to come from our invasion. We should encourage them in any way possible. They overwhelmingly want to work with us - it's something we shouldn't take for granted.
Shamrock--Have been seeing what you saw last night for for a couple of years now on diff news outlet. Let me take you back to right after Biden came out with plan---
#34 10-09-2006, 12:36 PM
DOGS THAT BARK
Registered User Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Bowling Green Ky
Posts: 10,361
Would agree much of dem is not on far left--unfortunately that is where their funding is coming from--that back the liberal players-liberal blogs ect--and makes party appear one dimensional.
With Dean-Peloski-and the Mass maniac's of Kennedy and Kerry getting all the press--it relects a single dimension on the party.
I made note in thread here bout week ago on Biden coming up with alternate plan in Iraq that I thought was pretty innovative--have not heard much about it since but believe we will. That what Dems need more of--solutions rather than complaints after the fact.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Now on 60 minutes--Thought they did good job with one exception- failing to ask one important question to the the Kurds--and that being --
what they thought about the Dems current view that their liberation was not worth it--and if they could go back--they would prefer Saddam in power.
---and while on liberation--wonder how our current Dem contenders would have voted one liberating Kuwait.
I am with you and have been for some time Smurph --on Kurdistan issue
Not just in Kurdistan but many areas--Is much easier and effective keeping undesirables out than trying to change a leopards spots-
#34 10-09-2006, 12:36 PM
DOGS THAT BARK
Registered User Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Bowling Green Ky
Posts: 10,361
Would agree much of dem is not on far left--unfortunately that is where their funding is coming from--that back the liberal players-liberal blogs ect--and makes party appear one dimensional.
With Dean-Peloski-and the Mass maniac's of Kennedy and Kerry getting all the press--it relects a single dimension on the party.
I made note in thread here bout week ago on Biden coming up with alternate plan in Iraq that I thought was pretty innovative--have not heard much about it since but believe we will. That what Dems need more of--solutions rather than complaints after the fact.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Now on 60 minutes--Thought they did good job with one exception- failing to ask one important question to the the Kurds--and that being --
what they thought about the Dems current view that their liberation was not worth it--and if they could go back--they would prefer Saddam in power.
---and while on liberation--wonder how our current Dem contenders would have voted one liberating Kuwait.
I am with you and have been for some time Smurph --on Kurdistan issue
Not just in Kurdistan but many areas--Is much easier and effective keeping undesirables out than trying to change a leopards spots-
What would the point be in doing that? Ridiculous. If we do that, then we might as well ask every single family member and friend of our fallen soldiers if their death was worth it. And we might as well ask every family memeber and friend of every Iraqi killed since Mar 2003 what they think about Dems who feel the invasion was a mistake - yeah, maybe a different attitude there....you know, ask those questions just to be completely stupid.
I've never been of the belief that nothing good came from our war. The Kurdish liberation is something very good. In a sea of bad strategy and other misery, at least there is Kurdistan.
Not sure...maybe you have some links to objectors from the current contenders?
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I understand your point Chad---but what if we ran into probs on Kuwait--how many months would have had to pass until we heard same drum beat from the left.
Unless you can convince me the difference between invading Kuwait and gasing Kurds plus mass killing of Shites--I'm saying the cause is not the issue--its the agenda.
Same as the wailing on 1,000's of civilian casualties because of war in Viet Nam and not a peep spoken on the million plus slaughtered as result of our being forced to pull out.
It wasn't the deaths that were really an issue --same situation here--left would be cheering and claiming victory if we pulled out tomorrow and entire Kurdish population was wiped out the following year.
Out of curiousity were any here that watch CNN CNBC ect ever aware of the peaceful parts of Iraq before 60 minutes episode--or did you think it was some propaganda made up by conservatives?
Unless you can convince me the difference between invading Kuwait and gasing Kurds plus mass killing of Shites--I'm saying the cause is not the issue--its the agenda.
Same as the wailing on 1,000's of civilian casualties because of war in Viet Nam and not a peep spoken on the million plus slaughtered as result of our being forced to pull out.
It wasn't the deaths that were really an issue --same situation here--left would be cheering and claiming victory if we pulled out tomorrow and entire Kurdish population was wiped out the following year.
Out of curiousity were any here that watch CNN CNBC ect ever aware of the peaceful parts of Iraq before 60 minutes episode--or did you think it was some propaganda made up by conservatives?
