the new tax

[Kdogg21]

i read some interesting articles about this, but I would be suprised if Bush did this, but it makes you wonder if he would...


CARSON, Calif. ? John Kerry (search) said Thursday that President Bush's musing about a national sales tax (search) is an insult to financially struggling voters and would amount to "one of the largest tax increases on the middle class in American history."

The Democratic presidential nominee, during a speech at California State University, Dominguez Hills, tried to reverse partisan stereotypes by portraying the Republican president as the tax raiser and himself as a tax cutter.

Kerry said if Bush wants to create a national sales tax without increasing the deficit, people will end up paying at least 26 percent more for purchases on top of state and local sales taxes.

"We know exactly who that's going to hurt," Kerry said. "That's going to hurt small business. It's going to hurt jobs. It's going to hit the pocketbooks of those who need and deserve tax relief most in America."

Bush has suggested that overhauling the tax code would be a second-term priority if he is re-elected. While campaigning in Florida (search) Tuesday, he said replacing the income tax with a federal sales tax is "an interesting idea that we ought to explore seriously."

Kerry seized on Bush's comments even as White House officials downplayed the idea and denied that any such plan is under consideration

 

[Kdogg21]

Kerry said Bush has failed to offer a plan for improving the economy in his second term. He said the president's tax cuts have resulted in a tax increase on the middle class because their state and local taxes have been increased to compensate for loss of revenue from the federal government. He said a national sales tax would only further burden the middle class.

"I call it one of the largest tax increases on the middle class in American history," Kerry said. "And this is coming from an administration that has offered almost no new ideas for our economy, and the few ideas that they have offered have only hurt middle class families. This new idea is no different."

Kerry repeatedly invoked the memory of better economic times under another Democratic president, Bill Clinton. He said Clinton's advisers were helping craft his economic plan and that he will be "a champion for the middle class" by cutting their taxes while lowering the deficit.

Kerry said he would offer tax breaks to help pay for health care premiums, child care and college tuition, paid for by repealing Bush's tax cuts for people earning more than $200,000 a year.

"They will go back to paying the same taxes they paid when Bill Clinton was president," Kerry said. "That was a time when every American got richer."

Bush campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt said Kerry cannot pay for his tax plan.

"John Kerry's numbers don't add up," Schmidt said. "He has spent his tax hike more times than anyone can keep track of."

Kerry was also fighting the Bush campaign's charge that Kerry has a long history of voting for higher taxes during his 19-year career in the Senate.

 

[Kdogg21]

a brief example i read.......


Bush's Sales Tax is ... well ... flat
Although he hasn't formally proposed a national sales tax, I find it interesting that W is even publicly considering a national sales tax.
This shows just how much trouble he thinks he'll get from Kerry in the election.

A national sales tax is simply a form of flat tax, although it likely favors the wealthy far more than a flat income tax. Over the course of my many years, I've grown from a flat-tax proponent to a flat-tax opponent. Here's why...

Take two individuals: Bob makes $20K per year, and Sam makes $100K per year. If the income tax system was abolished, and replaced with a national income tax, of .. say .. 30%, clearly Sam will pay more than Bob. (Sam pays $30K in taxes, and Bob pays $6K.) So, the rich man has the higher tax burden - so why punish him more for his success?

Well, after taxes, Bob has only $14K to spend on housing, food, clothing, education, transportation, insurance, etc. (we'll call these staples). If anyone's ever tried to live on $14K, you'll agree that it's close to impossible, particularly if you have a family. On the other hand, Sam still has $70K to spend on the same items. Yes, he may want a brand new computer, a new car, and a big-screen TV, but he doesn't need them, despite what the sales rep at Best Buy says. So let's assume that if Bob can live on $14K, then Sam could too.

If this is true, now look at a national sales tax -- you can only limit your discretionary expenditures, not your necessities. Bob now has $20K to spend, not $14K, and Sam has $100K to spend. So Bob would be taxed on 70% of his income, whereas Sam would only be taxed on 14% for necessities. Now, we're certain that Sam will spend more than 14K, and be taxed on this discretionary income, but this scenario would encourage him to save more to avoid such taxes. Let's assume he saves 15% of his income, and spends the rest...

Under the income tax scenario, we required $36K in tax, and we would expect that a national sales tax must recover at least as much as the previous income tax. Together, Sam and Bob will spend $105K ($85K + $20K). This implies a 34.3% sales tax is required to keep the same amount of money flowing into the national treasury. Not only will this increase the effective tax on Bob (+4.3%), but it would also decrease the effective tax on Sam (-0.8%). But such a tax would probably also have the chilling effect of encouraging Sam to reduce his spending, since each additional item he purchases would be 34.3% higher. Don't get me started on inflationary incomes...

Anyway, I know this is overly simplified - it's a blog for crying out loud, not a dissertation. But in any event, don't buy the bull about a national sales tax - it's bad for the economy and a huge mistake for W to push right now.

 

[CHARLESMANSON]

KDOGGG-----mind if I ask you a question about your rediculously lame filibuster????

Explain this....

you said....Bush is afraid of the "trouble Kerry will give him in the election"!!!!!!!!!????? ??????
:142lmao: Where are you getting your facts from???!!!!
LOL I'd love to just at least hear you back that one up. just that one ok? (yeah right lol)

:142lmao: more aimless drunken banter from you


"Kerry said this....Kerry said that"....man are you high???........Kerry also said that "The US needs to do what we have to do, to remove Saddam Hussein from power".......hmmmmmm....???? :clap:

From what I understand John Kerry has all these great ideas but the only way to fund all of them is to raise taxes. So you wouldn't be surprised if Bush raised taxes but if Kerry ended up doing it, it would be ok right?

 

[CHARLESMANSON]

And come on, what are you doing talking about a national sales tax anyways??? Like that's REALLY going to happen!!! Man you are weird. Who cares about this obscure topic anyways???

This is just another pathetic attempt by the liberals to divert attention from the fact that Kerry has no clue what his intentions are for fighting terrorism, finding Bin Laden, Reviving Iraq, dealing with North Korea, dealing with Iran and protecting the US homeland. He is aimless!!!! He still won't tell us ANYTHING!
And you are concerned about a national sales tax??? Are you high?

 

[DOGS THAT BARK]

I am sure the 70 million people that pay no taxes would agree with you.

What would you consider a fair tax structer?

do you consider current tax laws fair--I would assume the majority would considering they benefit but my question is do you consider this fair?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"We are approaching the point where voters adversely affected by the income tax are a minority that can be exploited to the hilt. There are 129 million taxpayers. The top 5 percent of income earners (6.5 million people) already bear 54 percent of the income tax burden. The top 25 percent (32 million people) pay 83 percent of the total personal income tax collection.
The remaining 75 percent of taxpayers (97 million people) bear only 17 percent of the income tax burden, and 70 million voters have no income tax liability whatsoever.
With 167 million voters with little or no income tax liability and 32 million burdened with 83 percent of the liability, have we achieved the tyranny of the majority? Will the political temptation to plunder the minority and to turn them into tax slaves destroy the creativity and productivity of the American economy?"
Paul Craig Roberts

 

[Chanman]

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0409.norquist.html

 

[Kdogg21]

first of all charlie, i called you out on all your lies so you have no room to talk. your the stupid idiot who keeps ridiculing on peoles opinion. you probably have no idea what a election is you piece of ****ing shit?? i ask you what bush should do with the elections in iraq and all you can come up with is, well they should go on. WOW, what a brilliant idea. you dumb ****. thats the same answer i came up with. i dont think you have any idea whats going on in politics these days. why don't you go burn some crosses on some peoples lawn or go burn a swastika in your forehead. why can't you back your facts up?? you probably can't even read. why don't you get off your mommy's nipple for a while and be a real man. you can't even come up with any of your own idea's and opinions. ooooo im a liberal and all we do is bitch and complain. you know i dont give a **** what you call me, but **** this is a free country last i checked and i can do whatever the **** i want. if i want to vote for kerry thats my doing, shit this aint the old ****ing iraq where we should only vote for 1 dictator. you act like the republican party is the greatest thing since electricity. oh wait for you manson thats the stuff that has wires, turns lights on, powers appliances. Kerry may not be the answer, but im giving it a shot. If Bush wins, big ****ing deal, im not gonna sit here and cry about like you if Kerry wins. Like i said I voted for Bush the first time, and i dont think he has done a great job,so im voting for somebody else. its called 'opinions' you freak. why don't you go pretend your in prison again and take a hotdog and stick it up your ass and say 'give it to me you prison bitch'. you are the biggest baby and you litterally cry when people talk about kerry. do you hav naked photos of Dick Cheny and Bush in your closet for some reason??? they way you act, its like your blowing them every night?? than you got a problem with me cut and pasting, **** everybody does it on this forum, whats the big ****ing problem with that? Grow up dude and respect peoples opinions for once.