I think pretty much everyone who posts this forum was aware of the successes in Kurdistan. I'm sure Kurdistan is mentioned by CNN as much as FOX - maybe more because CNN has more things on it that are *news*.
But as has been pointed out, the Kurds are less than 20% of the population, and somewhat isolated by geography from the Shiites and Sunnis. It was never an issue about them. They were never opposed to us and probably never will be.
DTB - Do you think we should support their independence right now? Do you think Iraq should be unified at all cost?
But as has been pointed out, the Kurds are less than 20% of the population, and somewhat isolated by geography from the Shiites and Sunnis. It was never an issue about them. They were never opposed to us and probably never will be.
DTB - Do you think we should support their independence right now? Do you think Iraq should be unified at all cost?
1st to answer your questions
I would absolutely be for independence of Kurds at some point in time
I do not think Iraq should be unified at all cost--if the cost is on our shoulders.
After fall of Baghdad I would have anticipated some rivalry between the Sunni's and Shites but would have assumed short term--per shear #'s of each--the ongoing rift fueled to big extent by terrorist--I did not see.
After it became obvious I would not have waiting this long to give Iraq'i gov ultimadum--get your shit together or else.
I would give new objective 3 months max to see if it works--if not--I would turn complete security of Baghdad and volitile areas over to Iraq with only U.S. participation -a fortified green zone with air support --and special forces in hunting terrorist--Stopping bombers is impossible--and brunt of our casualities have been from road side bombs on miltary patrols. I would stop all U.S. patrols in areas of civil strife..
I would salvage achievements from war and concentrate on building on them--and put brunt of internal chaos where it belongs--on the iraq'is
Would take bulk of troops to protect and help Kurds and other peaceful areas. Would also televise success in these areas daily in Baghdad--so they can get clear pic of how life can be--if they live together and team up against the terrorist.
In event of worse case scenerio--we still come away with strong ally in the Kurds and add one more stragetic ally/area in middle east.
Sooner or later I would have to think general population of these countries would have to look at Kuwait-Kurds ect and realize there is a better way--than following fantics
I would absolutely be for independence of Kurds at some point in time
I do not think Iraq should be unified at all cost--if the cost is on our shoulders.
After fall of Baghdad I would have anticipated some rivalry between the Sunni's and Shites but would have assumed short term--per shear #'s of each--the ongoing rift fueled to big extent by terrorist--I did not see.
After it became obvious I would not have waiting this long to give Iraq'i gov ultimadum--get your shit together or else.
I would give new objective 3 months max to see if it works--if not--I would turn complete security of Baghdad and volitile areas over to Iraq with only U.S. participation -a fortified green zone with air support --and special forces in hunting terrorist--Stopping bombers is impossible--and brunt of our casualities have been from road side bombs on miltary patrols. I would stop all U.S. patrols in areas of civil strife..
I would salvage achievements from war and concentrate on building on them--and put brunt of internal chaos where it belongs--on the iraq'is
Would take bulk of troops to protect and help Kurds and other peaceful areas. Would also televise success in these areas daily in Baghdad--so they can get clear pic of how life can be--if they live together and team up against the terrorist.
In event of worse case scenerio--we still come away with strong ally in the Kurds and add one more stragetic ally/area in middle east.
Sooner or later I would have to think general population of these countries would have to look at Kuwait-Kurds ect and realize there is a better way--than following fantics
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Thank God you are for the independence of the Kurds, I'm sure they will be happy to hear that. I think they will return the favor and support you independence also.
All I can say, Wayne, is that I don't think you would have seen the negative outcry if the hypothetical you provide about Kuwait happened compared to what you see with Iraq - seems like pretty dissimilar situations, to me. I don't think the administration lied to the public (or hid information, if you prefer) in that situation, but maybe they did. As for Vietnam, I don't consider myself knowledgeable enough about that to have a good opinion.
I do think, however, the fact that we undoubtedly were protecting and supporting Saudi Arabia in the Gulf War might be a huge reason for our rushing so quickly to the defense of Kuwait. Plenty of info on the ties between the Saudis and the current administration, so...maybe you SHOULD have a point in that regard. Maybe BOTH should have been much more closely examined for motivation...I dunno.
I do think, however, the fact that we undoubtedly were protecting and supporting Saudi Arabia in the Gulf War might be a huge reason for our rushing so quickly to the defense of Kuwait. Plenty of info on the ties between the Saudis and the current administration, so...maybe you SHOULD have a point in that regard. Maybe BOTH should have been much more closely examined for motivation...I dunno.