 

[pirate fan]

Kdogg, what if the first $20,000 was exempt from the tax. I agree you have to somehow give people the ability to live and there also needs to be an incentive to make more. Seems to me a flat tax would be fairer, especially for the higher tax bracket people that can put money into tax free or tax sheltered investments. The big corporations have to many loopholes to use to their advantage. The majority of us middle class working stiffs would get some relief from our tax burden. Steve Forbes has presented the best policy of this so far.

 

[CHARLESMANSON]

Kdogg - LMAO you called me on what lies?? I'm the one who just asked you to back up your rediculous claim and you COULDN'T!! :142lmao:

...anytime you disagree with someone or if you are asked to back up your words you throw a hissy-fit and start calling names huh?? unreal lol

Sorry, man, it's my right to be able to prove you worng all the time. If you don't like it then don't read my posts. Maybe you should go tattle on me to MadJack. You just CANT HANG!
You do have a right to your opinions, so what? SO DO I. If you think I don't know anything about politics so be it. You are way too unimportant to begin with so who cares right?. You're just mad because you made a claim that you CANT BACK UP! and yes -Kdogg yes the elections in Iraq SHOULD GO ON!!! I'm sorry if you don't like my opinion!!! No need to start cussing and throwing a kidddie-tantrum.

 

[CHARLESMANSON]

KDOGG - Naked photos of Cheney lol?? :thinking: ....ummm ok. lay off the sauce you wino.

Still haven't heard you back up your claim that "Bush is afraid of the trouble that Kerry will give him in the elections"...

Still no answer...no wonder you threw an FBomb-laced kiddie tantrum!

:clap:

 

[ferdville]

Kdogg21 - is it possible for you to say something intelligent or even obtusely intelligent without resorting to profanity? Can you articulate your point without resorting to name calling? If you don't like what Manson is saying, why don't you just ignore him? Peppering someone with base insults and bad language is a poor substitute for conversation. I can only surmise that you wish you were 21 and may get there in about 10 years based on the pediatric dialogue you are spewing. Can we try to get some sort of mature responses in these threads without resorting to grade school name calling? A wise man once said "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

 

[CHARLESMANSON]

So true Ferdville....this guy i s pathetic. He only wants to attack me instead of talk politics because he doesn't know shit and he gets mad when he can't hang. ....and he still hasn't backed up his claim. Prob never will.

:jump:

 

[Kdogg21]

:142smilie :142smilie

back up a claim, hell you can't back up anything, but your ass to some guys unit. you can't even back up points on how bush is so great. :jump:

 

[CHARLESMANSON]

K Dogg I can only surmise that you wish you were 21 and may get there in about 10 years based on the pediatric dialogue you are spewing.

:142lmao:

 

[CHARLESMANSON]

since you are a acting like a pussy and wont back up anything.....

what would you like me to back up????...i will start a new thread and quote your ass..... :thefinger

STILL WAITING KDOGG

 

[spibble spab]

Grow up dude and respect peoples opinions for once.

hmmm. interesting point. but why cant manson
have an opinion hmmmmmmm????

should he have numbers tattooed on his arm
for what he believes?

grow up

 

[ferdville]

Manson and his murderous clan grew up during my time. He is, in fact, older than I am, but we are contemporaries. He had a large following in his day - many of whom found him to be a genius. I never believed that. He was very talented at using naive young people looking for a father figure or a hero to follow. He was a crappy musician and attempted to strong arm everyone into doing as he wanted. He was a little scrawny runt, but instilled fear in many because of his cold stare and total unpredictability. Now that he is in his sixties, perhaps he has mellowed out some. And, by the way, he never killed anyone himself. Correct me where I am wrong, Charlie.

 

[Chanman]

Thats what I remember Ferd. I think his mother was a hooker and @ the time of the Lobianco-Tate murders he had spent over half his life behind bars. I read Helter Skelter many moons ago.

 

[CHARLESMANSON]

ferdville!!!!!!!!!!

I was a crappy musician!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????

How dare you!!